Would you as a parent....

[Mommyperson]

ok I need to ask a question then...
TO:
Pastor Greg and Craigthesea
wouldn't that be standing in judgement?

when we judge whether or not someone is worthy or not we are sinning are we not?

Aren't we to love unconditionally?
Not love the sin, but like the prodical son love and welcome the child in the celebratory way the Father of the lost son did?

How can turning your backs benefit and help open the way to effective witnessing?

I'm asking because this is a good topic and one I'd like to read your thoughts on.

We are told to forgive and love..I can't help but wonder if not going or supporting is sitting in judgement.

I'm NOT trying to start an argument..I'm just trying to understand it.

What are your thoughts?

 

[menageriekeeper]

No, sorry, they were NOT clear enough in giving a scriptual basis for their decision. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in just what I was asking.

Nor am I seeing how the love of Christ is being shown here. Surely there are other ways of showing your beliefs other than allowing yourself to be entirely cut out of your child/rens lives.

As has been pointed out in several threads I have read here lately, Christ ate and socialized with all kinds of sinners. He even attended a wedding, no word on whether or not those being married were good practicing Jewish people.

Where is there Biblical justification for your stand?

 

[Craigbythesea]

ok I need to ask a question then...
TO:
Pastor Greg and Craigthesea
wouldn't that be standing in judgement?

No. Notice these words in the original question, “if you knew they were marrying a non-Christian.” If I know that that the person they are marrying is a non-Christian, who am I judging?

when we judge whether or not someone is worthy or not we are sinning are we not?

Believing what the Bible says about an abominable sin is not judging anyone’s worthiness. And to in any way condone or participate in their sin would be a sin in and of itself. We are not speaking here of a six-year-old child who placed a thumbtack on their teacher’s chair—we are speaking here of a Christian who has deliberately chosen to slap God in the face and commit a heinous act that will be repeated every day until either one of them dies or the partner in the sin gets saved.

Aren't we to love unconditionally?

Love does not result in sin—love retrains us from sinning.

Not love the sin, but like the prodical son love and welcome the child in the celebratory way the Father of the lost son did?

The father did not go to the prodigal son’s wedding. He stayed home and prayed for his son. And the son repented, and came home to his father. Upon seeing his son’s repentance, the father forgave him.

How can turning your backs benefit and help open the way to effective witnessing?

Who is turning their back on whom? Obviously it is the son or daughter who is turning their back on Christ, their church, their family, their friends, and Christian principles.

I'm asking because this is a good topic and one I'd like to read your thoughts on.

Okay.

We are told to forgive and love..I can't help but wonder if not going or supporting is sitting in judgement.

We are told to forgive those who sin AFTER they have repented. And how does one repent of a forbidden marriage without leaving the marriage, and how does one leave the marriage without getting a divorce and committing another sin?

My experience as both a pastor and a teacher is that good parenting almost always prevents this sin. And when kids who have been properly parented grow up in a good church with a good pastor, such a sin very rarely occurs.

 

[Craigbythesea]

2 Cor. 6:16. Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
17. "Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE," says the Lord. "AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN; And I will welcome you.
18. "And I will be a father to you, And you shall be sons and daughters to Me," Says the Lord Almighty.

The last part of verse 14 would certainly apply to EVERYONE involved,

what fellowship has light with darkness?

Jesus hated sin, and He showed no compassion for those who choose to live in sin when they know better. Nor did He show any compassion for those who cling to those who choose to sin, family members or not.

Matt 8:21. Another of the disciples said to Him, "Lord, permit me first to go and bury my father."
22. But Jesus *said to him, "Follow Me, and allow the dead to bury their own dead."

(NASB, 1995)

 

[donnA]

Respect is not dependant on the one recieving, but on the one giving. Do you want to be the kind of person who respects people, even those who may or may not deserve it, or one who picks and chooses who gets to be shown what God's grace is like.

 

[PastorGreg]

God's grace is shown to those who repent. God does not wink at sin and fellowship us the same when weare in sin as when we are "right with Him." For us to do so only presents a false view of God and re-inforces the errant one in his ways.

 

[El_Guero]

Respect is not dependant on the one recieving, but on the one giving.

And since the respect that we are looking to receive depends upon God ...

The question was what would we do if a child of ours came to us and said, "Come to this sacrilegious [word chosen for emphasis] wedding, or you are no longer part of my life."

Then the CHILD has made the decision ... to sin against God, and has made an ultimatum to a parent to join with him/her in the sin.

I am still single, but I must submit that my answer would be in agreement with other men of the cloth ...

No ...

 

[El_Guero]

I also realize that this may be a relational issue ... it sounds as if some would have us value the possible relation with our children highly.

But, I still have to submit to my relationship with God and His Son, my Brother.

 

[donnA]

No where in scripture are we told someone must repent to us in order for us to forgive what they have done to us. We are told to keep on forgiving. Is that only forgive people who have asked for it? We aren't talking about what does God do if our child marries someone not christian, but what us as parents would do/have done. Big difference. We aren't the judge of any christian.

 

[donnA]

Someone please tell me, what sin it is for you, to go to a wedding of someone you say you love?

 

[PastorGreg]

Originally posted by donnA:
No where in scripture are we told someone must repent to us in order for us to forgive what they have done to us. We are told to keep on forgiving. Is that only forgive people who have asked for it? We aren't talking about what does God do if our child marries someone not christian, but what us as parents would do/have done. Big difference. We aren't the judge of any christian.

Luke 17:3,4, "IF thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him, and IF HE REPENT forgive him. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn to thee saying, I REPENT, thou shalt forgive him." Forgiveness is always to be extended, but it can never be granted until repentance is exercised.

