canadyjd
Well-Known Member
We disagree. God gave clear instructions in several places on how Christians should view these issues. We should follow what scripture tells us.
Peace to you
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Would you support a Just War from the Bible then?
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
Peace to you
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Of course there is. I know you disagree, but that doesn’t change the fact God has commanded us to love our enemies, to pray for our enemies, to live in peace as far as we are able.
You cannot follow those commands while killing your enemies.
Peace to you
You cannot be a government official and obey God’s law of capital punishment without administering the law in that regard. I don’t find that to be grounds to quit your position if you find yourself in that position. God put you in that position and you shouldn’t bear the sword in vain.
It is possible to execute judgment and still care about the people who are judged. There are many illustrations throughout history if you want to see them. The civil war is full of them. I’m sure that the world is full of them.
God also allows for us to self defense ourselves, and that killing is permitted as a last resort if not murder
if we did not fight against the tyranny of England, would still be English colonies , and if we did not fight Hitler, would all be speaking German now
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Correct
I don’t believe God would put a Christian in a position that would violate His commands. He may put a person in such a position to show mercy, but not violate His commands. I think of Desman Dos, WW2 Medal of Honor awarded that served as a combat medic and refused to carry a weapon and kill the enemy.
Yeah, the Catholic Church was really good at showing mercy while executing those they considered heretics. History is full of such mercy in judgment.
Killing people is not showing mercy. Nothing can change that truth.
Peace to you
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Pray for those that persecute you. Do not repay evil for evil. Vengeance belongs to God. If struck on the right cheek, offer the left cheek as well.
We live our lives ready to die for the cause of Christ, like Him and meekness, without violence
Who is adequate for such things?
Nothing many, I fear.
Peace to you
Reap what you sew though, for if you want to rape children and women, do not be surprised if someone uses a weapons to take you down and out
I think of Alvin York. WWI Medal of Honor awarded for the number of lives saved because he used a gun.
I would not call that a just war. You obviously don’t have any intention of having an open mind about the subject. I don’t run to Hitler or Mussolini for the picture of exemplary behavior. I didn’t think you would do the like. I gave you more credit than that.
Who are you showing mercy to?
Proverbs 24:10-12
If thou faint in the day of adversity, thy strength is small.
If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain;
If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it?
and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?
Has God changed His mind about taking up the cause of others?
The response of a pacifist.
“Excuse me sir, I see this other fellow is stabbing you to death, are you certain of your eternal state. I can help you with that but I feel it’s wrong to get involved with actually helping you. I have this sword that I have been commanded to buy at the expense of my own comfortable attire. But I have no idea why I am carrying it because it just seems like extra weight that I want to lay aside.”
I am not saying that you specifically feel this way but what would you do if you find yourself in this scenario?
In WWII, do you feel like it would be right to say to Britain that they shouldn’t have done whatever they did to make God mad at them. Obviously, God doesn’t put his own people in places where they would be killing people. They must have been very wicked.
The conscientious objectors logic is muddled. The wicked were the attackers and it was right and honorable for the Americans who joined the British in the war because the country was slow to take up their cause.
I am not saying that you should just listen to me and go enlist. I just hear logic that uses portions of Scripture to its own advantage and ignores wisdom because it is OT.
It is just not a legitimate argument to say God has predestined all of His own people to die if they ever have physical conflict.
Are you a citizen of your country? Render unto your country (Caesar) their due. Drafted? Serve. No obligation to serve? Don’t, and with clear conscience.
I’m not saying that you should join the military if you’re a Christian. But being a Christian shouldn’t be what stops you. If you have other places to be and jobs to do, if God has given you the responsibility of a church or mission field responsibility, God can protect your position.
To just say Christians should not go to war is not a Scriptural position. It’s a personal position. The Bible makes at least as much allowance for it as it seems to make prohibition.
