Spoken like a true literalist.
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Would you stay? 4
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Spoken like a true literalist.
Hint, It is a question!
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Martin, thank you for getting what I was saying. I don't criticize crackers. Actually, Catholics use both regular leavened bread and wafers. The Eastern Rites tend to use regular leavened bread while the Western or the Latin Rite uses the unleavened wafer. The reason I believe this is that it has symbolic reasons. Leaven in scriptures is often related to sin.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Does it really matter to you what I believe about this? What do you believe? I believe I am correctly obeying Jesus command.
Yes, this is a debate board. What people believe is what we debate. By doing this we test doctrines and beliefs, and learn what others believe. The reason it very much matters is because you said faith and doing what Jesus says to do is how one is saved. You claim The RCC is correct on all matters of biblical doctrine. If you believe this, and you have the truth of this matter, then you need to tell others if they might be doing something incorrectly and as a result may not be saved.
So please tell me, do you believe I am obeying this command correctly? If not, what must I do that I may obey it correctly and be saved?
I know
No, the truth!
No, it was heretics who rejected this Christian orthodoxy. Tell me Batman, if the sacraments were a heresy, why didn't our Eastern Orthodox brothers ditch the theology of the sacraments when the great schism of Christianity occurred in the 11th century?
Because they teach heresy, too!
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
You are clearly after something else. I have explained to you clearly. I have answered your questions. I have expressed my beliefs. Now it is up to you to consider them and accept or reject them.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
I re-read your post, and I still think you are after something else. However, I wanted to say something specifically to Salvation. I think your view of it and mine are different. For me Salvation encapsulates our entire life culminating in heaven. Every decision and every action. Jesus said to his disciples that their righteousness must be greater than that of the Pharisees. Which to me means its not about lists but faith and living it out. Jesus restores our friendship with God and we live out that friendship. If we abandon that friendship the relationship breaks down. What I don't believe is that salvation is a once and done thing. We get our "faith" ticket stamped and getting to heaven is final which may or may not affect the rest of our life. Nor do I believe by following a bunch of lists while I have no faith or relationship with God. The things we do as Catholics maintain us our side of that relationship, God does his part by giving us the Holy Spirit and grace to guide us as we follow him. But if we don't have that relationship founded in faith to begin with those things don't really help but can condemn us. Like the passage in 1 Corinthians 11 says :" So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord"
atpollard
Well-Known Member
While your comments were not directed at me, I generally liked and agreed with most of what you said.
With respect to this ...
While I agree that Sacraments are of no value to those without faith, wasn't this verse ...
With respect to this ...
... I would see the relationship differently. We do not have a "friendship" with God restored through Christ, we have our relationship upgraded from "dead in sin" (Ephesians 2:1) "already judged" (John 3:18) "enemies of God" (Romans 5:10) to children of God (Romans 8:15). While this does not make it impossible for us to go astray, as the Prodigal Son went astray (Luke 15), I am confident that "he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion" (Philippians 1:6) and like the Prodigal Son, all of God's adopted children will eventually "come to their senses" (Luke 15:17) and return home to find the God waiting with open arms.
While I agree that Sacraments are of no value to those without faith, wasn't this verse ...
... really more about people turning the Table into a drunken party rather than a somber remembrance?
You are not being honest. My questions are very pointed and very answerable to point. You don't want to answer and I believe it is because you know your answer confuses your own beliefs. Which is a good thing actually for it should cause you to question what you have been told to believe is truth and search for the answers which are of gold, silver and precious stones.
To the board which is watching this thread, when the most important question one can ask, "what must i do to be saved?", we can see how the Catholic answers fall all over the map, even though they claim to speak as one voice.
Is there a Catholic here which can answer my simple question I have concerning partaking in the Lord's Supper? I laid it out clearly and will re-post it now....
"We participate in the Lords supper as Jesus commanded."
Not sure if you don;t understand the question or if you are avoiding it, but I will attempt to make my question more clear if possible.
Define...... "participating in the Lord's supper". How is this performed today?
Maybe it will help if i tell you how I participate in the Lord's supper. About once a month in our service we take some broken crackers and some grape juice, we have someone read scripture reminding us of the Sacrifice Jesus made with His broken body and His shed blood for our sins, then we have someone lead us in prayer to bless the sacraments and then we partake together. On the front of our communion table is engraved the words "Do this in Remembrance of Me".
Now I asked you what your definition is, since you are a Catholic and believe this must be done in order to be saved. Is the way I and my church do it correct? Or is there another way? This is very important is it not, since you referenced it must be done in order to be saved (among other things). Another question would be how many times does it have to be done in order to be saved?
Do you believe I am obeying this command correctly? (This is VERY important from a Catholic pov, if Thinkingstuff's answer to "what must I do to be saved?" which was "have faith in Jesus Christ and do what He says to do" is correct, folks who have the scriptures better be doing what Jesus said to do! )
Broken crackers and grape juice? You are getting it wrong from the get go on that statement alone.
Ok, thank you! How must it be done so I may be saved?
So the Grace of Calavary was not enough to cover and atone for all of our sins?
isn't that the best way to understand the scriptures though?
Never said that. The sacraments are a channel of the Grace of Calvary. Ask any Presbyterian, Anglican, Methodist, Catholic, Lutheran, Disciple of Christ, or Orthodox Christian.
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atpollard
Well-Known Member
Point of clarification: "A channel" or "THE channel" of the Grace of Calvary?
None of the reformed or Baptists though would see them as being conduits of saving grace as Rome does!
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