Would you stay? 4

[utilyan]

I actually believe your position best represents the Catholic pov....No need to believe on Jesus Christ, just love God your own way and do some good deeds. Other Catholics here are dancing around this, but I bet they agree with you. Let's ask them! All Catholics here, do you agree with Utilyan that a person can reject Jesus is the Son of God and still be saved by their love for God and others?

Sure you can be saved, You are the first example that comes to mind.

I believe you reject Jesus when you state Love God and Love Neighbor is not necessary for Salvation.

But I also believe the ignorance is at fault rather then your intention, You are good person, Loyal to God, I think you are mistaken, just don't know better.

We see in parable of talents and of the wicked servant, God gives a particular measure of faith to everyone, to whom more is given much more is expected.

Acts 17

27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’

Here Paul expresses to PAGANS that they are children of God, He is quoting PAGAN SCRIPTURE.

He tells us in verse before:

"having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,"

God has absolute control of the conditions.

If you were born a Eskimo tribe in the middle of nowhere's, You want to convince me that I ought to fault you as a rejector of Jesus.

The guy who is closer to truth is in a hotter seat. Between me and you I got to believe I got it coming more than anyone here.

Maybe you can explain this verse for us, because the way I see it Jesus is very reasonable:

John 15

22“If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.


You can barely call me a christian some folks here would insist I am not, I love Jesus.

If I went to preached the word to someone does it qualify at all? Folks here would swear I got it all wrong. Yet you want to qualify folks as rejecting Jesus when they have no grip of your understanding, You can't even get your understanding across to ME even.

A Buddhist went to watch "Grinch from Christmas" He thought the Grinch must be Jesus Christ, because they were taught wise folks looked like monkeys.

So if he rejects the Monkey as Lord and Savior, you going to fault him for that?

Even My view of what you think God is, absolute unforgiving monster, and maybe what I think of God to you is horrible and wrong.

Just because you might reject what I presented as God, doesn't mean you reject God. Ultimately I think we come face to face with Jesus and those matters are settled there.

 

[JonShaff]

Ultimately I think we come face to face with Jesus and those matters are settled there.

By then it will be too late. You are on baptist board for a reason, and i believe it is providential. You have to be born again, are you?

 

[steaver]

I believe you reject Jesus when you state Love God and Love Neighbor is not necessary for Salvation.

When you state "Love God" you have just required yourself to define who is the God you are claiming to love? Does He have a name? Where is His name found that you may know and address Him by name so you may love Him as you say it is necessary for one's salvation? Please answer. Is God Buddha? Allah? Loki? Jesus Christ? Zeus? Odin? All of the above?

 

[steaver]

Acts 17

27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’

Here Paul expresses to PAGANS that they are children of God, He is quoting PAGAN SCRIPTURE.

I believe I corrected you on your misunderstanding of this scripture before and believe you just ignored your mistake rather than adjusting your pov to the word of God. But I will do it again for the benefit of those watching so they avoid citing this portion of scripture as a case that all people of the earth are children of God.

The NASB which you quoted from is the only translation which says "children" rather than the more correct term "offspring". Of course anyone who has considered the full counsel of God's word would never come to the conclusion that all people of the earth are the children of God.

We read offspring of the flesh are not the children of God. Only those having the Spirit of Jesus Christ are the children of God....
Rom 9:8 "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

We further read that we are the children of God by faith in Jesus Christ.
Gal 3:26
"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."

We further read that there are commandments which are kept by the children of God.
1Jo 3:23
"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment."
1Jo 3:24
"And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us."

As for the false belief and teaching that a person can reject Jesus is the Christ and still be saved we read...
1Jo 2:22
"Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."

So as we can see, if one is willing to study the full counsel of God's word, they will understand that only those confessing Jesus is the Christ are the children of God. Those who deny Jesus is the Christ are antichrist and last I read antichrist are not saved and are not the children of God.

This totally destroys the argument from Utilyan that a "good Muslim" or a "good Jew" who "Loves God" will be saved. Remember........
"Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."

