Yes. If he cares about the hairs on my head and when they fall out, and when a sparrow falls, then surely he cares about and is in ultimate control of these things we tend to think he cares not for.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Wouldn't God have to be "Open" in order to Allow Chance?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
Yes. If he cares about the hairs on my head and when they fall out, and when a sparrow falls, then surely he cares about and is in ultimate control of these things we tend to think he cares not for.
DrJamesAch
New Member
I think it would have been much better if the OP would have defined Open Theism before others attempted to debate whether his question fits Open Theism or not, because it is clear that neither the OP understands it, nor do many of those posting. I've seen a few, even among those I debate regularly, that seem to know what it is, but overall, virtually everything debated in here has nothing to do with what Open Theism really is, and it is pointless to debate the OP unless he can show that he understands what Open Theism is.
God permitting chance has nothing to do with Open Theism, but again, if the debates are to be developed in accordance with the OP's question, he has to define why he believes his question is legitimate based on his understanding of Open Theism.
God permitting chance has nothing to do with Open Theism, but again, if the debates are to be developed in accordance with the OP's question, he has to define why he believes his question is legitimate based on his understanding of Open Theism.
This is a begging the question fallacy. One does not lead to the other. This is most likely a result of a poor definition of the Sovereignty of God.
Whatever.:laugh:
Well there you have it. Probably sums up all your theology. With the nice little smilie to boot.
IF His god was, there would be no chance in operation!
Open theism allows for God to "learn with His creation", so wouldn't that be God chancing things, as he would be blinded to final results at times?
preacher4truth
Active Member
The 'Hard' Determinist's Manifesto:
'Trust in God at all times' -- Psalm 62:8. All times means in every single thing in life.
The Soft Happenstance's Manifesto:
'Oh no, chance has happened, run for your lives!!!' :laugh: :wavey:
'Trust in God at all times' -- Psalm 62:8. All times means in every single thing in life.
The Soft Happenstance's Manifesto:
'Oh no, chance has happened, run for your lives!!!' :laugh: :wavey:
Last edited by a moderator:
Thank you. And yes, I believe that God is in control at all times, and at the same time, God allows some things (not all things) to happen purely by chance.
All analogies fail, but imagine being dealt a poker hand. The hand you draw is purely chance according to a random shuffle. But what you do with those cards you are dealt by random is completely within your control. And we know that a professional gambler can win with any hand he is dealt.
God can allow men their free will choices, and yet bring about any outcome he desires. An example is Joseph's brothers. God did not cause Joseph's brothers to hate him, scripture says God never tempts any man to sin (Jam 1:13).
However, God in his foreknowledge knew Joseph's brothers would plot to kill Joseph. I believe God influenced Reuben to convince his brothers not to kill Joseph, but throw him in a pit, and I believe God knew exactly when the caravan would come along, which would give the brothers the idea of selling Joseph as a slave. Of course, Joseph was sold as a slave and taken to Egypt, which resulted in Joseph being able to save all his family years later.
To quote the old song: "And that brings us back to 'do(e)'"...
i did not want to debate Open theism, for that is NOT biblical concept of God, just thought that way of viewing God only way to alow for chance?
Perhaps you have a god, I have a God. And my God spoke of chance in his holy scriptures.
Now maybe you prefer to listen to Calvin and others who say there is no such thing as chance, but I will believe God the Father, and God the Son who both spoke of chance in scriptures. My God does not speak about nonsensical things that do not exist, and he does not mislead people.
1 King 22
20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
HankD
I do not understand this response. Exactly what are you trying to say by posting these particular scriptures? And what do these scriptures have to do with whether chance exists or not?
So, please explain what you were trying to say here.
ALL things are known by God,a nd either he caused or permitted it to happen, but he still was "in control", so NO chance/fate/destiny/could have/should have etc!
DrJamesAch
New Member
I agree that Open Theism is false doctrine, but you opened the door to it by claiming that choice was comparable to it, and thus if you are questioning whether or not choice is comparable to Open Theism, then you have to know what Open Theism is. You may not agree with choice, but to attribute choice to Open Theism demonstrates that you may not be clear on what Open Theism is.
DrJamesAch
New Member
You are amalgamating different issues here: what God KNOWS and what God DOES. You can not say that chance can be Open Theism because OT holds that God doesn't know the future, He only learns of events as they occur. But part of chance is having an idea of what possible future consequences exist as a result of a particular action taken. Whether the action taken is based on experience or foreknowledge, there still must be some element of future inclination that influences a person's choice, and as such, choice is completely inconsistent with Open Theism.
Confusing what God KNOWS from what He DOES is also further hampering the issue. God does not always ACT based on what He KNOWS, nor does He have to. Claiming that God MUST make an event come to pass simply because He knows it will is actually more consistent with Open Theism because the knowledge of an event and the response to it have already been determined, decided and acted upon which leaves no room for alternatives, and it is on that basis that Open Theism in part argues that God can't possibly know the future.
Your critique of choice therefore is actually more consistent with Open Theism than what you are trying to prove otherwise.
So God decides who wins Monday night football? God decides, directly who wins the coin toss? Is that your position?