Would you as a parent....

[dianetavegia]

Not a tragedy, Craig. The Bible assures me...

Proverbs 22:6
Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

She's 29. Not old yet! Also, What a blessing our Nick is! I thank the Lord for him everyday. Then there's Eden and Kaylee....

God's not finished with this family yet so don't write them off!

 

[Craigbythesea]

God's not finished with this family yet so don't write them off!

I guess that you have not read Dreiser’s book.

Nonetheless, I have not written off your family. I have prayed for you and your family several times, and I shall continue to do so.

 

[dianetavegia]

To be very truthful Craig, I've made it a point to not read books by 'experts' but stick to the Bible. I've not heard of this gentleman.

I did a search and would not have read any of his works.

An American Tragedy tells the story of a bellboy, Clyde Griffiths, indecisive like Hamlet, who sets out to gain success and fame. After an automobile accident, Clyde is employed by a distant relative, owner of a collar factory. He seduces Roberta Alden, an employee at the factory, but falls in love with Sondra Finchley, a girl of the local aristocracy. Roberta, now pregnant, demands that Clyde marry her. He takes Roberta rowing on an isolated lake and in this dreamlike sequence 'accidentally' murders her. Clyde's trial, conviction, and execution occupy the remainder of the book. Dreiser points out that materialistic society is as much to blame as the murderer himself. Dreiser based his study on the actual case of Chester Gillette, who murdered Grace Brown - he hit her with a tennis racket and pushed her overboard at Big Moose Lake in the Adirondack in July 1906. An American Tragedy was banned in Boston in 1927.

 

[dianetavegia]

Originally posted by PastorGreg:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dianetavegia:
Also, we don't know the 'heart condition' of anyone but ourselves.

Sorry, but Jesus disagrees with you. He said, "By their fruits ye shall know them." </font>[/QUOTE]Ah... but there are many who live very 'good lives' and play church quite well. Jesus said about them....

Matt. 7: 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

 

[Craigbythesea]

To be very truthful Craig, I've made it a point to not read books by 'experts' but stick to the Bible.

My parents had the same philosophy, and look at the mess I turned out to be!

I've not heard of this gentleman.

Theodore Dreiser was not an “expert” at raising children; he was one of America’s most famous novelists and editors. His most famous novel, An American Tragedy, is a masterfully written portrayal of the lives of a fictional Christian fundamentalist American family, and one member of this family in particular.

 

[dianetavegia]

I realized after reading about him that you weren't recommending a book by a parenting authority but also, with me growing up in the 1950's, you can be sure that book was not in my school library and probably not in our Alabama town library!

 

[Craigbythesea]

Dreiser points out that materialistic society is as much to blame as the murderer himself.

The review that you read was very poorly written. A novelist does not “point out” things—he illustrates them, and Dreiser did not illustrate so much that “materialistic society is as much to blame as the murderer himself,” but that a Christian fundamentalist American family can drive a son to a point where he commits murder.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:

Proverbs 22:6
Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

The book of Proverbs is not a list of promises but principles. If they were promises then promiscuity would not exist among Christian homes and Jesus would not be God because that verse would make Him out to be a liar because of Judas.

 

[El_Guero]

GB,

That is a stretch ...

First, Jesus is not a liar ever. My Your interpretation of Scripture does not change that. And your interpretation of Scripture does not change that.

Second, we do not know that Judas was raised correctly. And Judas was probably not old.

 

[PastorGreg]

Originally posted by gb93433:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dianetavegia:

Proverbs 22:6
Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

The book of Proverbs is not a list of promises but principles. If they were promises then promiscuity would not exist among Christian homes and Jesus would not be God because that verse would make Him out to be a liar because of Judas. </font>[/QUOTE]It's intersting that Prov. 22:6 was historically always beleived as a promise until the 20th century whne so many pastors with wrong priorities ended up losing their kids. The arrogance is amazing - "This verse isn't true because my kids didn't turn out right." The verse is still true.

