Would you stay? 2

[steaver]

Abraham responded, "They have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them."

What does it mean, They have Moses and the prophets?

This is a very good point. Since Moses and the Prophets were long past away, Jesus obviously meant they had the writings of Moses and the Prophets. For those who had to rely upon the Pharisees (The Church) it was devastating. Jesus said to those Church Leaders...
Mat 23:13 "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in."

Just as the Pharisees placed themselves on par with the Scriptures and lost their way with their handling of the Scriptures, so did this group of power hungry men called the RCC. So God raised up Luther from among them, to call them to repentance, but they would have nothing to do with correction and repentance, but rather sought to hunt down and kill any who would dare oppose their power and authority.

But God prevails! And today His Church thrives in spite of any oppression by the RCC. In fact, this organization is most likely the organization in which the Antichrist will take over. Ask yourself, how will the Antichrist be able to convince millions he is the Christ? Answer, because the Pope says so. Millions of people follow the Pope and will do anything he says. When he declares the Antichrist is the Christ, all Catholics will worship him. Think about it, how could the Antichrist possibly get millions to follow him in PEACE? He will need the blessing of a Pope.

 

[JonShaff]

I guarantee this: Using a plain reading of the Scriptures, you will NOT conclude that a substitute Priesthood of mediators is necessary, and not only unnecessary but anti-Scriptural. You will not find a hierarchy of leaders--particularly you will not find a top-down structure with man at the top--it's Christ at the Top and leaders at the bottom, serving and teaching others to serve.

Therefore, we conclude:
Pope is unbiblical
Priests mediating is unbiblical
bishops/Cardinals over diocese and perishes are unbiblical
Clergy/laity separation is unbiblical

No wonder you say the church has the authority--you disregard Scriptural authority altogether.

 

[Aaron]

You folks claim Scripture teaches that it is the Final and Only Authority.

That's not the argument, actually. The argument is that God has all authority, and that the Scriptures are given by God, and are, therefore, authoritative.

So, since God has spoken in the Scriptures, and it is impossible for Him to lie, and He cannot deny Himself, it follows that any prophecy, revelation or word of knowledge, or whatever you kooks are calling it these days, that contradicts the Scriptures is false. And any revelation that doesn't, isn't needed.

 

[Adonia]

I guarantee this: Using a plain reading of the Scriptures, you will NOT conclude that a substitute Priesthood of mediators is necessary, and not only unnecessary but anti-Scriptural. You will not find a hierarchy of leaders--particularly you will not find a top-down structure with man at the top--it's Christ at the Top and leaders at the bottom, serving and teaching others to serve.

Therefore, we conclude:
Pope is unbiblical
Priests mediating is unbiblical
bishops/Cardinals over diocese and perishes are unbiblical
Clergy/laity separation is unbiblical

No wonder you say the church has the authority--you disregard Scriptural authority altogether.

Not a hierarchy of leaders? The letters of St. Paul to the outlying churches was the hierarchy of the new Christian Church in action. St' Paul was telling those folks where they were messing up and they had better get with the program if they were to remain true to the faith. None of these outlying churches were autonomous, they were not just given a book and told to figure things out for themselves. No! No! No! A church, an institutional church was created, was meant to be created.

Now concerning mediators, please don't ever act like one by praying for others yourself. Anyone who needs God's help can pray to Him on their own, they don't need you in between themselves and God.

As for your other claims, nothing you cited is unbiblical because the leaders of the One Universal Church had the authority to act on this earth from Jesus Christ (God Incarnate) Himself. The scripturally mentioned ordained priesthood ( the laying on of hands) consists of those who part of the ministerial priesthood, those who lead the faithful in all religious matters, men called Bishops who have real power and authority. The Church evolved in an orthodox manner, i.e. a real existing church on earth with widely accepted doctrines, not what happened some 1600 years down the line as a "go it alone" faith.

 

[Davyboy]

2 Timothy 3:16-17

2 Timothy 3:16.

I was still waiting on Jon for a response or rebuttal, but it never happened. That is typical for him he just list verses then spits out anti-Catholic remarks.

Well let me repost what is on a previous page.
Nice, you quoted 2 Timothy 3:16 which says, “all scripture is god breath and is useful”. I loved how didn’t include verse 14. That would be considered a proof text. You tried to miss the fact that the two verses that you didn’t include stress the importance of oral teaching and the teaching authority of the Church. This verse you proved does NOT support the doctrine of sola scriptura at all. In fact it the opposite is true. Compare 1 Cor 11:2, 2 Thess 2:15, 3:6

2 Tim. 3:14 –Here, Paul appeals to apostolic tradition right before you quoted verse 2 Tim. 3:16. Thus, there is an appeal to tradition before there is an appeal to the Scriptures, and you and other Protestants generally ignore this fact.