In your showing of mercy, you have done nothing to show mercy to the innocent.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Simply untrue. I have served in the Army and as a police officer. My position on this issue, as well as the death penalty, has changed BECAUSE I have an open mind to the word of God. Many folks have a position that does indeed ignore what scripture teaches and looks much more like a secular worldview than a biblical worldview.
To the person, just like the Apostle Paul, who does not deserve it.
We are not OT Hebrews.
No, not really. A twisted caricature of the response of a pacifist.
You have switched the discussion from serving as a soldier and killing the enemy in combat to a question of self defense.
By the way, Jesus told Peter to put his sword away when he used it in self defense.
Again, nations bear the power of the sword. Christians shouldn’t participate in the killing. There are many ways to serve your nation without killing.
And so we disagree.
Pot meet kettle
All those that desire to live a Godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. Take up your cross daily and follow Me. The slave is not above the Master. If they persecute Me they will persecute you.
Who is adequate for such things. Not many I fear.
There are many ways to serve your country, even in the military, without killing.
And so we disagree
Again, simply untrue.
Peace to you
You love your neighbor so much that you hope there are enough pieces of him left to send humanitarian aid to. I just hope you are not the guy who I call for help to if I ever need it. But I am still having a hard time believing that you are as callous to others needs as you say you are. I don’t see you standing idly by while people are being hurt.
And the innocent person who you will not engage on behalf of, they get mercy how?
It is clear that the wisdom of Solomon is not rivaled but rather ridiculed as outdated.
But an unfortunate reality?
It seems less of an issue if it happens to thousands of people in a country where you don’t have to watch?
It is the same thing. I assumed that since it was a just war, we were not putting ourselves in as the aggressor. I see the position of defender the same whether it is across the sea, on behalf of my own country or a country that has no ability to defend itself, or on my street where it is not more than a neighborhood fight. Innocent people require defense. That is the scenario. I just brought it closer to home.
You don’t really believe that do you? This is a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of the event. (I don’t mean that you do it intentionally.)
Jesus told Peter not to defend Jesus, Himself. Nobody was there after Peter. To say that Peter was supposed to carry a sword for nothing is to not understand why Peter was told to put his sword away.
Jesus was telling Peter that it was His time to suffer and not to hinder the work of salvation. To give any other meaning must explain the purpose of the sword otherwise.
I think we already know it. But there is only so much that I can read without sharing the other side.
Hi.
I don’t think we are talking about war between churches and everyone else!
There is a big difference. No church that I know of is preparing to do any advance work for the second coming.
Apparently.
For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces
The premier's policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from
www.timesofisrael.com
Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Hyperbolic nonsense
Never sad I was. Your imagination is getting the best of you
Again, you ate assuming things that are untrue. There are ways to engage without killing, without violence.
You have misunderstood the entire passage when Jesus told the disciples to buy swords He was emphasizing it was going to be very dangerous for them in the coming years. They told Him they had two swords and He said “That is enough”. If Jesus meant for all of them to have swords for self defense, why were two enough?
You have misunderstood.
Will you address the 1 Timothy passage where Paul says very specifically God demonstrated mercy toward him as an example for future Christians to follow?
Peace to you
This is the only 1Timothy quote in the thread. I agree with it.
Do you agree with the Book of Genesis?
Yes I agree with the Book of 1Timothy.
There is a reason why we use references and not just Book names.
1 Timothy 1:16
Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
As a nation, we are responsible to protect our own people. You can’t just say that the aggressor needs the Gospel so i will not do anything about the people being attacked. Some of those being attacked also need the Gospel. You don’t do them any kindness by ignoring them. But I am speaking to a wall in this regard. If I remember correctly, you don’t believe that there are any options offered for redemption. You are either lost or you are going to be saved, is a generalization of your belief. Am I wrong? With that mindset, you don’t have to worry about serving in the military either. If you’re predetermined to, you won’t be able to resist anyway.