 

[steaver]

If you were born a Eskimo tribe in the middle of nowhere's, You want to convince me that I ought to fault you as a rejector of Jesus.

Yes, if you brought to me the gospel of Jesus Christ and I said no thanks, I love God and I love you, but no I reject this Jesus you speak of is the Christ, that He died for sinners, that He rose again to life, that He is the Mediator between God and man, no thanks, I will continue to love God on my own terms. Thanks anyways. And you would walk away saying to yourself, well he rejects Jesus Christ, but he still loves God and loves his neighbor, so he is saved!!!

 

[steaver]

Maybe you can explain this verse for us, because the way I see it Jesus is very reasonable:

John 15
22“If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.

I have been all this time. Jesus spoke to them, said He was the Son of God, proved He was the Son of God through miracles and the fulfillment of scriptures, and now they have no excuse for their sin of unbelief, which means they will not be saved. But you keep saying, no, they will still be saved as long as they love God (whatever that means to them) and love their Neighbors (whatever that means to them). According to you no one needs to love God or love their neighbor according to God.

 

[steaver]

A Buddhist went to watch "Grinch from Christmas" He thought the Grinch must be Jesus Christ, because they were taught wise folks looked like monkeys.

So if he rejects the Monkey as Lord and Savior, you going to fault him for that?

Really? Who told him the Grinch represented Jesus Christ? Hopefully someone equipped with the gospel of Jesus Christ would have explained it to him. It's not that difficult, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, His death and resurrection, and ye shall be saved.

 

[steaver]

Even My view of what you think God is,

Not sure where you get YOUR view of my view from. My view is God has forgiven all sins at the cross and only requires one believe it. You think that makes God a monster for requiring faith in the One who went to the cross for the world and made the sacrifice? Really?

Just because you might reject what I presented as God, doesn't mean you reject God.

"Presented as God"? Is God not a Person? What is His name that I may love Him as He commands me to love God that I may be saved?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I asked you the Catholic answer to the question "what must I do to be saved?" Your Catholic answer has led us to a list you gave...which you said was a partial list.



All of these must be understood through Catholic interpretation, correct? Could you explain each one as it applies to the question any lost soul might ask of you, "what I must do to be saved? " Let's just pick one, Jn 6:53, for the lost soul who wants to be saved, explain to him how he is to do what Jesus said to do here in order to be saved.

Act 8:30
And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
Act 8:31
And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

I didn't give you a list. I said these are some of the things Jesus said with regard to salvation. He said other things as well. I would practically have to quote an entire gospel to quote everything Jesus said with regard to salvation. Fortunately, I don't have to as we have 4 Gospels with which we could read. Even at that Jesus said and did many things not mentioned in the Gospels.

 

[JonShaff]

I didn't give you a list. I said these are some of the things Jesus said with regard to salvation. He said other things as well. I would practically have to quote an entire gospel to quote everything Jesus said with regard to salvation. Fortunately, I don't have to as we have 4 Gospels with which we could read. Even at that Jesus said and did many things not mentioned in the Gospels.

John 20
31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Allow me to give you as complete an answer as possible, and if you need more clarity with any answer I give, please continue to ask questions until you feel satisfied the question has been fully answered.

Here is the question under review: If a lost soul would ask you, "what must I do to be saved?", what would your answer be?

My answer would be: Believe the testimony God gave of His Son Jesus Christ, that Jesus Christ died for your sins, laying down His life on a Roman cross, shedding His blood for the sins of the whole world, that God raised Him again to life on the third day. Believe this with your heart and confess this is truth with thy mouth and ye shall be saved.

Now you, representing the lost soul which asked the question, may ask followup questions if you do not find the answer is sufficient for your salvation.

I gave you my answer. It is simple. Now if you want follow up questions answered then ask those. As you may have seen in this thread that I gave an answer regarding the Catholic View of Justification.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

John 20
31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

Exactly, Believe on the Lord Jesus and do what he says. Matt 17:5 " While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!” James 1:22 "Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says"

 

[steaver]

I gave you my answer. It is simple. Now if you want follow up questions answered then ask those.