2 Tim. 3:15 – Paul then appeals to the sacred writings of Scripture referring to the Old Testament Scriptures with which Timothy was raised (not the New Testament which was not even compiled at the time of Paul’s teaching). This verse also proves that one can come to faith in Jesus Christ without the NT.

2 Tim. 3:16 – this verse says that Scripture is “profitable” for every good work, but not exclusive (not a command). The word “profitable” is “ophelimos” in Greek. “Ophelimos” only means useful, which underscores that Scripture is not mandatory or exclusive.

2 Tim. 3:16 – further, the verse “all Scripture” uses the words “pasa graphe” which actually means every (not all) Scripture. This means every passage of Scripture is useful. Thus, the erroneous Protestant reading of “pasa graphe” would mean every single passage of Scripture is exclusive. This would mean Christians could not only use “sola Matthew,” or “sola Mark,” but could rely on one single verse from a Gospel as the exclusive authority of God’s word. This, of course, is not true and even you would agree. Also, “pasa graphe” cannot mean “all of Scripture” because there was no New Testament canon to which Paul could have been referring, unless you argue that the New Testament is not being included by Paul.

2 Tim. 3:16-17 – Finally, if these verses really mean that Paul was teaching sola Scriptura to the early Church, then why in 1 Thess. 2:13 does Paul teach that he is giving Revelation from God orally? Either Paul is contradicting his own teaching on sola Scriptura, or Paul was not teaching sola Scriptura in 2 Tim. 3:16-17.

 

[steaver]

Not a hierarchy of leaders? The letters of St. Paul to the outlying churches was the hierarchy of the new Christian Church in action. St' Paul was telling those folks where they were messing up and they had better get with the program if they were to remain true to the faith.

So what you are saying is what Paul and the other Apostles had to say, which they wrote down for these churches in letters, which they commanded to be read to the congregations of these churches, was the Final Authority.

 

[JonShaff]

2 Tim. 3:14 –Here, Paul appeals to apostolic tradition right before you quoted verse 2 Tim. 3:16. Thus, there is an appeal to tradition before there is an appeal to the Scriptures, and you and other Protestants generally ignore this fact.

14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it,

What was learned? An expounded understanding of the Old Testament Scriptures in light of the New Covenant.

How do we know that?

VS 15...

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

You utterly ignore the context--in plain sight for all to see!

The Scriptures, the Scriptures are our authority--man subjects himself to them--because as @Aaron has clearly stated...

That's not the argument, actually. The argument is that God has all authority, and that the Scriptures are given by God, and are, therefore, authoritative.

So, since God has spoken in the Scriptures, and it is impossible for Him to lie, and He cannot deny Himself, it follows that any prophecy, revelation or word of knowledge, or whatever you kooks are calling it these days, that contradicts the Scriptures is false. And any revelation that doesn't, isn't needed.

God gave us the Scriptures so that we can knowingly, by the testimony of the Spirit within us, subject ourselves to the Lordship of Jesus Christ--His Word.

 

[Yeshua1]

Nothing from those verses say anything about using the Bible Alone as the “Ultimate Authority or proving from the Bible alone any doctrines. Plus those verses say Epistle meaning only that book. Not the Bible alone because when this book was written where was no Canon of the Bible until 400 AD. So you are saying “Sola Thessalonins” or “Sola Colossians”.

can you give to us any verse where jesus quoted other from the scriptures when answering Pharisees and others?

 

[Yeshua1]

I guarantee this: Using a plain reading of the Scriptures, you will NOT conclude that a substitute Priesthood of mediators is necessary, and not only unnecessary but anti-Scriptural. You will not find a hierarchy of leaders--particularly you will not find a top-down structure with man at the top--it's Christ at the Top and leaders at the bottom, serving and teaching others to serve.

Therefore, we conclude:
Pope is unbiblical
Priests mediating is unbiblical
bishops/Cardinals over diocese and perishes are unbiblical
Clergy/laity separation is unbiblical

No wonder you say the church has the authority--you disregard Scriptural authority altogether.

You will not find the papacy, nor any church as being the one true church now!

 

[utilyan]

Is there a bible verse that spells out PLAINLY and CLEARLY that The Church is the Final and Only authority?I

Yeah it says the church bind and loose. It quotes Jesus in a dispute between two parties YOU TAKE IT TO THE CHURCH. It says the church can retain and forgive sins.

