Worship leader

[agedman]

Absolutely Not!

Think about it agedman.

With only an elder/minister delegating worship you have set up a community tabernacle rather than a community church

If an elder is the only one who can lead the congregation into worship...

in the absence of a minister you can’t have church...

…and can’t properly worship.​

• you can’t worship in the sharing of the Word without an elder
• you can’t worship in song
• you can’t worship in prayer
• …or in giving

You've set up another high priest.
Christians don’t need another high priest to lead us into worship; we have one in our Savor.

The church body has been gifted by the Spirit with everything necessary and beneficial (1 Cor 12:7)

Now there are different gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different ministries, but the same Lord. And there are different activities, but the same God produces each gift in each person. A manifestation of the Spirit is given to each person for the common good: 1 Corinthians 12:4–7 (CSB)​

You seem to be vesting all the gifts in the body of elders/ministers/priest.

Let the body work in a normal way, let the gifts the Spirit provides be seen and used.

Rob

Not at all, rather my statements conform to precisely what The Scriptures indicate are the qualifications of the LEADERS of the assembly.

The gathering of believers is not complete without the Lord's presence. When He is present, there are gifts and ministries that become evident. The fellowship select from those that are qualified who will be accountable for the oversight and watch care.

There is no "worship leader" outside of that which the gathering appoints of those who meet the qualifications of elder/bishop. And that appointment is a minister, evangelist, teacher, ...

11And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
Ephesians 4

The body is not built up by use in leadership of those unqualified and unappointed.

The body leadership must be both qualified by Scripture standards and appointed by the assembly.

Besides, music is but a communication tool. It is preaching by using rhythmic, melodic, harmonic form. It is more endearing to the congregation because it obliges physical and emotional response even before the intellectual response. Proper music in the assembly is in effect preaching.

 

[Reynolds]

And it seems many churches are going the way of music to get people to attend and the message
is just a minor part of the entire service.

True! Sad part is its because the messages in so many churches have become boring. Today's messages, as a whole, have lost their fire.

 

[Zenas]

Before getting too far into the debate, perhaps someone who knows can explain why the title "minister of music" was dropped and changed to "worship leader." I have a hunch why this was done, although I don't subscribe to all the theories put forth by Agedman.

 

[agedman]

In my opinion, the minister of music was actually a minister called by. God and ordained.

Over the decades, churches started getting college students to run their youth programs, and that filtered into the music, too. Often, in my opinion, these men were unqualified and some morally bankrupt but the trend had been set.

So the end has the folks embracing anyone and anything that has talent, but may not have the personal character God obliges in leadership of the assembly.

 

[saved41199]

The term "worship leader" has been a troubling term for me.

Perhaps it is not for you, but here is a short list of the problems with the term as I see it for Baptist churches.


1). It is not a Biblical office that should be leading the congregation. Only ministers (pastors, bishops, evangelists, teachers ...).

In my church, our "worship leader" is also one of the assistant pastors and principal of the school. He's more of the choir leader/conductor.

2) From the time of Sinai, worship leaders have opposed the righteousness of God in favor of idols. Even to the point of murder and riot, the worship leaders have been anti Christ. They killed the messengers of God, throughout the ages to this modern day. Baptists call their ministers - pastor, or preacher. There is significant history and rational to using those terms for the leaders of the congregation.

I have NO idea what you're going on about here.

3). The term itself suggests that a select few are to led and the focus, that worship must conform to their script and standard. In contrast, a minister of music suggests the facilitation of other's worship journey, just as a minister of the Gospel facilitates the journey in the knowledge of the Scriptures.

Our choir runs about 30/40 voices (I've never really counted) and our conductor/leader/whatever chooses the music for services and special events. I would assume that he consults with our senior pastor regarding the music...and we do not have a "band".

4) The minister is an ordained office held by a man, but the term worship leader(s) allow anyone of any standard, gender, sexual orientation, ability, godliness,... to lead the congregation.

Again...don't know what you're going on about here. I'm quite sure Pastor S. is a man.

5) There is an elevated level of self gratification and exaltation implicit in the term, where the term, minister, has that of servant and service to others as the primary goal.