There are two ways to view the question. Nationally and personally. Nationally there is nothing wrong with a just war. Personally you disagree and I don’t. Personally, there is more opportunity to show mercy in conflict. Go take more prisoners than potshots.
If you don’t agree with it, that is fine. I don’t think it’s right for the military to go in and mindlessly kill every person who you see. History and culture bear out that the majority of people and nations feel the same way. I don’t see any benefit in pushing your personal beliefs and experiences onto others. If what you saw in the army and the police force wasn’t as honorable as what you think it should have been, I hope that you were. But that shouldn’t stop us as living our lives toward an ideal.
Mercy and war are not mutually exclusive.
No. Do you think one has to be in the military to have a viable view about these issues? I've never been a police officer, either. Am I disqualified from speaking about the issues?
You would have to define the specifics. If the Nazis were already subdued, I would view that as murder. If the Nazis were a threat to the soldier's life, or the life of the people they were liberating, that would be killing.
When it is carried out lawfully. I believe those who take the lives of others have forfeited their right to live. But that involves a lot of elements that have to be determined before the execution. Was the perpetrator rational when he murdered is a big one. There are conditions that lead to people committing violence that they would not have committed had those conditions not arisen. An example might be psychosis resulting from infection. People do not choose to get infections, unlike people who murder within conditions they intentionally brought on themselves. A man within the throes of Urinary Tract Infection, for example, cannot be processed identically to a man who gets drunk and murders.
Going back to the GI that shot Nazis based on emotional reaction, I can understand it. I cannot condone it, either. I didn't need to be there to understand that emotional reaction, though. The documentaries I've seen have provided the extent of the evil that occurred in those camps. Similar to the man in Texas that murdered his young daughter's molester, my sympathies lean to the GI (and the man in Texas), and it is his emotional response that must weigh heavily in his prosecution. I think that before a jury of his peers, he's going to receive a majority verdict that, while his actions did in fact contradict the Law of this Nation, the likelihood that his response was something that individual couldn't be expected to have had much control over. At the same time, someone who commits "crimes of passion" based solely on a desire to kill should be rooted out of society as well.
Some might seek to excuse at least some Nazis as "simply doing their duty." I don't. If our government became lawless and began murdering as opposed to deaths resulting from lawful procedure, the soldier has a duty to maintain a lawful position.
Now, what exactly is it about my statement that seems to have offended you? You don't think our military would be stronger if more soldiers were Christians?
I absolutely support it. People are dying while Hamas plays politics with the lives of their own people. Go in, root out the terrorists, and let's see how things go.
As far as Zionist expansion, I'll have an opinion on that when it's a reality.
We are also commanded to bring peace, and to live lawfully under the governing powers God Himself places in their roles. War and self-defense aren't separate issues. By necessity our country has a military. That military should be for the protection of every Christian American. Our military plays a vital role in our ability to preach the Gospel. And it also provides individual Christians the right to decide their role in the entire process. Nothing wrong with being anti-war, all of us should be. But there is nothing wrong with believing one's role is having a part in the freedom we enjoy in this country, either.
If the intent of our involvement in both of those conflicts was a genuine effort to stem the spread of communism, our involvement was justified. If we can't look at our country today and see Nikita Khrushchev has made true on his promise of destroying America from the inside, then we aren't paying attention. If we think the state of our government, schools, and media aren't compromised, we aren't paying attention. The Liberal Agenda is the offspring of Russia's promise, it's primary invasion.
This is a little contradictory, no? "There have been no prudent wars in my lifetime, but we should have wiped Afghanistan off the map?"
How do you feel about leaving Afghanistan, and leaving behind billions of dollars of high-tech weaponry that strengthens known terrorists?
I'd be interested to see a scriptural justification for your argument. Should Christians also refrain from being police officers? Are not both better served by people willing to lay down their lives for their neighbors? There is a difference between killing and murder, and it is God Himself that places everyone who is involved in mediating the difference. Why would he not used those best suited for the work?