But that is beside the point.

Let me scribble in the bible. THE CHURCH HAS NO AUTHORITY WHATSOEVER.

Now lets get back to the question you are afraid to answer:

Is there a bible verse that spells out PLAINLY and CLEARLY that Scripture is the Final and Only authority?

Yes or No.


Why is this question so controversial? All you gotta do is say "YES".

 

[Yeshua1]

Memo to Yeshua 1: Jesus was/is God. He was using His own words and His own authority when confronting others. Good grief!

No, he used the word of God, the scriptures!

 

[Yeshua1]

I was still waiting on Jon for a response or rebuttal, but it never happened. That is typical for him he just list verses then spits out anti-Catholic remarks.

Well let me repost what is on a previous page.
Nice, you quoted 2 Timothy 3:16 which says, “all scripture is god breath and is useful”. I loved how didn’t include verse 14. That would be considered a proof text. You tried to miss the fact that the two verses that you didn’t include stress the importance of oral teaching and the teaching authority of the Church. This verse you proved does NOT support the doctrine of sola scriptura at all. In fact it the opposite is true. Compare 1 Cor 11:2, 2 Thess 2:15, 3:6

2 Tim. 3:14 –Here, Paul appeals to apostolic tradition right before you quoted verse 2 Tim. 3:16. Thus, there is an appeal to tradition before there is an appeal to the Scriptures, and you and other Protestants generally ignore this fact.

2 Tim. 3:15 – Paul then appeals to the sacred writings of Scripture referring to the Old Testament Scriptures with which Timothy was raised (not the New Testament which was not even compiled at the time of Paul’s teaching). This verse also proves that one can come to faith in Jesus Christ without the NT.

2 Tim. 3:16 – this verse says that Scripture is “profitable” for every good work, but not exclusive (not a command). The word “profitable” is “ophelimos” in Greek. “Ophelimos” only means useful, which underscores that Scripture is not mandatory or exclusive.

2 Tim. 3:16 – further, the verse “all Scripture” uses the words “pasa graphe” which actually means every (not all) Scripture. This means every passage of Scripture is useful. Thus, the erroneous Protestant reading of “pasa graphe” would mean every single passage of Scripture is exclusive. This would mean Christians could not only use “sola Matthew,” or “sola Mark,” but could rely on one single verse from a Gospel as the exclusive authority of God’s word. This, of course, is not true and even you would agree. Also, “pasa graphe” cannot mean “all of Scripture” because there was no New Testament canon to which Paul could have been referring, unless you argue that the New Testament is not being included by Paul.

2 Tim. 3:16-17 – Finally, if these verses really mean that Paul was teaching sola Scriptura to the early Church, then why in 1 Thess. 2:13 does Paul teach that he is giving Revelation from God orally? Either Paul is contradicting his own teaching on sola Scriptura, or Paul was not teaching sola Scriptura in 2 Tim. 3:16-17.

What the scriptures refers to as being trasdition, would be inspired OT texts, not as RCC sees it as being!

 

[steaver]

Yeah it says the church bind and loose. It quotes Jesus in a dispute between two parties YOU TAKE IT TO THE CHURCH. It says the church can retain and forgive sins.

Ooops! Don't see those words anywheres. "The Church is the Final and Only authority". Must not be so!

 

[Yeshua1]

Ooops! Don't see those words anywheres. "The Church is the Final and Only authority". Must not be so!

The church in context there was not the Roman one, as Jesus meant the one to come in Acts, not that of the RCC!

 

[JonShaff]

Yeah it says the church bind and loose. It quotes Jesus in a dispute between two parties YOU TAKE IT TO THE CHURCH. It says the church can retain and forgive sins.

The very fact that you reference Scripture here to dictate how you operate tells you where the Authority is

P.s. The church does not retain sins in and of herself--it's based on the Authority of God's Word and the Forgiveness we have in Jesus Christ! We can SHOW someone they are forgiven based on faith in Jesus Christ ACCORDING TO THE WORD:

Romans 1:16
Romans 6:23
Romans 10:9-10
Ephesians 2:8-9
John 3:16-17
John 3:36

 

[Davyboy]

14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it,

What was learned? An expounded understanding of the Old Testament Scriptures in light of the New Covenant.

How do we know that?

VS 15...

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

You utterly ignore the context--in plain sight for all to see!

The Scriptures, the Scriptures are our authority--man subjects himself to them--because as @Aaron has clearly stated...



