Yeast/Leaven: Ever good?

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Eliyahu:
"...Passover-eve was called Days of Unleavened Bread as well..."

Contradition! 'Passover-eve' is not Passover yet, like the eve of the twenty first century still was the twentieth century!

In fact, Passover-proper was Feast of Unlevened Breaded; so much so its first day was observed a sabbath, and "The Feast (day)".

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

If I am to be branded a legalist because I stand on the truth written in God's Holy Word that the christian is to abstain from alcoholic beverage, then so be it.

Doesn't matter what you see yourself for; only show where you find this said in God's Holy Word?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

EricB:
"...I do not see how you can make this insistence on "you cannot teach doctrine from a parable" when you are teaching doctrine from symbolism (leaven is used for sin). Parable; symbolism--its the same basic principle. One you have the symbolism woven into a whole story using symbolism, and the other case, you have the symbolism used as a single metaphor by itself. It's the same thing!
So it stands that the symbolism is not consistent, as it has symbolized both negative and positive things..."

Exactly! Like the 'metaphors' referred to!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

DHK:
"... It is not a book of science but it describes a scientific process--the process of fermentation..."

GE:
You take the parable of fermentation, and build the doctrine of tea-totalling on it.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

DHK is stepping outside the bounds of a moderator.
Moderators are to Moderate. They are not to Debate.

The function of a moderator is to insure that a post stays on topic.

DHK if you want to Debate please create a name to debate with and leave the DHK name to moderating.

Thank you.

I think you are overstepping to tell DHK what a moderator may do and what not. I like his input - it is challenging and sincere. That to me means quality; don't deny it us.

 

[EdSutton]

EricB:


Exactly! Like the 'metaphors' referred to!

And I couldn't even get one nibble :tear: at my metaphor, (or maybe that is a similie) that one good thing leaven does is "raise the dough." :smilewinkgrin: :tongue3: :laugh:

Ed

 

[Eliyahu]

Eliyahu:
"... I don't think Jesus ate leavened bread on that night. / There can be some questions about this because Jesus was killed on the eve of Passover, and when he was dead, it was approaching the Passover..."

GE:
An observant question indeed! Factually 100%

Indeed we need some more serious approach on this question, bringing all the verses and reasonings on the table.

In addition to the the verses that I mentioned,
I would think about this:

Luke 22:15
And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

I believe Jesus ate the Passover meal before His sufferings.

Now the question is the calculation of the dates, which is quite difficult to understand, without knowing the customs at that time.
I don't have any further evidence to support, but my reasoning is that
Jesus ate the Unleavened Bread before His sufferings, but the lamb was killed next day while He was hung on the tree.

Realistically we can hardly imagine that the leaven was removed just before the Passover as it takes sometime to do so, and we can reasonably believe that Yeast was removed one or two days earlier than Passover.
Also, please note that Messianic Jews believe Apostle John was Essene and Essene celebrated Days of ULB 2 days earlier.

 

[DHK]

DHK:
"... It is not a book of science but it describes a scientific process--the process of fermentation..."

GE:
You take the parable of fermentation, and build the doctrine of tea-totalling on it.

And so you can. You can build any doctrine you want on a parable. That is why parables don't teach doctrine. They simply illustrated the doctrine that is already firmly established in the Bible. What some posters are trying to eisigete from that parable is not truth previously taught in the Bible. Therefore it is wrong doctrine. They are trying to make the parable illustrate something that it wasn't intended to illustrate.
DHK

 

[Jerome]

Leaven or yeast is consistently used throughout the entire Bible to symbolize corruption, sin and false doctrine.
DHK

Please address Leviticus 23:17, where God requires a firstfruits offering of leavened loaves.

 

[DHK]

Please address Leviticus 23:17, where God requires a firstfruits offering of leavened loaves.

Leviticus 23:17 Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD.
Here is what Scofield says on the matter:

The wave-loaves were offered fifty days after the wave-sheaf. This is precisely the period between the resurrection of Christ and the formation of the church at Pentecost by the baptism of the Holy Spirit Ac 2:1-4; 1Co 12:12-13. See "Church" Mt 16:18; Heb 12:22-23. With the wave-sheaf no leaven was offered, for there was no evil in Christ; but the wave-loaves, typifying the church, are "baken with leaven," for in the church there is still evil.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Indeed we need some more serious approach on this question, bringing all the verses and reasonings on the table.

In addition to the the verses that I mentioned,
I would think about this:

Luke 22:15
And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

I believe Jesus ate the Passover meal before His sufferings.

Now the question is the calculation of the dates, which is quite difficult to understand, without knowing the customs at that time.
I don't have any further evidence to support, but my reasoning is that
Jesus ate the Unleavened Bread before His sufferings, but the lamb was killed next day while He was hung on the tree.

