Would you support the baptism of a KKK leader if they had no intention of leaving racism behind?

[Baptist Believer]

I know. My doctor successfully treats type 1 diabetes with diet. (Yes type 1)

If you had checked out the link on Cushing Disease carefully, you would know that most people with Cushings become diabetic, especially as it becomes more advanced. I had uncontrolled diabetes (drugs could not control it, nor did careful eating) until the tumor was removed. My diabetes was immediately controllable after the surgery, and cleared up completely within six months.

 

[GoodTidings]

I generally agree, but it is possible for people to have enormous blind spots. Many of our Baptist ancestors in the South were racists, and when it was legal, owned slaves. I do not think we can simply claim they were not saved because the hardness of the human heart and the various types of blind spots that entangle all of us.

Why can't we claim that they were not saved if they were genuine racists?

 

[GoodTidings]

We hear this all the time that certain diseases cause body FAT.

I don't believe it because you can't make SOMETHING (FAT) out of NOTHING, that's primordial creation and only God can do that.

Also we have seen pictures of people in Nazi concentration camps who WERE on a VERY LIMITED DIET, I have yet to see a fat person among them (with cushings?).

P.S. maybe you should find another doctor - second opinion?

Not all diseases cause you to waste away. It is not a matter of making fat out of nothing. But there ways for your body to convert things like insulin into fat.

 

[Baptist Believer]

We hear this all the time that certain diseases cause body FAT.

Yes. That's because it is true.

I don't believe it because you can't make SOMETHING (FAT) out of NOTHING, that's primordial creation and only God can do that.

The "something" is food. If you stop eating food you don't live. A person with Cushings cannot metabolize food properly because of the massive amounts of cortisol in their system. If you eat, you gain fat. If you don't eat, you die.

Also we have seen pictures of people in Nazi concentration camps who WERE on a VERY LIMITED DIET, I have yet to see a fat person among them (with cushings?).

(1) Cushings is quite rare, perhaps as frequent as 12 persons out of a million, but often thought to be around 6-8 in a million. (2) A person with Cushings is always exhausted and would not be able to do much labor. A person like that would have been killed very quickly. (3) Even if they were not murdered, a person with Cushings would have a hard time surviving in such a hostile environment.

P.S. maybe you should find another doctor - second opinion?

I don't have to see another doctor, except for follow-ups. I guess you missed that I was diagnosed with the disease by two completely different endocrinologists who did their own testing and that I had the surgery which caused almost all of the symptoms to start improving immediately. There is no doubt that is what I had, nor am I over 400 pounds now. I am about 100 pounds down from my previous weight and still losing. I am the size of an offensive lineman in football, 6'05" and very broad-shouldered, so I am more than halfway to my ideal weight already, which is about 230 pounds, without dieting.

 

[Hippiechick]

While this is a hypothetical question at this time, it was a real question in my parent's Baptist church in rural East Texas about a dozen years ago, with one minor change: The pastor wanted to receive the Grand Dragon without baptism by immersion since the man was afraid of water. I don't know how it eventually turned out, because my mother decided to join the nearby Methodist church immediately after that question was announced.

It brings up several questions at once (1) Does one need to repent of obvious sins (as perceived by the congregation and local community) before entering into a church fellowship? (2) When presenting the gospel, should the evangelist bring up the call of discipleship to Jesus that brings obligations in terms of morality, propriety, and service? In other words, how should "counting the cost" and "taking up the cross" be presented? (3) Should baptism be skipped over if the candidate has a fear of water? (4) Should the church simply trust that the Holy Spirit will work everything out in the life of the presumed convert, and receive that person into the fellowship, at potential cost to the reputation of the gospel and the church in the eyes of the larger community? (5) What role does church discipline play?

The reason I ask this question it that wise answers to these questions and the ones you will likely raise will help all of us clarify church polity in terms of persons who want to follow Jesus but appear unconvicted of obvious (at least to us) sin.

Please select every option that applies and give comments and additional insights that explain your reasoning.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Why can't we claim that they were not saved if they were genuine racists?

In other areas of their lives, they appeared to have evidence of God's work.

To take this closer to home, I have had extended family members from previous generations who manifested the fruit of the Spirit but had a strong aversion toward people of another ethnic group. It was a blind spot that was culturally enforced throughout the childhood and most of their adult lives. They heard preachers preach of the "curse of Ham" and they followed the notes in the Scofield Bible that condemned the entire continent of Africa.

Their racism was rooted in theological error and the norms of the Jim Crow South. God knows their hearts, their intentions, their understanding, and is likely quite gracious toward those failures.

 

[robycop3]

If a person has the ability to obtain all the food he/she wants, (Especially one who raises his/her own food)while not depriving someone else, he/she isn't actually a glutton, according to the Scriptural definition. The Hebrew word rendered "glutton" in many Bible versions is "zabal", which means "worthless or vile".

And I know many hefty people who aren't over-eaters, so we can't just simply say, "That person is quite-fat; must be a glutton."

Of course, feasting while your neighbor goes hungry is always wrong.

