Would you stay? 4

[steaver]

Jesus is the Lamb of God. Since Passover is a type and a foreshadowing we must as ourselves what did the Jews do with the sacrificed lamb? Had it live with them, killed it, and then ate it in order that the angel of death would Passover them. They did this in the manner of getting ready to travel to the promised land. As when we must do when we partake in Jesus teaching in John 6.

You said quite a bit to never answer my followup question. "How can he eat Jesus' flesh and drink His blood? Does He need to find Jesus, kill Him, and eat and drink?" Explain how this is to be done by the believer in Christ, so he may be saved. This is your belief system, you should be able to explain it.

The problem between your understanding of salvation and mine is that you need lists. I believe that once God has given you faith to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ your life is lived in Christ. In other words everything you do engages salvation. That is why I'm having a problem with lists. Do what Jesus says what he taught.

I need no list brother, I gave you my answer for salvation, you are the one who said it is "many things" in your Catholic answer to "what must i do to be saved?". I believe the problem you have is you do not understand the difference between salvation and the sanctifying work of the Spirit after one is saved (born-again) which is a one time event. You conflate the two and thus find yourself in the position of not being able to answer how a person is saved. In fact, you cannot even be sure of your own salvation, which is sad because that isn't the way God wants you to live. He wants you to know you are saved by grace, and this not of yourself, it is the gift of God. On the contrary, you believe salvation is of yourself, towing the line, making sure you do everything Jesus said to do or you might not make it. But you even know you do not do everything Jesus said to do, so what does that leave you with? It leaves you with the doctrine of Moroni, by Joseph Smith, which says "by grace ye are saved, after ye do all ye can do".

 

[steaver]

You are right we are not saved by good works but neither are we saved by faith alone

According to the RCC, does a person even need faith in Jesus Christ to be saved? What if they love God and love their neighbor but they reject the testimony of Jesus Christ? Are they saved?

 

[Walter]

According to the RCC, does a person even need faith in Jesus Christ to be saved? What if they love God and love their neighbor but they reject the testimony of Jesus Christ? Are they saved?

You know better. You are being ridiculous. It has been stated over and over that faith in Jesus is required for salvation

 

[steaver]

You know better. You are being ridiculous. It has been stated over and over that faith in Jesus is required for salvation

Talk to Utilyan, I got it from him.

 

[steaver]

You know better. You are being ridiculous. It has been stated over and over that faith in Jesus is required for salvation

Hey, glad you are here. Getting a variety of answers from Catholics here on this question, "what must i do to be saved?". I thought the Catholic answer would be uniform, but it appears Catholics are just as divided as many other Christian groups around the world. So far I have been told you must live homeless, eat Jesus' flesh and drink His blood, and Utilyan declares one can hear about Jesus Christ and reject Jesus Christ is the Son of God and still be saved by loving God and loving your neighbor. What say you?

 

[steaver]

You know better. You are being ridiculous. It has been stated over and over that faith in Jesus is required for salvation

So then you believe that the "good Muslim" and the "good Jew" and the "good Buddhist" etc, who loves God (whatever that means to them) and loves their neighbor (whatever that means to them) and hears the testimony of Jesus Christ, and rejects Jesus is Christ, and rejects Jesus is the Son of God, placing no faith in Jesus, is lost while in that present state of having no faith in Jesus Christ?

Now you say i am being ridiculous, however, this question was born out of a conversation with a Catholic, and other Catholics agreed with this Catholic when I challenged them. So does any Catholic here know the Catholic church's official position on "what must i do to be saved?"! It appears it's members are very confused. I said once that the Catholic could not give an answer bc it was to complicated for them to explain. One Catholic here said it wasn't complicated at all, just do what Jesus said to do. One of those things he cited for salvation was Jesus saying eat His flesh and drink His blood. So I said, ok, how do I do this? It is very important seeing Jesus said it is a must for eternal life. I have yet to get an answer, even though I have asked many times. It is so complicated for the Catholic that they can't even explain what they believe! It is becoming more and more evident that the Catholics faith or trust is in the RCC much more so than in Jesus Christ. Like as long as they feel they are part of the "True" Church Jesus Christ established here on earth than they don't need to know "what must i do to be saved?" As long as you are in the RCC you will be fine.