Do you have any idea of the WORK that goes into the worship music in every service? We do one "special" every week...and there are hours of practice involved in singing a 3-5 minute song. What you see/hear on Sunday morning is the culmination of hours of practice. We make it look easy. It isn't.

These five are enough to start a conversation, and I trust some will acknowledge they too are uncomfortable with the term worship leader, while others merely want to suggest it is a name change, only, with no real substantive change.[/QUOTE]

Overall, I have no real idea what you're going on about here. A "worship leader" or other musician/vocalist is one who has spent time and yes, money, honing a talent that is God-given. We who sing and/or play instruments during the services look upon it as a gift from God that we use for His edification and His glory, and a gift we give to our brothers and sisters in the congregation. Those who get paid to do it (as I have in the past) are paid for the time spent at the church, rehearsing, practicing, LEADING others, etc. When I was a "worship leader", I was NOT free to do whatever I wanted...I was given a fair amount of latitude, however there were standards that had to be met. For special services, a list of songs had to be submitted in advance to the pastor for him to either bless or not bless. It's hard WORK to be part of the worship group...and it's nothing that anyone takes terribly lightly.

 

[Reynolds]

The first worship leader we had was a woman. Of course she could not be music "minister" in a SBC church. Just a way of circumventing the system. I did not and still don't approve.

 

[Aaron]

Get rid of the 'worship leader' and you get rid of CCM. (Is it still called that?) And THAT's the reason for Deek's flippancy.

 

[HankD]

You can lead the sheep to the green pastures and still waters but they must do the eating and drinking.

HankD

 

[Deacon]

Get rid of the 'worship leader' and you get rid of CCM. (Is it still called that?) And THAT's the reason for Deek's flippancy.

You hit the nail right on the head there Aaron.

If you want to make the service relevant to the current generation you need to encourage them to interact and participate.

Do you want an ‘old’ congregation? Keep to the old, ‘traditional’ ways. You will have a great budget for a while and as the old church attenders die, the church does too.

Do you want an intergenerational congregation? Focus specific ministries on those you want to attract, don’t make them fit in with ‘that’s the way we’ve always done it’.

• Actionizing this means including music that they relate to, the genre that they listen to.
• Putting younger faces up front; integrating the services with young and old serving. (I’ve heard this said and seen it by experience - the age of the congregation tends to be around the same age as the speakers up front.)
• It means addressing the needs of the younger families – to include exceptional guardianship over child care.
• It can include digitalization of hymnals, overhead projectors, church announcements by email or video.
• And many, many others ways.

Personalize your ministries and grow the church by letting the church serve the way it was designed to.

Singing the ‘good ole songs’ of yesteryear and keeping the faces up in front wrinkled and moldy panders to us old people with money in our pockets but it will disinterest, bore, and alienate the young people that should be filling the church tomorrow.

Rob

 

[agedman]

In my church, our "worship leader" is also one of the assistant pastors and principal of the school. He's more of the choir leader/conductor.

As it should be. A Scripturally qualified pastor, ordained by God and appointed by the assembly, is what is required by both the OT and NT.

Do you have any idea of the WORK that goes into the worship music in every service? We do one "special" every week...and there are hours of practice involved in singing a 3-5 minute song. What you see/hear on Sunday morning is the culmination of hours of practice. We make it look easy. It isn't.

Actually, I do. Been there, done that. Which is why I started this thread.
Of course, I am from a long ago generation who knew humble musicians, song writers, dedicated ministers of music ... that would include: (Started to give an extensive list of the well-known, but never mind, they are all long dead, anyway. Besides, one might get the impression that I was puffing up my own authority, and that would detract from the importance of the Scriptures and Scripture principles.)

Overall, I have no real idea what you're going on about here. A "worship leader" or other musician/vocalist is one who has spent time and yes, money, honing a talent that is God-given.

So, time and money spent honing a God-given talent, automatically qualifies one as a "worship leader?" What about such things as a God honoring, Christ centered, Spirit filled life in which the assembly is a witness and can approve?

We who sing and/or play instruments during the services look upon it as a gift from God that we use for His edification and His glory, and a gift we give to our brothers and sisters in the congregation. Those who get paid to do it (as I have in the past) are paid for the time spent at the church, rehearsing, practicing, LEADING others, etc.