And I know there are people in many parts of the world that are in a famine, but it's next-to-impossible to get food to them because of many circumstances, not the least of which is they're in an enemy nation.

But remember what the HOLY SPIRIT had Paul write, to not judge others on account of what they ate or how much. But he also had Paul remind people to not be gluttons at Communion so that some went hungry.

 

[Hippiechick]

Well, I think the person joining the church should of course repent of all sins; it is the duty of the church to explain grace and forgiveness.
For #2 I do think the preacher should Express how important it is to serve others as Jesus did. And also to help around the church, whatever you can do.... pull weeds, clean bathrooms, bring food, all the while getting to know the others you worship with. WE are the church, so we must be united.
I'll stop here, but I will throw in that we should always be open for all. (Unless of course the said person is interrupting or bothering others.) I would hate to turn someone away who is looking for acceptance and love. Sometimes it takes time for one to be truly saved, but they did show up looking for something..

 

[HankD]

I don't have to see another doctor, except for follow-ups. I guess you missed that I was diagnosed with the disease by two completely different endocrinologists who did their own testing and that I had the surgery which caused almost all of the symptoms to start improving immediately. There is no doubt that is what I had, nor am I over 400 pounds now. I am about 100 pounds down from my previous weight and still losing. I am the size of an offensive lineman in football, 6'05" and very broad-shouldered, so I am more than halfway to my ideal weight already, which is about 230 pounds, without dieting.

May the LORD continue to bless you in your recovery brother. I have prayed for you.

Still, I believe your case and others are the exception to the rule.

As to the o/p question - if there was no outward manifestation of a diminishing of the demonstration of racism - no, if there was insistence i would suggest he/she go elsewhere to be baptized.

there is really no such thing as racism. there is one race, the human race.

Acts 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

there is manufactured "racial" supremacy as was shown in the last world war - Arian Supremacy and Yamoto Supremacy.

Yes there is some of the sin of white supremacy as well as black supremacy in America.

Back in the 60's i was accosted in the city of Boston and was called "a blue eyed devil" by blacks.
i was young and athletic and escaped them before they were able to beat me.

this is the sin of the Pride of Life.

 

[robycop3]

Two Confederate generals who were devout Christians were Stonewall Jackson & J. E. B. Stuart.

Stonewall Jackson, before the war, taught slaves & their children how to read & write. His family owned 6 slaves; three, a mother & 2 sons, they received as gifts, 2 of the othere each requested he purchase them, as they'd heard of his kindness, while the last was an orphaned "special needs" child. He educated all of them, treating them as paid servants instead of slaves. One of the men served as his orderly thruout the Civil war til Stonewall died, & was at his side at his death.

However, SJ was quite-opposed to the Emancipation Proclamation. He asked, "Where will those people go & how will they earn a living when their massas turn them out?" That's why he was against the EP because no provisions had been made for the care of the former slaves once they were free. BUT YET, SOME IDIOTS WANNA REMOVE ALL PUBLIC STATUES OF SJ & RE-NAME SCHOOLS, ETC. THAT WERE NAMED AFTER HIM ! !

Stuart believed the same as SJ, except he was opposed to slavery, period. He fought for states' rights for Virginia, as did Gen'l's Jackson & Lee. He was also known to have treated blacks kindly, but not to the extent Jackson did.

Something that had been ingrained in all 3 of those generals - they believed blacks were inferior in intelligence, though not thru any fault of their own. Lee pointed out that, before they'd been brought over as slaves, they'd lived a primitive existence, & that God had simply made them with lower intelligence. That had been taught to those men all their lives, handed down thru several generations. But it was apparent those men did not hate blacks, nor sought to oppress them.

 

[OnlyaSinner]

I did not participate in the poll, as I think baptism and church membership should be considered separately. With one exception, folks being baptized in the Baptist (or fully baptistic "Bible" churches) I've attended have had meeting(s) with the pastor to discern whether their profession of faith was real - within the limits of human discernment, of course. Only then were they baptized. (The exception came at a baptism when the sister of one being baptized was moved by the Holy Spirit to receive Christ as Savior. That limited human discernment concluded that the profession was real and she was baptized immediately - and has had a fruitful Christian walk since then.)
Answering the basic OP question, I would ask such a candidate for baptism how he/she reconciled being God's child with racist activities, to determine as much as possible the reality of salvation. As noted above by others, I have a hard time believing that, in today's world, one could be truly saved while practicing such open discrimination for no other reason than skin color or ethnicity. Probably I would not baptize such an unrepentant candidate, so as not to cause others to stumble due to the candidate's un-Christian walk.

Applicants for membership should be in agreement with the fundamental portions of a church's doctrinal statement and be willing to tolerate any minor differences without murmuring. The same goes for things like church polity and Bible-based standards within the local church's "founding" documents. (Quotes, because the base foundation of any truly Christian church is Christ.)

 

[rlvaughn]

(1) Does one need to repent of obvious sins (as perceived by the congregation and local community) before entering into a church fellowship?

