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Yellin' stompin' snortin' preacher boys!
- Thread starter Gina B
- Start date
BornBaptist
<img src =/9147.jpg>
Originally posted by Gina L:
BTW, I see you're new here. Hello and Welcome to the BB BornBaptist.Should have said that FIRST!
Gina
I once knew a man like the one BornBaptist is talking about. I had known him before he came to our church. He was a preacher and a trouble maker. He broke up every church he ever pastored or was a member of. He was actually physically thrown out of a church in Florida. When he came back to Tennessee he was looking for another church and Satan lead him straight to ours because we were doig so well. We were in the middle of building a new santuary and he pitched in an sort of took over the building project.
(I must inject here that I warned our pastor about him from the beginning because I knew wherever he was there was trouble. Our pastor thought he was a better judge of character than I and readily accepted this man and his family into the church.)
After the new sanctuary was finished, this guy did a 180% about face. He and his wife and three other members said they found an error in the Pastor's teaching that was against the by-laws of the church and that the church must get rid of the Pastor. I cannot remember what he claimed was the Pastor's transgression now, but when we didn't get rid of the Pastor, these five people brought a law suit to have the Pastor and all other members thrown out of the church. They actually planned to take the building from us. Through mediation they finally agreed to drop the lawsuit and have a council of 10 Baptist Ministers (each side got to choose five) hear the dispute and decide the case.
After everyone had their say and the Ministers deliberated for about 30 to 45 minutes, they stated that they couldn't find anything the Pastor had done that went again the By-Laws of the church and the five had no justification to throw anyone out of the church. The five immediately got up and left the church. One of those was an elderly lady who had been in the church for many many years. They went about four miles away and built a church of their own. Later I heard that the preacher eventually got thrown out of that one also. lol
Our Pastor said many times afterward that he wished he had listened to me before things got so out of hand.
(I must inject here that I warned our pastor about him from the beginning because I knew wherever he was there was trouble. Our pastor thought he was a better judge of character than I and readily accepted this man and his family into the church.)
After the new sanctuary was finished, this guy did a 180% about face. He and his wife and three other members said they found an error in the Pastor's teaching that was against the by-laws of the church and that the church must get rid of the Pastor. I cannot remember what he claimed was the Pastor's transgression now, but when we didn't get rid of the Pastor, these five people brought a law suit to have the Pastor and all other members thrown out of the church. They actually planned to take the building from us. Through mediation they finally agreed to drop the lawsuit and have a council of 10 Baptist Ministers (each side got to choose five) hear the dispute and decide the case.
After everyone had their say and the Ministers deliberated for about 30 to 45 minutes, they stated that they couldn't find anything the Pastor had done that went again the By-Laws of the church and the five had no justification to throw anyone out of the church. The five immediately got up and left the church. One of those was an elderly lady who had been in the church for many many years. They went about four miles away and built a church of their own. Later I heard that the preacher eventually got thrown out of that one also. lol
Our Pastor said many times afterward that he wished he had listened to me before things got so out of hand.
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Well,
When a so called "preacher" thinks he has to act like an idiot to proclaim God's word, they are not worthy of much respect or my listening to them. I have sat under pastors like that, and they truly are funny. Thus, the snickering. In my opinion, they are not following the call of God. They are feeding their overgrown egos and trying to entertain their congregation. If only we could have more what you would call "dead" preaching such as what Jonathon Edwards did. He reportedly had very little charisma. If you will remember, neither did Moses or the Apostle Paul. They were led by the power of God through the proclomation of the word of God. They didn't have to jump around, spit, yell, and act like idiots in order for God to use them.
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Diane,
I think you would have a hard time convincing me that Jonathon Edwards did not preach about hell. I think I would respond by saying that Calvinists like myself like to focus on the Word of God, whereas free-willers such as yourself, like to focus on the emotion of the message regardless of the substance of the message. I would also argue that this is the reason most Free-willers (kind of like charismatics) tend to have such bad theology because the Word of God is not the main focus of their attention. It is upon whatever makes them feel good, or excites them, or gets them all worked up in a frenzy, or manipulates their emotions to scare them into heaven. It is strong on psychology and worldly wisdom, but weak on sound doctrine, much like the yelling stomping, spitting, acting like an idiot preaching that Gina describes.
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
I had a person do that in a Church I was pastoring years ago. I stopped told him, "if you get up and leave, don't bother coming back, because I don't need your kind in my Church." needless to say, he sat down and never got up and walked out on my sermons again. Neither did anyone else. Walking out on a Pastor while he's preaching is just downright disrespectful. </font>[/QUOTE]If he were preaching, I would agree with you. These guys were simply acting like idiots to feed their oversized egos. If you had told me that, I would have kept walking. You are not that important to me or anyone else.
