Jesus in the Garden, night before His crucifiction.
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You can be a Christian and deny essential doctrine
- Thread starter evangelist6589
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There is a Cup/Bowl of wrath that God has piled up towards wicked sinners/sins/nations, correct?
That God will punish those who have not Jesus as their Messiah. correct?
Jesus is our direct substitution in our stead, so whatever the lost sinner experiences from God, he would have also, correct?
Do you see how each statement goes from one premise to another based on your theory and not Scripture?
You correctly determine that Jesus experienced the punishment or consequences that sinful humanity deserved. But from there you make the conclusion that this was God's wrath piled up towards individual sinners (I take it the elect), that Jesus was a direct to take punishment instead of these elect for their sinful actions, etc.
You are working off of an unbiblical base.
Scripture?
Isn't this mentioned toward the end of the gospels?
A concordance would be handy in finding the relevant scriptures.
Check out Revelation. Bowls of wrath for the wicked.
Wrath for unfaithful Israel in Ezekiel.
(John) Jesus: believe or remain condemned. (Some are quickened to believe; most are not).
Jesus died in my place. The wrath (justice) of God is satisfied.
Katarina Von Bora
Active Member
It's quite amazing that scripture takes a back seat to anyone's proclaimed faith.
I always encourage those new to the faith to read the gospel of John first.
Jesus says a prayer to God the Father. Chapter 17.
John 17English Standard Version (ESV)
The High Priestly Prayer
17 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said,Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 And this is “eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.
20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. 26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”
You never use a concordance? Your memory of scripture must be vast. Apparently, you have never seen how much scripture takes the front seat in my posts to the Calvinism / Arminianism debate Forum.
BTW, if you were a Calvinist, and really understood particular redemption, you'd realize the "atonement of Jesus" is not universal, contrary to your quote by Shai Linne.
Katarina Von Bora
Active Member
I do have a good command of scripture, though I would not call it "vast". One cannot discuss Gethsemane without including the prayer of Jesus.
It's basic to the gospel.
Now as to Shai Linne. Shai is a reformed believer as am I. I believe you are misreading his statement.
If the election of the Father is not universal and the regeneration of the Holy Spirit is not universal why is the atonement of Jesus universal?
The election of the Father is NOT universal.
Regeneration of the Holy Spirit is NOT universal.
WHY is the atonement universal? The answer is: It's not universal.
You completely missed the point. If the atonement covered all universally, then the other statements are inconsistent with themselves.
Please quote me stating that I never use a concordance!
If you are looking for conflict, I can do that. But the Bible establishes the way believers are to speak to each other.
1 Corinthians 3:3King James Version (KJV)
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
Ephesians 4:29King James Version (KJV)
29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
James 1:26King James Version (KJV)
26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
Colossians 4:5-6English Standard Version (ESV)
5 Walk in wisdom toward outsiders, making the best use of the time. 6 Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person.
Yes! It's all scripture.
I don't enjoy the rap mileu but this explains things very well.
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Katarina Von Bora
Active Member
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Katarina Von Bora
Active Member
Absolutely!
Jeremiah 25:15-38/Luke 22:42
God punishment and judgement is of an individual nature, correct? Great White thrown
The wrath of God is active and not passive towards rendering judgement upon sin.
Yes. God's punishment against sin is His punishment against the sinner (which is why one person cannot suffer the punishment for another's sins). But divine justice looks to the person and not the sinful act itself (if a nation turns to God then He will heal that nation; if Israel repents God will put her under His wings; if a man repents and turns to God then He is faithful to forgive).
Mankind was under a curse, for the wages of sin is death. Men will die physically and they will die spiritually (the "sinful man" will die). But through Christ we will live.
Jesus did, but not because someone had to pay God your obligated sin debt for your individual sinful acts. Scripture has a term that you may not be familiar with yet. It's called "forgiveness". There are some (like me) who believe that we have, at the present time, a mediator in Christ Jesus who intercedes with the Father on our behalf.
It is just that Jesus suffer for you. It is not just that God punish Jesus with the punishment for your individual sinful acts to satisfy the demands of justice.
Scripture?
Jesus can be my mediator due to the fact that paid for me on the Cross, by tasting and experiencing what God had towards me while a lost sinner. Gods wrath and judgement is also part of His forgiveness.
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