Would you stay? 4

[Thinkingstuff]

While your comments were not directed at me, I generally liked and agreed with most of what you said.
With respect to this ...

... I would see the relationship differently. We do not have a "friendship" with God restored through Christ, we have our relationship upgraded from "dead in sin" (Ephesians 2:1) "already judged" (John 3:18) "enemies of God" (Romans 5:10) to children of God (Romans 8:15). While this does not make it impossible for us to go astray, as the Prodigal Son went astray (Luke 15), I am confident that "he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion" (Philippians 1:6) and like the Prodigal Son, all of God's adopted children will eventually "come to their senses" (Luke 15:17) and return home to find the God waiting with open arms.

While I agree that Sacraments are of no value to those without faith, wasn't this verse ...

... really more about people turning the Table into a drunken party rather than a somber remembrance?

Thank you for the compliment. You are more correct about the relationship. However, I was attempting to keep it simple. Certainly, before the fall we had a close relationship to God but the fall made us enemies and dead as you have said. Paul was dealing with the abuse of the sacrament not only eating, and getting drunk, but showing favoritism, humiliating others, lack of unity, causing division, etc.. However, my point was that there is a principle at work, an issue when you are not properly disposed to the sacrament. where the Catholic Catechism states: "The assembly should prepare itself to encounter its Lord and to become “a people well disposed.” The preparation of hearts is the joint work of the Holy Spirit and the assembly,.. The grace of the Holy Spirit seeks to awaken faith, conversion of heart, and adherence to the Father’s will. These dispositions are the precondition both for the reception of other graces conferred in the celebration itself and the fruits of new life...
“By the saving word of God, faith... is nourished in the hearts of believers. By this faith then the congregation of the faithful begins and grows.”21 The proclamation does not stop with a teaching; it elicits the response of faith as consent and commitment, directed at the covenant between God and his people. Once again it is the Holy Spirit who gives the grace of faith, strengthens it and makes it grow in the community." 1 Corinthians 11:29-31 later states: "For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment." I just got home from work so if I seem a bit disjointed forgive me.

 

[utilyan]

"Would you stay"
Let me save you guys a lot of time. You got bigger fish to fry.
What makes it so very easy for me to remain Catholic is the insult and the poor character of God expressed by others.


If for a minute I believed in your version of God. Okay my hands are up, LORD, don't shoot! Thank you for torturing your son instead of me!

The idea that God poured out his wrath on Jesus. That God is so ticked off he has to torture something. Wow. YOU WOULD think God would do that. That is an incredible level of insult.

No thanks. Could anyone think of anything worst? Then I heard about your buddies the Calvinist. They are shocked and surprised God would save anyone at all. And judge everyone deserves hell. At that point I'm just convinced God has a sense of humor.

You got better luck convincing me to worship a terrorist.

I pity folks who accept flat out evil on account of having a faith that put a spiritual gun to their head.

You are going to have to Convince me the Character of your idea of God is more loving and merciful. As is, its nothing Christlike.

Sure enough there are some folks who think God would be doing them a favor if he tortured their mother more so Jesus so they can go to heaven.

A moment when God hates Jesus, turns his back on Jesus, and separates the trinity. Where the only way the prodigal son returns is with father's fury tortures a innocent person.

Jesus saves you FROM a GOD who needs blood. Jesus takes a bullet for you, and God the Father pulls the trigger.

Pagan idea of justice is punishment and torment of others. True justice is restorative. redemptive and merciful.


I don't call that mercy at all. Anyone torturing Jesus is not giving me mercy at all. Forgiveness means its forgiven not paid off. Forgiveness by definition cannot be a payment. Real forgiveness is you are released from your debt. If you are paid in full there is ZERO forgiveness.

Psalm 22

24For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from him;
But when he cried to Him for help, He heard.

2 Corinthians 5

19namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Doesn't say that Christ was reconciling God to the world. But reconciling the world to God.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You are not being honest. My questions are very pointed and very answerable to point. You don't want to answer and I believe it is because you know your answer confuses your own beliefs. Which is a good thing actually for it should cause you to question what you have been told to believe is truth and search for the answers which are of gold, silver and precious stones.

To the board which is watching this thread, when the most important question one can ask, "what must i do to be saved?", we can see how the Catholic answers fall all over the map, even though they claim to speak as one voice.

Is there a Catholic here which can answer my simple question I have concerning partaking in the Lord's Supper? I laid it out clearly and will re-post it now....

"We participate in the Lords supper as Jesus commanded."

Not sure if you don;t understand the question or if you are avoiding it, but I will attempt to make my question more clear if possible.

Define...... "participating in the Lord's supper". How is this performed today?

Maybe it will help if i tell you how I participate in the Lord's supper. About once a month in our service we take some broken crackers and some grape juice, we have someone read scripture reminding us of the Sacrifice Jesus made with His broken body and His shed blood for our sins, then we have someone lead us in prayer to bless the sacraments and then we partake together. On the front of our communion table is engraved the words "Do this in Remembrance of Me".