Joseph Botwinick
USN2Pulpit
New Member
Joseph_Botwinik, where is the dividing line? Can a preacher show emotion, or must the style of his speech be without emotion? This is a serious question here, because there are many passages of scripture that are exciting to read, speak about, and preach about. My own personal belief is that the Word of God moves you, and we shouldn't be afraid of letting people see it - and there's no excuse for delivering the Word of God in a benign and uninteresting manner. A called man will have this gift/ability to deliver the Word of God (not of himself).
I, like you, don't think preachers ought to be "losing it" up there on the platform, but I don't think the Message of God is devoid of emotion either.
I, like you, don't think preachers ought to be "losing it" up there on the platform, but I don't think the Message of God is devoid of emotion either.
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
How would you define this idea of "moving" you? Would it be an emotional experience or a spiritual conviction through the preaching of God's Word? Where would you draw the line between being led by the Spirit and being drawn into Charasmatic emotionalism that is devoid of sound Doctrine. My experience with some preachers is that the more emotional they get, the less Biblical they get because they are appealing to their emotions more than they are focusing on the Word of God.
- and there's no excuse for delivering the Word of God in a benign and uninteresting manner. A called man will have this gift/ability to deliver the Word of God (not of himself).
I, like you, don't think preachers ought to be "losing it" up there on the platform, but I don't think the Message of God is devoid of emotion either. [/QUOTE]
The Word of God is not benign and uninteresting to anyone who is being led by the spirit. I think you incorrectly surmise that it is up to the preacher to make the Word of God interesting and relevant. That is the error I think many preachers make today. The Word of God is folly to those who are perishing. Again, please read Jonathon Edwards sermon "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God". I must admit, when I first read that sermon as a reading assignment in Jr. High at my public school I attended, I admit that I had visions of a preacher stomping, yelling, spitting, the whole nine yards. It turns out that he wasn't very charasmatic and interesting at all. He would have been by today's standards, a very boring preacher. But, God used him to lead part of the Great Awakening. Take a look at what Paul says about himself in his letter to the Church of Corinth. He says that he did not preach with eloquence or with wise, persuasive words, so that their salvation would not rest upon the wisdom of man, but upon the power of God through the preaching of his Word. God did not call Moses to do his work because of his great oratory skills. It seems to me that most men who were called by God were rather boring people who tended to focus their message upon the Word of God rather than bringing the attention upon themselves by acting like fools.
Joseph Botwinick
Bethelassoc
Member
JB:
I think Jonathan Edwards is a good example of how effective preaching can be without the entertainment. Interestingly enough, he preached along with Wesley and Whitefield who were not quiet, sermon reading preachers, and I don't believe they entertained, either. I do believe that that time period is a good example of how effective these men were because of their obedience to preach and not because of a gimmick.
I think Jonathan Edwards is a good example of how effective preaching can be without the entertainment. Interestingly enough, he preached along with Wesley and Whitefield who were not quiet, sermon reading preachers, and I don't believe they entertained, either. I do believe that that time period is a good example of how effective these men were because of their obedience to preach and not because of a gimmick.
USN2Pulpit
New Member
J_B, forgive me for not being able to articulate my thoughts. Please take my position to be (mostly) in agreement with you.
I ask myself in thinking about this, "Why did Jesus weep?...and cry out?...and throw the money changers out of the temple? Was it to prove a point?...and was there any emotion involved?
You're speaking of emotion as if it has no place in the life and oratory of a preacher. I think you are mistaken in that position. Please know that I agree with you that emotion should not overtake the Message of the Lord, but if the Lord Himself didn't hide His emotions (after all, He was a man as well), why should I?
I appreciate your critique of my position, but try to take into account how I arrive there. You believe my position is that the preacher needs to "make" the Word interesting, therefore he should add dramatic flair to his preaching. Nothing (well, maybe a few things) could be further from the truth. What I believe is that the Word of God is powerful, and has an effect on me. It brings forth a response from me, both emotional and spiritual, and my congregation can tell. Not because I want it to be all about me, but because the Word changes people...including the preacher, and I never want to be ashamed of God's work in my life.
Excluding those preachers that hop around the platform yelling, stomping and pounding for the entire sermon, I believe what we're talking about here is a difference of technique - with both being effective in their particular settings.
I ask myself in thinking about this, "Why did Jesus weep?...and cry out?...and throw the money changers out of the temple? Was it to prove a point?...and was there any emotion involved?
You're speaking of emotion as if it has no place in the life and oratory of a preacher. I think you are mistaken in that position. Please know that I agree with you that emotion should not overtake the Message of the Lord, but if the Lord Himself didn't hide His emotions (after all, He was a man as well), why should I?
I appreciate your critique of my position, but try to take into account how I arrive there. You believe my position is that the preacher needs to "make" the Word interesting, therefore he should add dramatic flair to his preaching. Nothing (well, maybe a few things) could be further from the truth. What I believe is that the Word of God is powerful, and has an effect on me. It brings forth a response from me, both emotional and spiritual, and my congregation can tell. Not because I want it to be all about me, but because the Word changes people...including the preacher, and I never want to be ashamed of God's work in my life.