 

[PastorGreg]

Boy, the spelling in that post was horrendous! Sorry! That's what comes of getting in too much of a hurry. Too late to edit by time I noticed.

 

[El_Guero]

Craig,

I did not understand this quote:

a Christian fundamentalist American family can drive a son to a point where he commits murder.

Could you clarify?

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by El_Guero:
Craig,

I did not understand this quote:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> a Christian fundamentalist American family can drive a son to a point where he commits murder.

Could you clarify? </font>[/QUOTE]Drieser's book clarifies it much better than I could. Read the book.

 

[menageriekeeper]

I want ya'll to know that I haven't abandoned this thread.

I have some more questions for Craig and Pastor Greg. As yet though I haven't been able to put my thoughts into words. To many pint sized distractions in this house. I hope things will change in a couple of days.

Until then thanks to everyone for a thought provoking discussion.

 

[williemakeit]

Originally posted by menageriekeeper:
Attend the wedding of your son or daughter if you knew they were marrying a non-Christian.

Would your answer be different if they were marrying into Judaism, Islam, Buddaism or some other large cultural/religious group? (as opposed to someone who was merely unsaved)

A non-Christian
- a practicing homosexual
- a whoremonger
- a prostitute
- a drug addict
- a drunk
- child molestor
- Muslim
- Buddist
- unsaved clean-cut Johnny/Janie from next door

Is there any sin that some of you would draw the line at, and not attend your son's/daughter's wedding? Do you differentiate between the different sins, or believe that a believer should be unequally yoked with anyone on their way to hell? Back to the OP--I would not attend the wedding.

 

[Mommyperson]

2 Corinthians 6 explains this thread to me a LOT better after of course someone went so far as to share a few truths in P.M... although it's still a bitter pill to swallow, I realize that this discussion is one that can easily cause emotions to run high.
Mine did when I first MIS understood the message and BOY was I set straight by biblical verse.

Emotions are ever changing... unreliable.
It's not a sitting in judgement of SOMEONE but a making a right judgement about SOMETHING.

Thanks for setting me straight Lord..

Does eating one's words EVER get easier or tastier?

 

[menageriekeeper]

Okay, I'm going to try to put my thoughts into words. It's not going to be easy and I want everyone to know that I am asking questions not making accusations in spite of how my post may sound.

2 Cor. 6:16. Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
17. "Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE," says the Lord. "AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN; And I will welcome you.
18. "And I will be a father to you, And you shall be sons and daughters to Me," Says the Lord Almighty.

The last part of verse 14 would certainly apply to EVERYONE involved,

what fellowship has light with darkness?

This is specifically for Craig, because it is his post I'm responding to. However if anyone else has any thoughts I'd be glad to hear them.

How do you apply this scripture to the problem, seeing as how this scripture specifically relates to problems the Corinthian church was having with people attempting to add/bring in idol worship to the worship of God.

Verses 17-18, how do these verses reconcile with Peter's experience in Acts 10. (this is kind of off subject and yet not somehow)

Jesus hated sin, and He showed no compassion for those who choose to live in sin when they know better. Nor did He show any compassion for those who cling to those who choose to sin, family members or not.

Matt 8:21. Another of the disciples said to Him, "Lord, permit me first to go and bury my father."
22. But Jesus *said to him, "Follow Me, and allow the dead to bury their own dead."

Now, I'm not going to argue that Jesus hated sin. Of course he did. However the scripture you gave reflects the commitment to Him that he expected his disciples(us by extension) to have. That we should be willing to serve him even if it means having to skip some family function in order to do His work. (this is how I see this scripture, not as a reflection of how Jesus hated sin)

This I understand. He also told us that we should be prepared to hate our entire family for that matter(Lk 14:26). He didn't however tell us to treat them with hate.

Also, how do you recognize your views with the picture painted in Matt 18:12 of the lost sheep? Should we not do all within our power to influence one lost back into the fold, even if it means attending the wedding of one unsaved?

