you are correct!
meant to state here that God has ordained what happens, and that He causes that to happen either thru sirectly causing it, or else by using those "decisions" made by third parties, but always in His sovereign Will/plans/purposes!
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Wouldn't God have to be "Open" in order to Allow Chance?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
you are correct!
meant to state here that God has ordained what happens, and that He causes that to happen either thru sirectly causing it, or else by using those "decisions" made by third parties, but always in His sovereign Will/plans/purposes!
Since NOTHING that has ever been done has been outside of his direct control, why wouldn't He be seen as the cause, either directly/indirectly?
just stating that NOTHING happens by 'chance/luck", and that there is no true/absolute 'free will" apart from that of God's!
have to define "chance", are you saying that things happen that God did not forsee happening, or that he allows for "real free will?"
DrJamesAch
New Member
So you admit to ignoring the scriptures in 1 Cor 14 that prove that God is not the author of confusion, which means He doesn't cause all confusion, you ignore James 1:13 which shows that God does not tempt man, and you ignore Jeremiah 32 as Winman rightly pointed out that there were acts that God specifically stated He did not cause, nor even entered His mind.
You and other Calvinists have been given several clear passages in the Bible that prove God does not cause everything He foreknows, and yet you offer human rationalization and circular reasoning to avoid the Scriptures.
Everything that Calvinism has taught you is to ignore the Bible where it is clear on a matter and rely on your presuppositions developed by men. God is not going to hold you blameless for accusing Him of rape, murder, child molestation, blasphemy and all the temptations men have ever faced. You need to stop confusing permission and foreknowledge with causation.
Are you saying that there are things God does not know? that anything happens that He is caught off guard, that it was due to luck/chance?
DrJamesAch
New Member
Are you admitting to deliberately by-passing the statements I have made the show foreknowledge does not equal causation. Are you purposely ignoring what has been shown to you that just because God knows all things doesn't mean He causes all things to happen?
You have been shown 3 specific passages of Scripture that show you are wrong, and you continue to appeal to the traditions of Calvinism instead of the Bible. Forget what your Reformers taught you WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY???
1 Corinthians 14:33, James 1:13, Jeremiah 32:35. Are you calling God a liar?
just saying that ALL History was already purposed/planned/dtermined by Will of God, as He knows all, due to Him already ahving all things going forward per His decrees/plans/purposes!
Are you saying that when the Apsotle drew lots for Apsotle to trepalce judas, that was 'chance?"
The casting of lots to choose a replacement for Judas can hardly be considered the norm. The apostles prayed to God earnestly before casting this lot.
Acts 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
Just because the apostles prayed in this one instance for a supernatural sign from God does not mean chance does not exist.
The Lord himself spoke of chance. I guess he was not a Calvinist afterall, as you certainly can't get a Calvinist here to admit that chance exists. :laugh:
Calvinists will tell you that scripture doesn't mean what "it says", and then tell you what God or Jesus really meant to say.
You see, in Calvinism, God is not able to properly say what he really means. God will say "all men", the Calvinist will correct God and tell you that he really meant "the elect only".
Again, both God the Father and Jesus the Son spoke of chance, that is good enough for me. I don't care what the Reformers believed.
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DrJamesAch
New Member
It appears you are having difficulty reconciling your arguments to the Bible. You said in plain and unambiguous terms, that God causes everything to happen because he foreknows it.
So again, 1 Corinthians 14:33, James 1:13, Jeremiah 32:35. Are you calling God a liar? I'm not going to delve off into your human rationalizing. I'm going to stick with the Bible until you deal with the Bible, not the logic of a philosophical system called Calvinism.
According to the scripture there are just certain (actually IMO, many) things we just can't figure out this side of heaven (under the sun).
Ecclesiastes 8:17 Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labour to seek it out, yet he shall not find it; yea further; though a wise man think to know it, yet shall he not be able to find it.
Personally I believe random chance is just as inaccurate as open theology.
Personally I believe random chance is just as inaccurate as open theology.
HankD
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Hank said:
Well, that is an OPINION. Both God the Father and Jesus spoke of chance. I do not believe the Father or Jesus would speak of something that does not exist, as that would be misleading.
If the apostles believed that chance did not exist, there would be no need to pray for God to show them which man should be chosen as the successor of Judas. But that is exactly what they did.
Acts 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
If chance did not exist, and this lot was already determined, then there would be no need to pray for it. So obviously the apostles believed random chance exists, but wanted God's intervention in this particular lot.
In fact, if all things are determined, then why pray? Prayer cannot change anything if all things are already determined.