Now I asked you what your definition is, since you are a Catholic and believe this must be done in order to be saved. Is the way I and my church do it correct? Or is there another way? This is very important is it not, since you referenced it must be done in order to be saved (among other things). Another question would be how many times does it have to be done in order to be saved?

Do you believe I am obeying this command correctly? (This is VERY important from a Catholic pov, if Thinkingstuff's answer to "what must I do to be saved?" which was "have faith in Jesus Christ and do what He says to do" is correct, folks who have the scriptures better be doing what Jesus said to do! )

What are you trying to get at? I explained very clearly. In fact, I gave you everything you need to answer your proposed question. What do you think? Are you?

 

[Walter]

None of the reformed or Baptists though would see them as being conduits of saving grace as Rome does!

A more complete answer to your question. The grace of Calvary is 100% enough to cover and Atone all our sins , That’s true , but what sins? Past and current sins . Not the sins of the future , unless we repent . God can and does give grace to men in answer to their internal aspirations and prayers without the use of any external sign or ceremony. This will always be possible, because of God, grace, and the soul are spiritual things. God is not restricted to the use of material, visible symbols in dealing with men; the sacraments are not necessary in the sense that they could not have been dispensed with. But, if it be shown that God has appointed external, visible ceremonies as the means by which certain graces are to be conferred on men, then in order to obtain those graces it will be necessary for men to make use of those Divinely appointed means.

 

[Adonia]

Ok, thank you! How must it be done so I may be saved?

Hey, you are the one who claims to be the expert on the Scriptures. Listen to Jesus and do as He said to do it. "And he took a cup of wine and gave thanks to God for it. He gave it to them and said, “Each of you drink from it, for this is my blood, which confirms the covenant between God and his people. It is poured out as a sacrifice to forgive the sins of many". (Matt 26:27-28). It's wine that was used my friend, not grape juice.

 

[steaver]

Hey, you are the one who claims to be the expert on the Scriptures. Listen to Jesus and do as He said to do it. "And he took a cup of wine and gave thanks to God for it. He gave it to them and said, “Each of you drink from it, for this is my blood, which confirms the covenant between God and his people. It is poured out as a sacrifice to forgive the sins of many". (Matt 26:27-28). It's wine that was used my friend, not grape juice.

So your answer to my question, "How must it be done so I may be saved?", is I must use wine. So the Catholic position is, anyone who does not use wine in their communion service will not be saved.

 

[steaver]

What are you trying to get at? I explained very clearly. In fact, I gave you everything you need to answer your proposed question. What do you think? Are you?

That's ok. Adonia answered the question for you.

 

[steaver]

Pagan idea of justice is punishment and torment of others.............. I don't call that mercy at all. anyone torturing Jesus is not giving me mercy at all. Forgiveness means its forgiven not paid off. Forgiveness by definition cannot be a payment. Real forgiveness is you are released from your debt. If you are paid in full there is ZERO forgiveness.

You call God's plan a Pagan idea. Is this the Catholic position? How about it fellow Catholics? Do you speak as one voice? Your silence is deafening.

Isa 53:5 - But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 - All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 - He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 - He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isa 53:9 - And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 - Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 - He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

I must ask this question, do you even bother to read Scripture? It seems you have a religion of your own making, in your own mind. It doesn't even resemble traditional Catholicism. And yet your Catholic brothers here say nothing, so maybe they agree with you. If you have no understanding of the payment Jesus made for sin Utilyan, then I have no idea what kind of religion you are peddling here. It sure isn't based on Jesus Christ.

 

[utilyan]

You call God's plan a Pagan idea. Is this the Catholic position? How about it fellow Catholics? Do you speak as one voice? Your silence is deafening.

Isa 53:5 - But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 - All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 - He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 - He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isa 53:9 - And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 - Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 - He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

I must ask this question, do you even bother to read Scripture? It seems you have a religion of your own making, in your own mind. It doesn't even resemble traditional Catholicism. And yet your Catholic brothers here say nothing, so maybe they agree with you. If you have no understanding of the payment Jesus made for sin Utilyan, then I have no idea what kind of religion you are peddling here. It sure isn't based on Jesus Christ.

I would gladly ten thousand times be in "error" of believing God is not sadist any day.

What you have is a common error.

When you get a bruise its part of the healing process. Its not automaticly like western English if someone wants to "bruise you" it means they want to punch me, although it could be.

Perhaps if you use the Old Testament of the apostles? LXX.

Clement of Rome: And the Lord is pleased to purify Him by stripes.
(Epistle to the Corinthians, Sec. 16)
Justin Martyr: And the Lord is pleased to cleanse Him from the stripe.
(First Apology, Ch 51)

Justin Martyr: And the Lord wills to purify Him from affliction.
(Dialog with Trypho, Ch 13)

Augustine: The Lord is pleased to purge Him from misfortune.
(Baptism of Infants, Book 1, Section 54)

Augustine: The Lord is pleased to clear [Purgare] Him in regard to His stroke.
(Harmony of the Gospels, Book 1, Section 47)

John Chrysostom: it pleaseth the Lord to cleanse Him from His wound
(Homilies on First Corinthians, Homily 38)

Its my joy to report to you God is not a Sadist, he did not torture Jesus.