We are told to forgive those who sin AFTER they have repented. And how does one repent of a forbidden marriage without leaving the marriage, and how does one leave the marriage without getting a divorce and committing another sin?

Well, since we aren't the ones being sinned against, what do we have to forgive. This forbidden marriage is a sin for God to deal with not us, correct?


Allright, this begins my thoughts. I have more, but I sense the need on my part to study the scriptures a little more before I finish. Since I can't do this right this minute, I'll be back later. Please comment on what I've posted so far.

Mommyperson, I'd love for whoever PM'd you to explain things the same way for me. This subject is one I am having great difficulty with and I have personal reasons for wanting my answers now.(as opposed to crossing the bridge when I come to it)

 

[Craigbythesea]

How do you apply this scripture to the problem, seeing as how this scripture specifically relates to problems the Corinthian church was having with people attempting to add/bring in idol worship to the worship of God.

First of all, 2 Corinthians was not addressed exclusive to the church in Corinth.

2 Cor. 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth with all the saints who are throughout Achaia:
2. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Secondly, Paul’s teachings are based upon the scriptural principle of separation, a principle found throughout both the Old Testament and the New Testament. Paul, in writing about himself when writing to the church at Rome, wrote,

Rom. 1:1. Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,

Light and darkness are contrasted in very many places in the Scriptures, including: Matt. 4:16, 6:23, 10:27; Luke 1:79, 11:34-5, 12:3; John 1:5, 3:19, 8:12, 12:35, 12:46; Acts 26:18; Rom. 2:19, 13:12; 1 Cor. 4:5; 2 Cor. 4:6, 2 Cor. 6:14; Eph. 5:8; 1 Thess. 5:5; 1 Pet. 2:9. 1 John 1:5, 2:8-9.

Thirdly, marriage is the sacred bonding together of two in such a manner that they become one:

Matt. 19:4. And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,
5. and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'?
6. "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."

1 Cor. 6:15. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be!
16. Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, "THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH."
17. But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
18. Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body.
19. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
20. For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.

2 Cor. 6:14. Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?
15. Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?
16. Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
17. "Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE," says the Lord. "AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN; And I will welcome you.
18. "And I will be a father to you, And you shall be sons and daughters to Me," Says the Lord Almighty.
1. Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Eph. 5:22. Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
23. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.
24. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.
25. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,
26. so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
27. that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.
28. So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself;
29. for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church,
30. because we are members of His body.
31. FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.
32. This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church.
33. Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband.

What fellowship has light with darkness or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?

 

[Craigbythesea]

Verses 17-18, how do these verses reconcile with Peter's experience in Acts 10. (this is kind of off subject and yet not somehow)

17. Now while Peter was greatly perplexed in mind as to what the vision which he had seen might be, behold, the men who had been sent by Cornelius, having asked directions for Simon's house, appeared at the gate;
18. and calling out, they were asking whether Simon, who was also called Peter, was staying there. (NASB, 1995 [as also in my post above])

Personally, I find it somewhat difficult to interpret this passage to mean that God was telling Peter to divorce his wife and marry the men who had been sent by Cornelius.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Also, how do you recognize your views with the picture painted in Matt 18:12 of the lost sheep? Should we not do all within our power to influence one lost back into the fold, even if it means attending the wedding of one unsaved?

Matt. 18:12. "What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying?
13. "If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety- nine which have not gone astray.
14. "So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.

The Father in this passage is not you or I; it is our Father in heaven. The point of the parable is that regardless of the number of people who enter into His kingdom, He still has very much love for each and everyone who has not yet entered His kingdom or who has gone astray. Certainly Christian fathers should emulate the love of their Father in heaven, but they must also emulate the holiness of God. And of course we are to be about our Father’s business, and if our son or daughter should reject God’s will for their life and commit an absolutely abominable sin by willfully becoming one flesh with sin and darkness, we need to give priority to our real family members.

Matt 8:21. Another of the disciples said to Him, "Lord, permit me first to go and bury my father."
22. But Jesus *said to him, "Follow Me, and allow the dead to bury their own dead." (NASB, 1995)