Worship leader

[blessedwife318]

The target is the hearts of man. Worship must begin in the heart. God is the object of worship. Worship music is supposed to place man in a worshipful state.
What a church is supposed to do is bring up the next generation to serve Christ. What often happens is older members with deep pockets want to be served by the church, instead of them being servants to the next generation." Me and my money are going elsewhere if you don't serve me." Heck with the next generation, make me happy.

The target is to bring glory to God. Reaching the next generation is about proclaiming the Gospel to them not entertaining them. I grew up in a "seeker senstive" rock band, light show, burst your ear drums week in and week out. Of my group of 12 friends in that youth group only 2 of us our still going to church in any capacity. That's what you get when you view the audience or target of worship as anyone else but God and His Glory.
Speaking of older generations it seems to me it is the baby boomers and gen xers that love their loud rock band wannabe concerts where as millenials have been rejecting it seeking something of more substance less consumer driven. How Does the Church Reach Millennials? Hint: It's Not Flashing Lights or Rock Band Worship | The Stream

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[HeDied4U]

The target is the hearts of man. Worship must begin in the heart. God is the object of worship. Worship music is supposed to place man in a worshipful state.
What a church is supposed to do is bring up the next generation to serve Christ. What often happens is older members with deep pockets want to be served by the church, instead of them being servants to the next generation." Me and my money are going elsewhere if you don't serve me." Heck with the next generation, make me happy.

While I agree with the highlighted statement, I find that the older I get, the less tolerance I have for the "rock concert" mentality many churches seem to have nowadays.

That was one of the reasons I left my previous church, one that I attended for many years. It got to the point where it was a 40-45 minute rock concert (complete with fog machine...ugh!!) every week, with the play, er, excuse me, I mean sermon, lasting maybe 30 minutes (at most). It got to the point where it was very hard to worship God when the music was so loud (walls reverberating) you couldn't hear yourself think, let alone try to worship God.

Granted, the church I now attend has a modern worship band, complete with worship leader (a term which, by the way, I don't have a problem with), but the music is much more subdued and one doesn't leave with a pounding headache after the service.

 

[blessedwife318]

While I agree with the highlighted statement, I find that the older I get, the less tolerance I have for the "rock concert" mentality many churches seem to have nowadays.

That was one of the reasons I left my previous church, one that I attended for many years. It got to the point where it was a 40-45 minute rock concert (complete with fog machine...ugh!!) every week, with the play, er, excuse me, I mean sermon, lasting maybe 30 minutes (at most). It got to the point where it was very hard to worship God when the music was so loud (walls reverberating) you couldn't hear yourself think, let alone try to worship God.

Granted, the church I now attend has a modern worship band, complete with worship leader (a term which, by the way, I don't have a problem with), but the music is much more subdued and one doesn't leave with a pounding headache after the service.

I would also add to this that it doesn't help when churches plan out all the emotional cues ahead of time. I have first hand knowledge from my brother working at a mega church as their light and sound guy how they plan out a service. The emotional response is planned, and they use all the tricks to bring it about. It's almost as if they want your mind shut off before the motivational speech of the week.

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[Reynolds]

I would also add to this that it doesn't help when churches plan out all the emotional cues ahead of time. I have first hand knowledge from my brother working at a mega church as their light and sound guy how they plan out a service. The emotional response is planned, and they use all the tricks to bring it about. It's almost as if they want your mind shut off before the motivational speech of the week.

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The same thing happens with some choirs and choir directors. Your point?

 

[blessedwife318]

The same thing happens with some choirs and choir directors. Your point?

That the Holy Spirit doesn't need lights and the latest sound system to do His work.

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[Reynolds]

That the Holy Spirit doesn't need lights and the latest sound system to do His work.

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Does He need a piano or organ? They were both newfangled at one time. I remember many years ago, one of the old deacons at our church told me the story of the uproar we had when the congregation voted to purchase "the devils box." Devils box, AKA as an organ.

 

[blessedwife318]

Does He need a piano or organ? They were both newfangled at one time. I remember many years ago, one of the old deacons at our church told me the story of the uproar we had when the congregation voted to purchase "the devils box." Devils box, AKA as an organ.

You will search in vain for any post where I attack any specific instrument or say we should only sing songs written prior to x date. I object to the use of emotional manipulation to bring about the desired emotional response. That includes the old school playing the piano softly during alter calls until someone comes forward. Seeker sensitive churches just take it to a whole new level with how they use lights and multimedia and audience plants to get the desired response.