 

[Walter]

Talk to Utilyan, I got it from him.

He said faith in Christ is not necessary for salvation? I must have missed that post. Actually, you are being disingenuous. Every Catholic on this board has been consistent in saying that faith in Christ is essential to salvation. However, we also are consistently saying that you must also follow Him as Lord (do as He said) as well. As has been said before, to not love God and love your neighbor as yourself is to reject Christ, wouldn't you say?

 

[Walter]

So then you believe that the "good Muslim" and the "good Jew" and the "good Buddhist" etc, who loves God (whatever that means to them) and loves their neighbor (whatever that means to them) and hears the testimony of Jesus Christ, and rejects Jesus is Christ, and rejects Jesus is the Son of God, placing no faith in Jesus, is lost while in that present state of having no faith in Jesus Christ?

Now you say i am being ridiculous, however, this question was born out of a conversation with a Catholic, and other Catholics agreed with this Catholic when I challenged them. So does any Catholic here know the Catholic church's official position on "what must i do to be saved?"! It appears it's members are very confused. I said once that the Catholic could not give an answer bc it was to complicated for them to explain. One Catholic here said it wasn't complicated at all, just do what Jesus said to do. One of those things he cited for salvation was Jesus saying eat His flesh and drink His blood. So I said, ok, how do I do this? It is very important seeing Jesus said it is a must for eternal life. I have yet to get an answer, even though I have asked many times. It is so complicated for the Catholic that they can't even explain what they believe! It is becoming more and more evident that the Catholics faith or trust is in the RCC much more so than in Jesus Christ. Like as long as they feel they are part of the "True" Church Jesus Christ established here on earth than they don't need to know "what must i do to be saved?" As long as you are in the RCC you will be fine.

Thinkingstuff posted clearly what the 'official position' of the Catholic Church is on 'what must I do to be saved'. Do you even bother to read his posts? Go back and read it.

 

[utilyan]

When you state "Love God" you have just required yourself to define who is the God you are claiming to love? Does He have a name? Where is His name found that you may know and address Him by name so you may love Him as you say it is necessary for one's salvation? Please answer. Is God Buddha? Allah? Loki? Jesus Christ? Zeus? Odin? All of the above?

Jesus Christ is God.

We are held accountable quite justly. Not everyone has the same measure of faith.


Does the UNKNOWN GOD fly with you? Or is Paul mistaken?

23“For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’ Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. 24“The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands;

Anyone who recognizes the truth that Jesus is God and rejects Jesus that is going to be trouble.

Good Samaritan would be the Good Christian.

You would have been born in middle east, you'd be swearing up and down Allah this and Allah that. You would believe Jesus just a prophet. And then which denomination presents Jesus truly? If we Catholics teach you the Muslim about Jesus and you reject us, so what? YOU call us devil worshipers and Catholics a demonic religion so you wouldn't call that rejecting Jesus at all.


But the guy who is taught God is the Grinch Jesus.... I can't fault him for rejecting.

Calvinist God, You believe that is the character of God? And if a person doesn't accept that counts?

And what denomination are you again? Is it in the Muslim yellow pages?

If you asked me to list out everything you believe, I'm probably going to get it wrong. And yet you expect someone with zero contact with you to nail the correct faith with 100% accuracy.

I doubt YOU if given the power would send anyone to hell for clearly not having "elect" privileges and conditions, much less God.

I happen to believe God is way more merciful and understanding.

Topping the understanding of God's mercy should be astronomical feat, not a piece of cake.

God is not going to fault cave man bob for not knowing who Jesus Christ is, nor your infant babies who you would send to hell on the same basis of ignorance, knowledge, Gnostic understanding.

God loves dumb and ignorant people too. Tell me you believe babies, infants and toddlers go straight to hell because they don't understand thus reject Jesus.

I've heard Baptist and Protestants tell me Calvinist God is a monster straight from hell, and vice versa.

Each will point a finger at each other and say THEY REJECT JESUS! We hear and say that here all the time.

Example:

I believe you reject Jesus when you state Love God and Love Neighbor is not necessary for Salvation.

But I don't FAULT you for rejecting Jesus, I think your mistake is based on ignorance. I think God loves you, understands your point of view. I would step up and take responsibility for not setting a better example, I'm going to tell God its not his fault, its more my fault then his.