The old "we aren't the judge" is getting old and worn out. Do you just throw out I Cor. 5? How about Romans 16:17 and II Thess. 3:14,15?

Besides, there is nothing to judge. If my child marries an unbeliever, he is sinning. Would I pay for his (illegal) drugs or give him a ride to rob a store? Why not? Who am I to judge? I should love him unconditionally, right?

Why should I support his sin just because there is organ music and everybody is dressed up?

 

[dianetavegia]

Would you not be encouraging his sin if you refused to attend the wedding and the couple just lived together instead? If they had been sleeping together, is it not better that they marry, especially if there's a child on the way?

Attending the wedding of an unsaved couple is not a sin. Also, we don't know the 'heart condition' of anyone but ourselves.

 

[Plain ol' Ralph]

Originally posted by delly:
I see no reason Diane should apologize for not paying for her daughter's wedding. Some people can't afford thousands of dollars for such elaborate trappings. If I understand Diane's financial situation right, I can see why it would put a hardship on her and her husband, who, I understand, is ill.

Besides, a 25 year old who is several months pregnant is not an adolescent. She is quite old enough to take responsibility for her choices.
Too many young women think their parents must finance their "special" day even if it bankrupts the parents. This is childish and selfish especially when she knew her lifestyle went against every thing her parents believe.

I think the daughter should be apologizing to her parents.

Both, but a 25 yearold pregnant and not married is a 25 yr old adolescent.

 

[Plain ol' Ralph]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Plain ol' Ralph:
My hope is that you have apologized to her for not so doing

Absolutely NOT! It was a full mass Catholic wedding and she was 5 months pregnant at the time. (25 years old) The reception included open bar and 3 bands. The inlaws would not hear of a small church wedding with cake and punch, let alone a small BAPTIST church wedding. They paid. </font>[/QUOTE]Oh, so now you introduce facts before not seen?

I would have offered too pay, but not under those circumstances either, but I do believe I wouldn't be so readily upset over her not understanding the difference, but then one just might ask you if you thought you raised her right? Afterall, she should have known better.

 

[El_Guero]

Ladies,

If I may, it sounds like those of us offended by the sin - we are also offended by the ultimatum.

If someone says, "I will accept Christ if you drink a beer with me". Would you?

If someone says, "I will accept Christ if you murder someone for me". Would you?

I know that my decision is based upon the adults giving an ultimatum to a parent: "Attend our wedding, or WE will have nothing to do with us".

Now, I do NOT have children. But, had my brother given me an ultimatum at his wedding, I would not have gone. Christian wedding or not.

In Him

 

[El_Guero]

It seems that we are breaking into 2 lines of forgiveness, and those lines are based upon: (1) not forgiving quickly could CAUSE sin, and (2) assisting in rebellion could CONTINUE sin.

I do tend to err the latter direction.

 

[dianetavegia]

Yes, Ralph, we thought we'd raised her right and certainly she had not learned her promiscuity from us, however, this was her second pregnancy. I've been very open on this board about our adopting the child she had at 19. And just as a side bar, I'm 54, married almost 35 years and have never been with anyone but my husband.

We lost many friends when we wouldn't insist on an abortion or hide her pregnancy, even among church members. My husband was a State Representative fighting for an abortion ban, blocking gay adoptions and you can imagine the press when our own daughter became pregnant! Do a search, even today, of Jim Tavegia and homosexual web sites will come up with his voting record.

We never allowed them to watch movies or t.v. shows that we thought promoted sex outside marriage but a parent can only do so much. We did not allow her to babysit for neighbors living in sin. We did not allow her to sleep over at homes where the parent might bring home a date. Our children were not allowed to read many books as assignments at public school. We read them first and if they offended us, we asked for an alternate. We taught our children about sex at home using a Christian book and refused to allow them to take sex ed at their high school. You tell ME what we did wrong?

Our sons were nothing like their sister and are all involved heavily in the Lord's work.

We were one of 2 couples on our street who were not divorced. We were in a very democratic, Catholic town. We were the 'Bible Thumpers'. We taught our children about sex and that sex was to be saved for marriage.

Our daughter was not upset that we were too poor to give her a $20,000 wedding but was upset that we were disappointed that she was pregnant again and by some guy we'd never even heard of. It was our disappointment that caused her to uninvite us. Her fiance said, at the time, Jesus would have done the same thing if he were in the same situation.

If you think you can raise a child and prevent them, as young adults, from sinning, then you're a mighty powerful or mighty confused man. I might list many of our wonderful men of God whose children strayed but since you're more influential than all of them, I'll share a Bible verse instead:

Proverbs 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

I just looked at your profile to try and guess the age of your children and see you're only 32 yourself. You've got a LOT to learn, Ralph, especially living in Georgia where sex among teens is more common than bowling alleys.

[ February 26, 2005, 01:32 PM: Message edited by: dianetavegia ]

 

[Craigbythesea]

Diane,

Your story reminds me of Theodore Dreiser’s novel, “An American Tragedy.” I believe that if more Christians read this book before they got married, we would see more successful parenting among evangelical Christians.

I realize, however, that every case is different, and that perhaps you and your husband did the very best that anyone could have done. Nonetheless, I believe that you would enjoy reading the book, if you have not already done so.

 

[Craigbythesea]

I just looked at your profile to try and guess the age of your children and see you're only 32 yourself. You've got a LOT to learn, Ralph, especially living in Georgia where sex among teens is more common than bowling alleys.

I have always assumed that September 02, 1972, was day that Ralph was born again—after all, he does write like an old man . I guess we all make mistakes.

 

[PastorGreg]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
Also, we don't know the 'heart condition' of anyone but ourselves.

Sorry, but Jesus disagrees with you. He said, "By their fruits ye shall know them."