Excluding those preachers that hop around the platform yelling, stomping and pounding for the entire sermon, I believe what we're talking about here is a difference of technique - with both being effective in their particular settings.
I think USN2Pulpit you state the balance. I know very few (I can count them on one hand) preachers who preach with no emotion but in a monotone voice. Most do an excellent job and that is their style. Most preachers (such as myself) cannot preach that way. The excitement of the Scripture and the subject you are proclaiming just pours out in your speech. There however is a small handfull of preachers who use the Bible as window dressing for a jumping screaming rant. That is also usually a good indication they didn't study much but use theatrics to cover it up. If you can't remember the preacher's opening text, you can be assured you have listen to a rant rather than a preaching of the Word of God.
Blazin4Christ
New Member
I like it in one way because that is my style (weird since i'm 15, Indian, and just starting to preach) and I preach liek that, reason why I say it is because I have so much on my heart i'm letting out for the people listening to me presenting God's Word, the only time I think its out of hand is when the preacher starts jumping, doing gymnastics, running, or spitting like a fire hose
Dr. T.T. Shields of Jarvis St Baptist, Toronto was an orator, a master of the English language. I loved to hear him preach. No one doubted the conviction behind his preaching.
Harvey Springer, wore cowboy suits and used gymnastics in the pulpit. Not my cup of tea, but I shall never forget his sermon on Jonah. He leaped from behind the pulpit, landed on the floor in front and spoke with conviction on how Jonah responded to the call of God. No one doubted the absolute conviction with which Springer preached.
Then, there was a rather quiet man with a common voice at the Avenue Road Alliance Church. He entered the pulpit in a wrinkled suit, read the word and preached. No one doubts the absolute conviction behind this man's preaching. It was Dr. Tozer..Oh what a giant in the Spirit. I shall never forget hearing Tozer preach the word.
Then there was the actor who read the 23rd Psalm with great elequence, and everyone listened. The actor then said, "My friends, I have reached your eyes and ears, but the minister has reached your hearts. The difference is this; I know the 23rd Psalm, but he knows the Shepherd."
Isn't this what preaching is all about? If we try to copy others, we repeat their mistakes. It is always best that we be ourselves, and always be the best that we can be. It is God's word.
Cheers,
Jim
Harvey Springer, wore cowboy suits and used gymnastics in the pulpit. Not my cup of tea, but I shall never forget his sermon on Jonah. He leaped from behind the pulpit, landed on the floor in front and spoke with conviction on how Jonah responded to the call of God. No one doubted the absolute conviction with which Springer preached.
Then, there was a rather quiet man with a common voice at the Avenue Road Alliance Church. He entered the pulpit in a wrinkled suit, read the word and preached. No one doubts the absolute conviction behind this man's preaching. It was Dr. Tozer..Oh what a giant in the Spirit. I shall never forget hearing Tozer preach the word.
Then there was the actor who read the 23rd Psalm with great elequence, and everyone listened. The actor then said, "My friends, I have reached your eyes and ears, but the minister has reached your hearts. The difference is this; I know the 23rd Psalm, but he knows the Shepherd."
Isn't this what preaching is all about? If we try to copy others, we repeat their mistakes. It is always best that we be ourselves, and always be the best that we can be. It is God's word.
Cheers,
Jim
USN2Pulpit
New Member
Well said, Jim.
D
dianetavegia
Guest
EXCELLENT thoughts Jim! Excellent!
Diane
Diane
BornBaptist
<img src =/9147.jpg>
I had a person do that in a Church I was pastoring years ago. I stopped told him, "if you get up and leave, don't bother coming back, because I don't need your kind in my Church." needless to say, he sat down and never got up and walked out on my sermons again. Neither did anyone else. Walking out on a Pastor while he's preaching is just downright disrespectful.
</font>[/QUOTE]If he were preaching, I would agree with you. These guys were simply acting like idiots to feed their oversized egos. If you had told me that, I would have kept walking. You are not that important to me or anyone else.
Joseph Botwinick </font>[/QUOTE]Such a nice Christ-like attitude. Ever heard of respect?
This thread has really grown like a big dog. Knowing the wisdom of it's humble author and based on the thread's title, I know that we are only speaking of extreme cases here. I hope that none of us are too snooty, arrogant or high-brow to receive a message that God might send us via a shouting preacher.
Roy
Roy
Trotter
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Hey, shouting is fine. But only as long as there is a message being proclaimed through that shouting.
If all you get is a bunch of opinion interspersed with "Praise Gawd!" and "Can I get an amen?!" and (while reaching over his shoulder and patting himself) "That's mighty fine preachin', brother, why don't you just preach on?"
If all I'm going to get is opinion, I might as well stay home and listen to my own.
In Christ,
Trotter
If all you get is a bunch of opinion interspersed with "Praise Gawd!" and "Can I get an amen?!" and (while reaching over his shoulder and patting himself) "That's mighty fine preachin', brother, why don't you just preach on?"
If all I'm going to get is opinion, I might as well stay home and listen to my own.
In Christ,
Trotter