You do realize that the Scriptures teach that every good and perfect gift is given by God, and that the use of the gift is our reasonable service. It is not to be squandered, but used by God for His purpose - irregardless of being paid or not.

I am not saying that a fellowship shouldn't give to musicians. However, there is nothing to puff-up about being a talent serving the Lord.

When I was a "worship leader", I was NOT free to do whatever I wanted...I was given a fair amount of latitude, however there were standards that had to be met. For special services, a list of songs had to be submitted in advance to the pastor for him to either bless or not bless. It's hard WORK to be part of the worship group...and it's nothing that anyone takes terribly lightly.

I wouldn't want to suggest that personal accomplishments validate or invalidate what a local assembly allows.

It is enough to share what the Scriptures expect, and if the local assembly violates the principles of the Scriptures it is either uneducated or uncaring.

On a personal note: The op seems to have caused you some manner of discomfort. Please understand that I am grateful for any talent that is dedicated to the service of Christ.

Dr. Bob Jones Sr. said that the most important light of a house isn't the great chandelier hanging for all to see and admire, but that little night light that shines in the darkness that no one notices, but continually gives off light to keep others from stumbling in the dark. Good night lights don't have an on/off switch and are unimpressed with those that do.

The matter of this thread is the affront to Scripture qualifications that the modern assembly embrace when selecting folks who would lead the congregation, be it teaching, preaching, evangelizing... who do not meet the basic Scripture qualifications.


Unlike the plan spoken word well recognized as delivered by a preacher, the music does all three (teach, preach, evangelize) more often at the same time. Therefore, it would seem the assembly should be extremely careful to follow the Scriptures in the selection.

 

[saved41199]

Singing the ‘good ole songs’ of yesteryear and keeping the faces up in front wrinkled and moldy panders to us old people with money in our pockets but it will disinterest, bore, and alienate the young people that should be filling the church tomorrow.

Guess you haven't seen our youth! Our "old fashioned" congregation is about 70% young families with children.

 

[Reynolds]

You hit the nail right on the head there Aaron.

If you want to make the service relevant to the current generation you need to encourage them to interact and participate.

Do you want an ‘old’ congregation? Keep to the old, ‘traditional’ ways. You will have a great budget for a while and as the old church attenders die, the church does too.

Do you want an intergenerational congregation? Focus specific ministries on those you want to attract, don’t make them fit in with ‘that’s the way we’ve always done it’.

• Actionizing this means including music that they relate to, the genre that they listen to.
• Putting younger faces up front; integrating the services with young and old serving. (I’ve heard this said and seen it by experience - the age of the congregation tends to be around the same age as the speakers up front.)
• It means addressing the needs of the younger families – to include exceptional guardianship over child care.
• It can include digitalization of hymnals, overhead projectors, church announcements by email or video.
• And many, many others ways.

Personalize your ministries and grow the church by letting the church serve the way it was designed to.

Singing the ‘good ole songs’ of yesteryear and keeping the faces up in front wrinkled and moldy panders to us old people with money in our pockets but it will disinterest, bore, and alienate the young people that should be filling the church tomorrow.

Rob

I agree. In this area, if you do not have a good band that is playing Newsboys, Crowder, Mercy Me, etc, you can flat forget having a significant amount of youth or for that fact, anybody under 40. I must admit, I love the modern music. I really love it played loud and proud, not toned down.

 

[agedman]

I agree. In this area, if you do not have a good band that is playing Newsboys, Crowder, Mercy Me, etc, you can flat forget having a significant amount of youth or for that fact, anybody under 40. I must admit, I love the modern music. I really love it played loud and proud, not toned down.

There is nothing proud about loud.

Shouting is not worship anymore than applause.

If one would not shout in the meting with earthly kings, but give them respect and honor lest they not grant our request or tolerate our presence, what greater intolerance would the King of Kings exhibit at such injustice of clamor and froth.

 

[InTheLight]

There is nothing proud about loud.

Shouting is not worship anymore than applause.