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DrJamesAch
New Member
1 Samuel 23:
9 And David knew that Saul secretly practised mischief against him; and he said to Abiathar the priest, Bring hither the ephod.
10 Then said David, O Lord God of Israel, thy servant hath certainly heard that Saul seeketh to come to Keilah, to destroy the city for my sake.
11 Will the men of Keilah deliver me up into his hand? will Saul come down, as thy servant hath heard? O Lord God of Israel, I beseech thee, tell thy servant. And the Lord said, He will come down.
Notice God in his foreknowledge predicts what will happen. David asked God WILL Saul deliver David, and the Lord says "He WILL come down".
Now notice what happens in verse 13:
"Then David and his men, which were about six hundred, arose and departed out of Keilah, and went whithersoever they could go. And it was told Saul that David was escaped from Keilah; and he forbare to go forth."
God knows before time what will happen as indicated here, but David based on that information changed his course of action, which changed Saul's response EVEN AFTER THE LORD SAID THAT SAUL WOULD COME DOWN. If God always determined everything and forced the outcome based on His foreknowledge, then Saul would have done exactly what God said He would do-but he didn't.
Inspector Javert
Active Member
No....
Open Theism is false
God does leave some things to chance.
I doubt God chooses to interfere in any given game of Yahtzee on every throw of the dice. If I thought he did......I'd never bother to play. He could and probably does sometimes. But as a rule, he merely sustains Natural Law i.e. the physics of the dice swishing in the cup and bouncing off of the table etc.. and lets Natural Law (which he is sovereign over) do it's thing.
God is sovereign even over the roll of dice in at least 3 ways:
1.) He created the Natural Laws which govern the Universe
2.) Through Jesus, he sustains them
3.) He reserves the right to alter, change or input further or more information into the system as he wills.
Provided he does not act on say, number 3....then what you are witnessing is commonly called "chance". But "chance" is not "Open Theism".
I agree with you 100% here.
Reformed/Calvinist cannot comprehend that what God knows in his foreknowledge is not necessarily determined.
Tell 'em that and they get all confused and mixed up. :laugh:
I agree with this also. God is always sovereign. When the Red Sea flowed normally, it was according to the natural laws God had put in place.
When God parted the Red Sea so that Israel could cross, this was God intervening to alter his own laws he had put in place.
If every time you flipped a coin, you flipped it EXACTLY the same, and all other conditions were EXACTLY the same, then you would get the EXACT result. But that is not what happens, we do not flip the coin with the same force or height, it does not land in the exact same spot and bounce exactly the same, and so we get different results. Now that is chance, because it is impossible for us to repeat a flip EXACTLY every time. Even machines cannot perfectly replicate themselves and need maintenance and repair.
That is the randomness or entropy that was introduced into the universe when man sinned.
Yeshua1 said:
What do you mean he GRANTS us what we ask? If God has already determined what will take place, then that is ALL that will happen.
So, you must believe God determines we will pray for what he has already determined would take place anyway?
So, does God also determine when we pray for those things that are not his will, like winning the lottery?
Making sure?? What? Does God need our prayers before he can do what he has already determined?
God did not CAUSE men to kill Jesus, God NEVER tempts any man to sin (Jam 1:13).
God did determine that Jesus would willingly allow himself to be taken and crucified for our sins. But even here, Jesus had a choice.
Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
This question demands a YES answer and shows that Jesus was not FORCED to allow himself to be taken and crucified, he did it of his own free will in obedience to his Father.
Oh, you mean those "original autographs" that no longer exist?
And God did not force them to write down exactly what he told them, they did it willingly out of obedience.
And I showed you that Jesus himself said that he could have prayed his Father and escaped in the garden.
Or are you calling Jesus a liar?
No, Jesus wiould NEVER refused the Cross, that was Him out of his Humanity speaking forth, under great pressure, knowing what was to come, but that would Never have happened!
The Cross was ordained, Jesus MUST die, the father decreed that was ONLY way sin could be atoned for!
God has NEVER changed His Mind!
He os sovereign , and has the Lord over all creation, wether He flips the coin Himself, or allows gravity to flip it, He is still having it heads or tails!
Might be how we are defining 'chance' as I see the Biblical God as One who does NOT have anything left to where either he does not control either directly/indirectly, the outcome, nor leaves it totally up to 'free will"...
Jesus and the father are ONE, so the Will of God is done in his life, so God the father determined jesus would die as messiah, Jesus also willingly accepted role, NO choice to say no, NOT in his Deity!