Hmmm. I think I have asked you about half a dozen times my follow up question, maybe you missed it, so here it is from the OP....

Lol. I am exactly where you have led us. All of my questions have been on the topic of salvation. You presented a partial list of things you said that Jesus said one must do to be saved. One was eat His flesh and drink His blood. The Ethiopian needs the Catholic understanding. How can he eat Jesus flesh and drink His blood? Does He need to find Jesus, kill Him, and eat and drink? The floor is yours, these are your replies, explain them Phillip!

 

[steaver]

I didn't give you a list. I said these are some of the things Jesus said with regard to salvation. He said other things as well.

list1
list/
noun

1. 1.
   a number of connected items or names written or printed consecutively, typically one below the other.

It was a list brother.

 

[JonShaff]

Exactly, Believe on the Lord Jesus and do what he says. Matt 17:5 " While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!” James 1:22 "Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says"

We are not saved BY Good Works, we are saved FOR Good works--Ephesians 2:10, check it out.

 

[steaver]

We are not saved BY Good Works, we are saved FOR Good works--Ephesians 2:10, check it out.

Why does this simple truth, which Paul writes out so clearly for us, elude so many?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Hmmm. I think I have asked you about half a dozen times my follow up question, maybe you missed it, so here it is from the OP....

Jesus said it, I didn't. As far as the Ethiopian Eunuch it shows us a principle that the Old Testament should be viewed in the light of the person of Jesus Christ and Jesus Teaching as he passed it on to his apostles. It shows us that the oral teaching clarifies the written word. So with this in mind consider what Jesus said in John 6. If we are to view the Old Testament in the light of Jesus Christ let us consider the Passover which is a foreshadowing of Jesus and his sacrifice. In John 1:29 the Baptist said "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world" a direct reference to the Passover lamb which the Jews would not have missed. What were the Jews instructed to do at the Passover? Exodus 12:3 "They are to take a lamb for themselves, one for each household" Exodus 12:6 "you are to take care of them when all the members of the community are to slaughter them" Exodus 12:11 " This is how you are to eat it: with your cloak tucked into your belt, your sandals on your feet and your staff in your hand. Eat it in haste; it is the Lord’s Passover." We see that in Revelation that Jesus is envisioned as a lamb we can easily connect the dots as John the Baptist did. Jesus is the Lamb of God. Since Passover is a type and a foreshadowing we must as ourselves what did the Jews do with the sacrificed lamb? Had it live with them, killed it, and then ate it in order that the angel of death would Passover them. They did this in the manner of getting ready to travel to the promised land. As when we must do when we partake in Jesus teaching in John 6.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

list1
list/
noun

1. 1.
   a number of connected items or names written or printed consecutively, typically one below the other.

It was a list brother.

The problem between your understanding of salvation and mine is that you need lists. I believe that once God has given you faith to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ your life is lived in Christ. In other words everything you do engages salvation. That is why I'm having a problem with lists. Do what Jesus says what he taught. All of it is for salvation John 15:5-6 Jesus said "I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." Salvation isn't just getting to heaven it is also the Journey there. Part of that Journey includes sanctification. Part of that Journey is aligning your will to his. It is all of it. Though I don't agree with everything John Bunyan says in his Pilgrims Progress he does clearly show in allegory that the Christian's Path to Heaven and Salvation is a journey.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

We are not saved BY Good Works, we are saved FOR Good works--Ephesians 2:10, check it out.

You are right we are not saved by good works but neither are we saved by faith alone James 2:20-24 check it out, which btw is the only place in the bible where the words "faith alone" are mentioned in that way. "20 do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together,and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone."

 

[JonShaff]

You are right we are not saved by good works but neither are we saved by faith alone James 2:20-24 check it out, which btw is the only place in the bible where the words "faith alone" are mentioned in that way. "20 do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together,and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone."

So explain in your own words how this section of Scripture should be understood in light of justification and Christ's work on the cross, thanks!