If one would not shout in the meting with earthly kings, but give them respect and honor lest they not grant our request or tolerate our presence, what greater intolerance would the King of Kings exhibit at such injustice of clamor and froth.

Sing to him a new song; play skillfully, and shout for joy.
Psalm 33:3

Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they were saying: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!”
Revelation 5:11‭-‬12

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
Revelation 6:9‭-‬10

After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
Revelation 7:9‭-‬10







Sent from my Motorola Droid Turbo.

 

[Deacon]

Paul catalogues the virtues necessary for an elder/pastor but doesn’t define their duties.

I don’t have a problem if a worship leader is an elder or pastor but there's nothing but opinion in this thread as to why it is necessary to do so.

If the elders/pastors select a “worship leader” to lead the worship of the congregation, they do it under their vested authority.

... if you do not have a good band that is playing Newsboys, Crowder, Mercy Me, etc,

I'm not a music guy myself so I don't know exactly what they play. Once in a while I'll hear one I know on the radio. New songs are learned a couple times a year.

We've got 2 keyboards, one or two guitars, bass guitar, drums, and a 3 or 4 singers, (ranging from college age to the 80's). They are an energetic group.
Sound levels are checked by the sound team in the center back before the service during their warm-up.

I'm usually setting up chairs with the chair set-up team during warm-up and get to sing along and listen to them twice.

Rob

 

[agedman]

Sing to him a new song; play skillfully, and shout for joy.
Psalm 33:3

Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they were saying: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!”
Revelation 5:11‭-‬12

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
Revelation 6:9‭-‬10

After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
Revelation 7:9‭-‬10







Sent from my Motorola Droid Turbo.

Oh, I just new someone would yank out Scriptures as these and attempt to place them into this age, when they are specific to both the millennium and heaven.

Laughably, I actually heard a preacher wax on and on how applause is appropriate using Isaiah 55.

 

[Revmitchell]

The term "worship leader" has been a troubling term for me.

Perhaps it is not for you, but here is a short list of the problems with the term as I see it for Baptist churches.


1). It is not a Biblical office that should be leading the congregation. Only ministers (pastors, bishops, evangelists, teachers ...)

Some one who is leading in honest worship to glorify God, ordained office or not is not a problem.

2) From the time of Sinai, worship leaders have opposed the righteousness of God in favor of idols. Even to the point of murder and riot, the worship leaders have been anti Christ. They killed the messengers of God, throughout the ages to this modern day. Baptists call their ministers - pastor, or preacher. There is significant history and rational to using those terms for the leaders of the congregation.

Not seeing this as relevant.

3). The term itself suggests that a select few are to led and the focus, that worship must conform to their script and standard. In contrast, a minister of music suggests the facilitation of other's worship journey, just as a minister of the Gospel facilitates the journey in the knowledge of the Scriptures.

I do not see the term suggesting that nor does anyone I have ever met said any such thing.

4) The minister is an ordained office held by a man, but the term worship leader(s) allow anyone of any standard, gender, sexual orientation, ability, godliness,... to lead the congregation.

The term is not the door keeper the people are.

5) There is an elevated level of self gratification and exaltation implicit in the term, where the term, minister, has that of servant and service to others as the primary goal.

I do not see this either.

 

[InTheLight]

Oh, I just new someone would yank out Scriptures as these and attempt to place them into this age, when they are specific to both the millennium and heaven.

They are?
I did not know that praise styles had dispensations...

 

[rlvaughn]

In my opinion, the minister of music was actually a minister called by God and ordained.

The first time I heard of someone with the title minister of music being ordained, it was someone who had first held the title while serving as a music director with no mentioned of a calling in the ministerial sense. That changed with ordination to make him a minister with tax filing benefits rather than just a church employee.

 

[saved41199]

I agree. In this area, if you do not have a good band that is playing Newsboys, Crowder, Mercy Me, etc, you can flat forget having a significant amount of youth or for that fact, anybody under 40. I must admit, I love the modern music. I really love it played loud and proud, not toned down.

THAT was one of the reasons we left the non-denominational fellowship we were worshipping at...it was like being at a rock concert every Sunday morning. No thanks. I really don't think earth shattering volume is really necessary...especially not on a Sunday morning.