I believe the Word of God is powerful enough to accomplish His purpose and that the Holy Spirit can being conviction and illuminated Scripture without the need to resort to motivational tricks of the trade.

Churches are not called to seek a target demographic (audience as you called them) but to equip the saints to work with all demographics without distinction.
I find even your use of audience to be revealing as Church 1. Has an audience of 1 God and 2. All member of the body (church) have a function and it is more than just sit passively by.

I've always said what you win them with is what you keep them with. If you win people with the latest and greatest system you will need to continue to have the latest and greatest system. But if you win them with the preaching of the Word you will keep them with the preaching of the Word.

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[Reynolds]

You will search in vain for any post where I attack any specific instrument or say we should only sing songs written prior to x date. I object to the use of emotional manipulation to bring about the desired emotional response. That includes the old school playing the piano softly during alter calls until someone comes forward. Seeker sensitive churches just take it to a whole new level with how they use lights and multimedia and audience plants to get the desired response.

I believe the Word of God is powerful enough to accomplish His purpose and that the Holy Spirit can being conviction and illuminated Scripture without the need to resort to motivational tricks of the trade.

Churches are not called to seek a target demographic (audience as you called them) but to equip the saints to work with all demographics without distinction.
I find even your use of audience to be revealing as Church 1. Has an audience of 1 God and 2. All member of the body (church) have a function and it is more than just sit passively by.

I've always said what you win them with is what you keep them with. If you win people with the latest and greatest system you will need to continue to have the latest and greatest system. But if you win them with the preaching of the Word you will keep them with the preaching of the Word.

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You sound just like the pastor of the fastest dying church in our county. He says the exact things you do. He has managed to take a church that was growing when he came and kill it in short order. The last preacher at that church wasfundamental in doctrine but very modern and liberal in style and delivery. In comes the current pastor. Doctrinally, he is the same as the previous pastor. Style and delivery wise he is straight out if the national archives. He is bound and determined to do it "the way I have always done it." In less than 4 years, he has taken a once thriving church from over 500 down to less than 60. According to him, he "is doing it the right way." He "is not compromising." He got rid of all that rock music too. He also got rid of the families with kids, the college and careers, the teens, the youth, and pretty much everyone who does not draw a Social Security check. A lot of the S.S. check crowd left because they got mad that he ran their grandkids off.

 

[blessedwife318]

You sound just like the pastor of the fastest dying church in our county. He says the exact things you do. He has managed to take a church that was growing when he came and kill it in short order. The last preacher at that church wasfundamental in doctrine but very modern and liberal in style and delivery. In comes the current pastor. Doctrinally, he is the same as the previous pastor. Style and delivery wise he is straight out if the national archives. He is bound and determined to do it "the way I have always done it." In less than 4 years, he has taken a once thriving church from over 500 down to less than 60. According to him, he "is doing it the right way." He "is not compromising." He got rid of all that rock music too. He also got rid of the families with kids, the college and careers, the teens, the youth, and pretty much everyone who does not draw a Social Security check. A lot of the S.S. check crowd left because they got mad that he ran their grandkids off.

You will search in vain for any post of mine that says we need to get rid of modern music. All you will see me saying over and over again is that pastors are to preach the word. And churches are to equip the saints to minister to everyone around them, not just a target demographic. That is what they are called to do. Please feel free to address my post but if you want to keep building strawmen to attack that's fine as well, won't change my response of saying that it is the Word of God that is powerful to bring about change and I'm not ashamed of that fact.

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[InTheLight]

Worship can include:

1. Singing
2. Praying
3. Giving
4. Serving
5. Listening to sermons

I don't see that one facet of worship is more important than another. In fact, while I enjoy #5 Listening to sermons,I've got a feeling God places it lower on the list.

 

[Reynolds]

You will search in vain for any post of mine that says we need to get rid of modern music. All you will see me saying over and over again is that pastors are to preach the word. And churches are to equip the saints to minister to everyone around them, not just a target demographic. That is what they are called to do. Please feel free to address my post but if you want to keep building strawmen to attack that's fine as well, won't change my response of saying that it is the Word of God that is powerful to bring about change and I'm not ashamed of that fact.

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The Word of God does indeed contain the power to bring about change. I place utmost emphasis on the Word. It has to be presented in a manner it will be received.