 

[steaver]

Anyone who recognizes the truth that Jesus is God and rejects Jesus that is going to be trouble.

This is the first time you have wavered on your stance that a person can reject Jesus is the Christ and still be saved by loving god and loving neighbor. But it is just a waver, I think you still believe it. But let me allow you to make it clear.....By trouble do you mean this person is not presently saved, even though they say they love God and love their neighbor?

 

[steaver]

Thinkingstuff posted clearly what the 'official position' of the Catholic Church is on 'what must I do to be saved'. Do you even bother to read his posts? Go back and read it.

I read his post, if you see where he explained how one is to eat Jesus' flesh and drink His blood, please point it out, I have not seen his answer anywhere, I may have missed it. This is one of the things he listed as needed for eternal life.

 

[atpollard]

I read his post, if you see where he explained how one is to eat Jesus' flesh and drink His blood, please point it out, I have not seen his answer anywhere, I may have missed it. This is one of the things he listed as needed for eternal life.

Having been to Mass, it is a reference to the sacrament of the Eucharist (cracker and grape juice to this 'BaptiCostal') which they believe becomes the literal "body and blood" of Jesus. It is one of 'however many' sacraments the Roman Catholic church recognizes.

 

[steaver]

As has been said before, to not love God and love your neighbor as yourself is to reject Christ, wouldn't you say?

Yes, as long as when you say God you are referencing the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Any other definition of the "God" one claims to love, void of Jesus Christ, is deceived and unsaved. Wouldn't you agree? I.E the "good Muslim" the "good Jew" the "good Buddhist" the "good Samaritan". It doesn't work the opposite, meaning loving any definition of God and loving your neighbor equates to being saved. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[steaver]

Having been to Mass, it is a reference to the sacrament of the Eucharist (cracker and grape juice to this 'BaptiCostal') which they believe becomes the literal "body and blood" of Jesus. It is one of 'however many' sacraments the Roman Catholic church recognizes.

Thinkingstuff referenced Jesus saying one must eat His flesh and drink His blood or one has NO LIFE in them. He pointed me to this saying from Jesus when I asked him what things did Jesus say to do in order to be saved. If this Mass thing is what Thinkingstuff is referring to then there naturally are followup questions. I have never been to Mass, thus, according to the RCC I would not be saved or have would have no life in me. Second question would be how many times do i have to do this Mass thing to be qualified? Once?

 

[atpollard]

Yes, as long as when you say God you are referencing the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Any other definition of the "God" one claims to love, void of Jesus Christ, is deceived and unsaved. Wouldn't you agree? I.E the "good Muslim" the "good Jew" the "good Buddhist" the "good Samaritan". It doesn't work the opposite, meaning loving any definition of God and loving your neighbor equates to being saved. Wouldn't you agree?

Does Romans 1and 2 offer some possibility that God may overlook ignorance?

• [Rom 1:18-20 NLT] 18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. 20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.
• [Rom 2:12-16 NLT] 12 When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God's written law. And the Jews, who do have God's law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it. 13 For merely listening to the law doesn't make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in his sight. 14 Even Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. 15 They demonstrate that God's law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right. 16 And this is the message I proclaim--that the day is coming when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge everyone's secret life.

While there is no salvation apart from Jesus, Abram never heard the name Jesus when he trusted God and it was credited to him as righteousness. I am just reluctant to say what God will not do if God has not first said it. Clearly one is not saved by faith in Islam or Buddha or the gods of Hinduism. I just wonder if a man might sense that there is something more, long for it, and find grace ... entering heaven as one through a fire with all his works burned up ... to finally meet the something he always knew was out there, and learn his name is Jesus.

[I am just a glass half-full kind of person.]

 

[utilyan]

This is the first time you have wavered on your stance that a person can reject Jesus is the Christ and still be saved by loving god and loving neighbor. But it is just a waver, I think you still believe it. But let me allow you to make it clear.....By trouble do you mean this person is not presently saved, even though they say they love God and love their neighbor?

Never waver.

Just as it sounds, it would be direct sin. They would not be loving God or Neighbor.