Western and pagan philosophies don't apply.

Portion of the same passage is what the Ethopian in acts was studying, he is reading the Septuigiant.
Acts 8

32Now the passage of Scripture which he was reading was this:
“HE WAS LED AS A SHEEP TO SLAUGHTER;
AND AS A LAMB BEFORE ITS SHEARER IS SILENT,
SO HE DOES NOT OPEN HIS MOUTH.

33“IN HUMILIATION HIS JUDGMENT WAS TAKEN AWAY;
WHO WILL RELATE HIS GENERATION?
FOR HIS LIFE IS REMOVED FROM THE EARTH.”


Peter mentions 53 a bit

1 Peter 2

21For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, 22WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH; 23and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. 25For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.


Nothing about God pouring out his wrath on Jesus, not here, not anywheres.

 

[steaver]

When you get a bruise its part of the healing process. Its not automaticly like western English if someone wants to "bruise you" it means they want to punch me, although it could be.

Isa 53:5 - But he was wounded for our transgressions,

Who wounded Christ for our transgressions? God or Satan?

Should we thank God for the death of Jesus Christ or thank Satan?

Rom 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Who paid your death penalty for you? Who took on your sins and iniquities for you? Who took your stripes for you?

Heb 10:29 - Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

[utilyan]

Isa 53:5 - But he was wounded for our transgressions,

Who wounded Christ for our transgressions? God or Satan?

Should we thank God for the death of Jesus Christ or thank Satan?

Rom 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Who paid your death penalty for you? Who took on your sins and iniquities for you? Who took your stripes for you?

Heb 10:29 - Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Amen to all that.

Nothing about God pouring out his wrath on Jesus, not here, not anywheres.

If Jesus being damned in our place is biblical why can't you quote it? --> Not biblical.

 

[steaver]

Amen to all that.

Nothing about God pouring out his wrath on Jesus, not here, not anywheres.

Who wounded Christ for our transgressions? God or Satan?

 

[Adonia]

So your answer to my question, "How must it be done so I may be saved?", is I must use wine. So the Catholic position is, anyone who does not use wine in their communion service will not be saved.

I merely quoted the appropriate Scripture as to what element must be used during Holy Communion, and whether you obey or not is entirely up to you. As for "being saved" I have tried to enlighten you time and time again that it is not just one thing that concerns salvation, it is the entirety of the things mentioned in the Scriptures that tells us how we get salvation.

Baptism now saves you says the Scriptures; eating His body and blood saves you says the Scriptures; having faith saves you says the Scriptures; doing good works save you says the Scriptures; loving others saves you says the Scriptures; obeying the commandments says the Scriptures, not one thing, but the whole panoply of what the Scriptures say.

 

[Adonia]

Who wounded Christ for our transgressions? God or Satan?

We wounded Christ BY our transgressions.

 

[Yeshua1]

A more complete answer to your question. The grace of Calvary is 100% enough to cover and Atone all our sins , That’s true , but what sins? Past and current sins . Not the sins of the future , unless we repent . God can and does give grace to men in answer to their internal aspirations and prayers without the use of any external sign or ceremony. This will always be possible, because of God, grace, and the soul are spiritual things. God is not restricted to the use of material, visible symbols in dealing with men; the sacraments are not necessary in the sense that they could not have been dispensed with. But, if it be shown that God has appointed external, visible ceremonies as the means by which certain graces are to be conferred on men, then in order to obtain those graces it will be necessary for men to make use of those Divinely appointed means.

Jesus died for ALL of the sins that the saved will ever commit, as God can declare that we are now fully justified and saved to Him by the Cross, and not by anything else!

 

[Walter]

Jesus died for ALL of the sins that the saved will ever commit, as God can declare that we are now fully justified and saved to Him by the Cross, and not by anything else!

'IF we confess our sins He is faithful and just.to forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness' 1John 1:9

 

[Yeshua1]

'IF we confess our sins He is faithful and just.to forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness' 1JOHM 1:9

refers to our fellowship with God, as our relationship is terntaslly secured by death/resurrection of Christ!

 

[Walter]

refers to our fellowship with God, as our relationship is terntaslly secured by death/resurrection of Christ!

Take the position of OSAS up with the Free Will Baptist, et al

 

[Yeshua1]

Take the position of OSAS up with the Free Will Baptist, et al

Not OSAS , its that the death of jesus covers all of our sins, correct?

 

[utilyan]

Who wounded Christ for our transgressions? God or Satan?

What is the Hebrew word for "FOR"?

The choices are only God and Satan? What about Sponge Bob?

You are trying to read in PAGAN human sacrifice philosophies. God is not bound by any physical, spiritual or legal mechanics.


God is Good, the problem is he is way BETTER then you claim he is. Your shooting for such a low low bar.

You expect way too much justified evil from God.


God is not a angry chimp that throws a fit. Your expectations of him is insulting.