 

[agedman]

The Word of God does indeed contain the power to bring about change. I place utmost emphasis on the Word. It has to be presented in a manner it will be received.

The Word doesn't contain but IS the ONLY power given by God to bring about change.

Anything else is merely a temporary patch job at best.

 

[Reynolds]

The Word doesn't contain but IS the ONLY power given by God to bring about change.

Anything else is merely a temporary patch job at best.

You forgetting The Holy Spirit?

 

[blessedwife318]

The Word of God does indeed contain the power to bring about change. I place utmost emphasis on the Word. It has to be presented in a manner it will be received.

Key word is presented. My experience with mega churches is that the Word of God is very absent save for being used as a spring board into a self help motivational speech.

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[Reynolds]

Key word is presented. My experience with mega churches is that the Word of God is very absent save for being used as a spring board into a self help motivational speech.

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I know quite a few megas that are exactly as you describe. I would not belong to one.
Our church has a band that plays modern and loud. The pastor, music minister, and youth pastor are all very young. The pastor preaches in a very modern style, but he is very doctrinally deep. He teaches The Word. Same can be said for the youth pastor. Modern in style. Fundamental in doctrine.
I love to fish. I love to fish for striped Bass. Two people can be using the exact same lure. One catching fish, one catching nothing. Difference is how they present the lure to the fish. Striped bass love Hopkins trolling spoons. You can drag the spoon through the water in a boring, non interesting manner and catch a fish every once in a while. You can rig the spoon on a planar board, tie the knot a bit off set, make it jump and rattle, and wear yourself out reeling in fish. The Hopkins spoon is The Gospel. Its the same whether its presented boring or lively. Much more fish will bite it lively than will bite it boring.

 

[agedman]

You forgetting The Holy Spirit?

Nope, but the work of the Holy Spirit is found in and through the Scriptures.

Just as Christ could do nothing outside of the Father's direct instruction, so the Holy Spirit must use the Word of God (Christ) in which to enlighten the unregenerate, and reveal the truth to the redeemed.

Romans 1

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”

 

[agedman]

I know quite a few megas that are exactly as you describe. I would not belong to one.
Our church has a band that plays modern and loud. The pastor, music minister, and youth pastor are all very young. The pastor preaches in a very modern style, but he is very doctrinally deep. He teaches The Word. Same can be said for the youth pastor. Modern in style. Fundamental in doctrine.
I love to fish. I love to fish for striped Bass. Two people can be using the exact same lure. One catching fish, one catching nothing. Difference is how they present the lure to the fish. Striped bass love Hopkins trolling spoons. You can drag the spoon through the water in a boring, non interesting manner and catch a fish every once in a while. You can rig the spoon on a planar board, tie the knot a bit off set, make it jump and rattle, and wear yourself out reeling in fish. The Hopkins spoon is The Gospel. Its the same whether its presented boring or lively. Much more fish will bite it lively than will bite it boring.

Apparently you are not familiar with the parable of the sore and seed.

Look at it carefully and ask yourself, "Who prepares the dirt and determines the purpose of the use?" Hint: it isn't humans.

 

[Reynolds]

Apparently you are not familiar with the parable of the sore and seed.

Look at it carefully and ask yourself, "Who prepares the dirt and determines the purpose of the use?" Hint: it isn't humans.

Well familiar with the arable of the sower. It has very little to do with the topic at hand unless you are going to to a hyperCalvinistic approach.

 

[Reynolds]

Nope, but the work of the Holy Spirit is found in and through the Scriptures.

Just as Christ could do nothing outside of the Father's direct instruction, so the Holy Spirit must use the Word of God (Christ) in which to enlighten the unregenerate, and reveal the truth to the redeemed.

Romans 1

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”

The Spirit is capable of much more than calling scripture to mind.

 

[agedman]

Well familiar with the arable of the sower. It has very little to do with the topic at hand unless you are going to to a hyperCalvinistic approach.

If you are so well familiar with the parable, then you would have to acknowledge that the OWNER of the dirt determines the dirt purposes and uses.

The owner determines what will be road use and what is too shallow. The owner determines the manner and methods used to make the dirt ready for the seed or the walkway.

The seed IS the Word, not some other approach or method, and the delivery system is the sower.

The response and harvest is determined by the soil preparation.

This story has a great value to true worship.

It is the dirt's obligation to respond to the seed - The Word.

This is foundational to true worship.