Good Samaritan wouldn't violate this sin if he was following his good conscience. GOOD being very objective rather then relative on what God has provided.

If the GOOD Samaritan understood Jesus was God there is no doubt in my mind he would instantly become the GOOD Christian.


Another example is a Jehovah's witness I've known and studied with them. They can be very dedicated to God, perpetually on the clock for God. They however don't believe Jesus is God.

They have a bible, they have a church and those things tell them Jesus is not God.

I completely disagree with them. I'm certain they don't have my understanding. I believe them to be sincere in their beliefs.

But suppose a Jehovah Witness understands and concludes Jesus is God, If he were to reject Jesus, he is in trouble hell bound as he stands

I believe God has a perfect patience. We see this with Paul. He didn't accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, Had zero faith. was a Blasphemer, To Paul Jesus is NOT GOD at all. How is it that God in his mercy intervenes on behalf of Paul? God could have picked anyone for the job he doesn't seek the qualified.


1 timothy 1

12I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service, 13even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; 14and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus. 15It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.16Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life. 17Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
.

Whats the difference between Paul then and now? He tells you "I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief"

There is nothing special about Paul, he merit nothing, he had zero faith. The obvious thing is he was ignorant to the truth. And that is the motivation for God's MERCY even.

He didn't say God showed me mercy because I merit it or I had FAITH and accepted Jesus as Lord and savior. But because he was a ignorant unbeliever.

 

[atpollard]

Another example is a Jehovah's witness I've known and studied with them. They can be very dedicated to God, perpetually on the clock for God. They however don't believe Jesus is God.

They have a bible, they have a church and those things tell them Jesus is not God.

I completely disagree with them. I'm certain they don't have my understanding. I believe them to be sincere in their beliefs.

But suppose a Jehovah Witness understands and concludes Jesus is God, If he were to reject Jesus, he is in trouble hell bound as he stands

Someone once told me that Jesus was crucified between two thieves for our benefit. One thief was there so that we would not “presume” and the other thief was there so that we would not “despair”.

The topic of who God saves and how God saves them encourages a lot of both presumption and despair as we read our opinions into what God has not said. I would like to believe that there is hope that someone who has never had the opportunity to hear of Jesus might still have a chance to find God’s mercy (and posted so above) but we must admit that nowhere has God actually said that there is any door to the Father except through the Son. In fact, there are verses that clearly state exactly the opposite. What does John 3:18 say about the Jehovah’s Witnesses and those who do not believe in Christ? “They are judged already!”

We can hope that God might show them mercy, but we must not presume to confuse our opinions with God’s opinion.

 

[steaver]

Whats the difference between Paul then and now? He tells you "I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief"

There is nothing special about Paul, he merit nothing, he had zero faith. The obvious thing is he was ignorant to the truth. And that is the motivation for God's MERCY even.

He didn't say God showed me mercy because I merit it or I had FAITH and accepted Jesus as Lord and savior. But because he was a ignorant unbeliever.

This sounds like the Calvinist argument. Which is Paul did not have to choose Jesus Christ, but rather Jesus Christ made Paul believe. Thus, God chooses some to have mercy upon, making them believe on Jesus Christ, and others He leaves in their ignorance to hell. It is interesting to see a Catholic point to Paul as how one becomes saved, by no action of their own towards believing, but rather being made to believe.

 

[steaver]

Abram never heard the name Jesus when he trusted God and it was credited to him as righteousness.

Didn't Paul trust the God of Abraham? Why did Paul need to trust in Jesus Christ for his righteousness and Abraham did not?

 

[steaver]

We can hope that God might show them mercy, but we must not presume to confuse our opinions with God’s opinion.

Heb 1:1 - God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 - Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

The entire exchange I have had with Utilyan over the months and on many different threads has always been defined by me about those who hear the gospel and reject the gospel. What happens to those who never hear or are incapable of understanding is up to the mercy of God, yes I would hope God being a just God would show them mercy, I cannot see why He would not. What Utilyan always argued for was that a person could hear the gospel of Jesus Christ and say "no thank you, I will love God and love my neighbor, but I will not have this Jesus to be Lord over me" and still be saved because of their "loving". The scripture makes it very clear, those who hear and reject will be condemned, doesn't matter how much they think they are loving God or others.