God gave us the Scriptures so that we can knowingly, by the testimony of the Spirit within us, subject ourselves to the Lordship of Jesus Christ--His Word.

2 Timothy doesn’t say anything about using the “Bible Alone” as the “Ultimate Authority” and it doesn’t say anything about the Bible commanding that any doctrine be proven from the Bible Alone.

You utterly keep ignoring that Paul tells Timothy to continue in what he has learned for two reasons: 1st because he knows from who has learned it, from Paul himself and 2nd because has been educated in the scriptures. The first is the oral teaching which the apostle Paul have given Timothy.

 

[Davyboy]

Oral teaching was accepted by Christians, just as they accepted the written teaching that came to them later. It is a mistake to limit "Christ’s word" to the written word only or to suggest that all his teachings were reduced to writing. The Bible nowhere supports either notion.

ACCORDING TO THE WORD

Mt 23:2-3- chair of Moses: observe whatever they tell you. "Bible NOT Alone"

1 Cor 11:2- Hold Fast to traditions I handed on to you "Bible NOT Alone"

2 Thess 2:15- Hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter "Bible NOT Alone"

2 Thess 3:6- shun those acting not according to tradition "Bible NOT Alone"

Jn 21:25- not everything Jesus said recorded in Scripture. "Bible NOT Alone"

Acts 20:35- Paul records a saying of Jesus not found in gospels "Bible NOT Alone"

2 Tim 1:13- follow my sound words: guard the truth "Bible NOT Alone"

2 Tim 2:2-what you heard entrust to faithful men "Bible NOT Alone"

2 Tim 3:14-15- continue what you learned (from Paul) and the scriptures "Bible NOT Alone"

1 Pet 1:25- God’s eternal word=word preached to you "Bible NOT Alone"

Rom 10:17-faith comes from what is heard "Bible NOT Alone"

1 Cor 15:1-2-being saved if you hold fast to the word I preached "Bible NOT Alone"

Mk 16:15-go to the whole world, proclaim gospel to every creature "Bible NOT Alone"

All these verse support Bible Not Alone and yet all the attempts from this thread there are NONE that support anything about using the “Bible Alone” as the “Ultimate Authority” and nothing that supports the Bible commanding that any doctrine be proven from the Bible Alone.

 

[JonShaff]

2 Timothy doesn’t say anything about using the “Bible Alone” as the “Ultimate Authority” and it doesn’t say anything about the Bible commanding that any doctrine be proven from the Bible Alone.

You utterly keep ignoring that Paul tells Timothy to continue in what he has learned for two reasons: 1st because he knows from who has learned it, from Paul himself and 2nd because has been educated in the scriptures. The first is the oral teaching which the apostle Paul have given Timothy.

Paul Got his teaching from Christ Himself and delivered it during the transition period until the Teachings were written down. Are you saying you get revelation from God for new teachings? Everything Paul was teaching Timothy concerning Christ could be found in the OT as it found its fulfillment in Jesus Christ.

Why do you have a problem saying Scripture is our Sole authority? here is my guess--because you want to usurp God's Authority. It's obvious because of your system's actions--exalting saints, corporate hierarchy, confession, transubstantiation (John 6 is about Christ being our very source for spiritual life and vitality, NOT the eucharist), praying to Mary, Mary as co-redemtrix, etc etc....You HAVE to diminish the authority of God's Word in order to come up with this stuff.

 

[JonShaff]

Mt 23:2-3- chair of Moses: observe whatever they tell you. "Bible NOT Alone"

WOW, man!

This is Christ condemning the Hypocritical pharisees and the traditions they teach!

23 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Open your eyes, man! You are quoting Scripture that condemns what you are promoting!

2 Thess 2:15- Hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter "Bible NOT Alone"

Most likely it was the content found in the 1st Letter to the Thessalonians.

 

[steaver]

1st because he knows from who has learned it, from Paul himself and 2nd because has been educated in the scriptures. The first is the oral teaching which the apostle Paul have given Timothy.

You keep missing the fact that Paul was an Apostle of Jesus Christ. Apostles were chosen by Jesus Christ and given the authority to deliver the word of God. It has been delivered, there are no more Apostles other than the ones confirmed in the NT letters. What is left for us is the word of God which the Apostles had penned for God and God has preserved for His church as His final Authority on all matters of doctrine and Christian living. All instructions from God for His church has been given, there is nothing lacking, nothing more that needed to be added. In fact we can see throughout history, even to this day, how men claiming authority over God's word has brought in all manner of heresies into the church, even denying belief in the Son of God is necessary for salvation, which has been witnessed by Catholics on this very board.