Realistically we can hardly imagine that the leaven was removed just before the Passover as it takes sometime to do so, and we can reasonably believe that Yeast was removed one or two days earlier than Passover.
Also, please note that Messianic Jews believe Apostle John was Essene and Essene celebrated Days of ULB 2 days earlier.

Jesus was crucified, "on the day that they always slaughtered the passover lamb" ... this very same day, is described as "the day of adzumos-unleavening / the removal of leaven" ... in three Gospels. John precisely says "it was the Preparation Day of Passover".
There is no difficulty; tradition has confused us, that's all.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Luke 22:15
And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

The verse implies unambiguously Jesus would NOT eat of that Passover. It is NOWHERE stated Jesus ate of the Passover, nor implied. In every instance of reference to the Passover Meal either a subjunctive or future with conditional meaning is used - thus alluding to a meal of preparation FOR the pending Feast/Eat Day of Passover.
Again, there is no difficulty to understand it, and it fully agrees with OT Passover chronolgy as well as typology. Things happened EXACTLY as prophesied and promised - yea, as covenanted by the Almighty.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Leviticus 23:17 Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD.
Here is what Scofield says on the matter:

Stretching the Word further than the widows olive oil could go - that is, too far for just good faith!

 

[Eric B]

Here is what Scofield says on the matter:
Quote:
The wave-loaves were offered fifty days after the wave-sheaf. This is precisely the period between the resurrection of Christ and the formation of the church at Pentecost by the baptism of the Holy Spirit Ac 2:1-4; 1Co 12:12-13. See "Church" Mt 16:18; Heb 12:22-23. With the wave-sheaf no leaven was offered, for there was no evil in Christ; but the wave-loaves, typifying the church, are "baken with leaven," for in the church there is still evil.

Since the rituals all point to Christ covering our sin (evil) and declaring us righteous; I wonder why that would be figured into the symbolism.

 

[Eliyahu]

Luke 22:15
And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

The verse implies unambiguously Jesus would NOT eat of that Passover. It is NOWHERE stated Jesus ate of the Passover, nor implied. In every instance of reference to the Passover Meal either a subjunctive or future with conditional meaning is used - thus alluding to a meal of preparation FOR the pending Feast/Eat Day of Passover.
Again, there is no difficulty to understand it, and it fully agrees with OT Passover chronolgy as well as typology. Things happened EXACTLY as prophesied and promised - yea, as covenanted by the Almighty.

Luke 22:
7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed

15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:


Questions:
1) Didn't the day of ULB come ? It came already !
2) Didn't Jesus eat Passover before He suffered ? He had supped !

1 Cor 11: 24-25
: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. 27


Leviticus 23:17 requires two loaves of Bread baken with leaven to brought to the LORD.
I believe it shows the sinners ( Jews and Gentiles) come to the LORD with the seven lambs without blemish which symbolize Jesus Christ, the sinless person.
Leaven itself meant the corruption and sinful nature, and they didn't go to the LORD alone but with lambs without blemish.


The above shows Unambiguously that Jesus ate the ULB and ULB was used for Lord Supper as all Yeast must have been removed once Days of ULB is to be observed.

The only question is how we can understand that Passover was yet to come

 

[DHK]

JESUS OBSERVED THE PASSOVER
Here is the order of the passover with the applicable Scriptures, as well as with Jewish custom and tradition incorporated:

[FONT=&quot]A. He washed the feet of the disciples (John 13:2-20). Details:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]. Jesus substituted in the place of the washing of hands, the symbolic act of the foot- washing, in order to teach a special lesson.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]a. Peter refused, but the Lord replied, If I wash you not, you have no part with me. Then, Peter answered, Lord wash not only my feet but my hands and head also. Christ answered, He who has bathed needs only to have his feet washed; he is clean all over.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1. a benediction.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2. cup of wine.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3. the hands of the company washed, the master of the feast passing the basin while reciting a prayer.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4. bitter herbs dipped in sauce and eaten.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5. the lamb brought in with other portions of the meal.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6. a benediction and second eating of bitter herbs.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7. a second cup of wine with questions and answers as to the origin of the feast.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8. singing of the first part of the Hallel (Psa. 113, 114)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]9. the master of the feast washes his hands and makes a sop by wrapping a bit of lamb with unleavened bread in bitter herbs and dipping it in the sauce, for each one present in turn.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10. each eats as much as he likes, finishing with a piece of lamb.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11. a third cup of wine after washing hands.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12. singing of the second part of the Hallel (Psa.115-118).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13. a fourth cup of wine.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]B. He gave the sop to Judas who then departed (John 13:26).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1. The bitter herbs were a symbol of the bitterness of bondage in Egypt.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2. By Oriental custom it was a special honor for the host to offer anyone a tid-bit and indicate that he was considered a favoured guest. Jesus showed kindness to Judas to the end, even in the hour of betrayal.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3. At that same moment Satan took complete possession of Judas.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4. Judas departs, and Jesus initiates His final discourses and warns the disciples against desertion, while they protest their loyalty to Him.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
Note: Would they have drunk so much wine if it had been fermented? I would say that more than one of them would have been a slight more than "tipsy" if this wine would have been fermented. It was not "wine", but grape juice.