If churches practiced the immediacy of baptism as did the apostles and early church, I'm not sure this would be our question. The requirements for baptism is repentance toward God and belief in the Lord Jesus Christ, and a credible profession of such. If continuing headlong in their "obvious sins" proved their profession of contrition and repentance to be false, then the church would deal with that through church discipline.

(3) Should baptism be skipped over if the candidate has a fear of water?

No, never.

 

[Reformed]

If churches practiced the immediacy of baptism as did the apostles and early church, I'm not sure this would be our question. The requirements for baptism is repentance toward God and belief in the Lord Jesus Christ, and a credible profession of such. If continuing headlong in their "obvious sins" proved their profession of contrition and repentance to be false, then the church would deal with that through church discipline.
No, never.

The only thing I would add is what I addressed in my first response in this thread. If a candidate for baptism is defiant and intends to persist in known sin then their profession of faith is suspect and they are not a proper subject of the ordinance of baptism. I will amend that comment to say that "If a candidate for baptism displays defiance and intends to persist in known sin". If there is a lack of repentance from the get-go then it is the individual's profession that is in question, not the immediacy of baptism.

 

[rlvaughn]

Reformed, if I understand you correctly, I definitely agree. The only biblical reason I see for not baptizing someone is that we don't accept their profession as credible. If someone displays defiance to continue in sin, that calls the profession of faith in question, in my opinion.

 

[Reformed]

Reformed, if I understand you correctly, I definitely agree. The only biblical reason I see for not baptizing someone is that we don't accept their profession as credible. If someone displays defiance to continue in sin, that calls the profession of faith in question, in my opinion.

Brother, affirm. You understand me correctly.

 

[Alcott]

We hear this all the time that certain diseases cause body FAT.

Yes. That's because it is true.

The "something" is food. If you stop eating food you don't live. A person with Cushings cannot metabolize food properly because of the massive amounts of cortisol in their system. If you eat, you gain fat. If you don't eat, you die.

You go to such lengths to claim that being very fat can be caused by disease, so you can't presume any obese person is a glutton. First, if there is nothing to indicate disease is involved, would you baptize that person? And, if disease causes 'symptoms' that are predominately directly related to bad or obsessive/compulsive behavior, is it possible that racism could be such a symptom? If you do a search for this kind of info, you get a lot of repetition with little talking about that partciular question."Race is a social construct" ... "There are no races; just clines" ... and one interesting one I found claims people don't genetically fear people who look different nor do they fear snakes in that way" IOW all our concepts of the world are taught behaviors. Well, babies fear loud noises "genetically" from what I can tell [So much for that Little Drummer Boy song?] There are such neurological conditions as corprolalia, which lead to involuntary utterances of obscene and derogatory remarks-- would you baptize that type of person who may be calling you __(any number of names)__ while it's happening?

 

[Reformed]

This thread has taken a rabbit trail into the absurd. I guess this thread proves that even the most inane topics can be debated ad infinitum, ad nauseaum, reductio ad absurdum. Many individuals are saved from lifestyles marked by destructive behavior such as substance abuse (drugs and alcohol) and even gluttony. Must we wait until they have been sober for an indefinite period of time before administering baptism? Is it not enough that they have repented of their sins and are beginning their new life as a disciple of Jesus Christ? This is a far cry from a person who professes faith in Christ while at the same time displaying defiance by unapologetically continuing in their sinful behavior. Give it a rest.

 

[BroTom64]

If churches practiced the immediacy of baptism as did the apostles and early church, I'm not sure this would be our question. The requirements for baptism is repentance toward God and belief in the Lord Jesus Christ, and a credible profession of such. If continuing headlong in their "obvious sins" proved their profession of contrition and repentance to be false, then the church would deal with that through church discipline.

In Acts 2 it appears that the 3000 were baptized upon their "receiving their word".
Acts 2:37 ¶ Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 ¶ And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

In Acts 8 we have the example of how Simon was dealt with by the apostles:
Acts 8:9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 ¶ Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.

I seems to me Baptism should follow an repentant confession of faith in Jesus Christ as Lord. Discipleship, teaching, correction and church discipline are to follow. As for the KKKer I would talk privately with him about the his attitude. I usually wait a week or two before baptizing to arrange things, invite family and friends, talk with parents if the baptism canidate is a child and deal with questions like the OP.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

I generally agree, but it is possible for people to have enormous blind spots. ... I do not think we can simply claim they were not saved because the hardness of the human heart and the various types of blind spots that entangle all of us.

This point would be hard to overemphasize, and is most difficult to come to grips with individually. Blind spots are, by definition, things we cannot see in ourselves, though we may recognize them in others.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

...Many of our Baptist ancestors in the South were racists, and when it was legal, owned slaves....

Not quite on target—North and South were both quite racist. Attitudes about slavery do not determine whether one is racist, not even close. Furthermore, a host of modern blacks are some of the most racist people in the world.

Take a trip around the world today and throughout history and you will see that racism abounds. The world is, without a doubt, full of "tribal" prejudice. You will likely find that common to all is the notion that the prejudice is justified.