Secondly, how could such a feast be observed with Jesus standing by as an observer? In fact it would have been rude for Jesus to do so. He partook with them, had fellowship with them. This was the last time that he would have been with them. He continued some time after this meal fellowshipping with them, instructing and waring them of what should be done and what should happen afterward. There was no leaven in this feast.

DHK

 

[Jerome]

I believe it shows the sinners ( Jews and Gentiles) come to the LORD with the seven lambs without blemish which symbolize Jesus Christ, the sinless person.

Lev. 23:18 And ye shall offer with the bread seven lambs without blemish of the first year, and one young bullock, and two rams:

There were also a bullock and two rams. Do they represent something?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Eliyahu:
"Luke 22:
7 Thencame the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed

15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:


Questions:
1) Didn't the day of ULB come ? It came already !
2) Didn't Jesus eat Passover before He suffered ? He had supped !"

GE:
I have answered these arguments; but to repeat:

The word "bread" is not in the original, nor is the idea of "bread" anyhow suggested. "The day of unleaven had come", is more correct. This verse itself delineates the day : the day the passover MUST be killed -- according to the Law. That Law you will find in Lv23 et al: It was Nisan 14, and in Ex12f it is instructed to have leaven taken away, on Nisan 14.

Verse 15 says Jesus very much wanted to eat that specific Passover with His disciples, thus implying He would NOT eat it together with them. Reason? very simple: He would be crucified that day -- when the Passover lamb was supposed to be slaughtered --- then would be dead, when the lamb would be eaten --- after sunset between 14 and 15 Nisan; in other words, on Nisan 15.

But here is the important thing about Jesus' statement: That He -- on the right time -

back soon

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

That He would that Passover by doing the will of His Father -- My food is to do the will of My Father ... Jesus' suffering would His eating of that Passover; His being killed God's Passover Lamb would provide the lamb for the table of that holy and solemn feast.

No possibility the meal of the night before could have been the Passover's meal -- especially not that Passover's meal!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

JESUS OBSERVED THE PASSOVER
Here is the order of the passover with the applicable Scriptures, as well as with Jewish custom and tradition incorporated:

[FONT=&quot]A. He washed the feet of the disciples (John 13:2-20). Details:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]. Jesus substituted in the place of the washing of hands, the symbolic act of the foot- washing, in order to teach a special lesson.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]a. Peter refused, but the Lord replied, If I wash you not, you have no part with me. Then, Peter answered, Lord wash not only my feet but my hands and head also. Christ answered, He who has bathed needs only to have his feet washed; he is clean all over.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1. a benediction.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2. cup of wine.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3. the hands of the company washed, the master of the feast passing the basin while reciting a prayer.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4. bitter herbs dipped in sauce and eaten.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5. the lamb brought in with other portions of the meal.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6. a benediction and second eating of bitter herbs.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7. a second cup of wine with questions and answers as to the origin of the feast.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8. singing of the first part of the Hallel (Psa. 113, 114)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]9. the master of the feast washes his hands and makes a sop by wrapping a bit of lamb with unleavened bread in bitter herbs and dipping it in the sauce, for each one present in turn.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10. each eats as much as he likes, finishing with a piece of lamb.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11. a third cup of wine after washing hands.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12. singing of the second part of the Hallel (Psa.115-118).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13. a fourth cup of wine.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]B. He gave the sop to Judas who then departed (John 13:26).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1. The bitter herbs were a symbol of the bitterness of bondage in Egypt.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2. By Oriental custom it was a special honor for the host to offer anyone a tid-bit and indicate that he was considered a favoured guest. Jesus showed kindness to Judas to the end, even in the hour of betrayal.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3. At that same moment Satan took complete possession of Judas.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4. Judas departs, and Jesus initiates His final discourses and warns the disciples against desertion, while they protest their loyalty to Him.[/FONT]

Note: Would they have drunk so much wine if it had been fermented? I would say that more than one of them would have been a slight more than "tipsy" if this wine would have been fermented. It was not "wine", but grape juice.

Secondly, how could such a feast be observed with Jesus standing by as an observer? In fact it would have been rude for Jesus to do so. He partook with them, had fellowship with them. This was the last time that he would have been with them. He continued some time after this meal fellowshipping with them, instructing and waring them of what should be done and what should happen afterward. There was no leaven in this feast.

DHK

GE:
Wine was drunk only once -- see my explanation in 'The Lord's Day in the Covenant of Grace' - volume 1, http://www.biblestudents.co.za