You can be saved without the Gospel???

[MB]

Where? Show one single post that claims this.

If someone does not hear the Gospel and dies without it, they obviously are not among the elect.

You Always Claim to know everything. Explain how you know this.
MB

 

[Marooncat79]

Acts 4:12

 

[Reformed1689]

You Always Claim to know everything. Explain how you know this.
MB

First it is false to say I claim to know everything. Are you saying there is a way to be saved without knowing Christ?

 

[Alan Gross]

Acts 4:12

Very nice.


"Neither is there salvation in any other:
for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

 

[MB]

First it is false to say I claim to know everything. Are you saying there is a way to be saved without knowing Christ?

No Thankyou There is no such thing as Salvation with out hearing the gospel. Simply because that would mean no faith. With out the gospel there is no knowledge of Christ and no faith in Him. This is why Calvinist are wrong when they claim that election means even if they don't believe they will be saved because of there election.
MB

 

[Reformed1689]

This is why Calvinist are wrong when they claim that election means even if they don't believe they will be saved because of there election.

What Calvinist teaches this?

 

[Dave G]

This is why Calvinist are wrong when they claim that election means even if they don't believe they will be saved because of there election.

What Calvinist teaches this?

I think MB is confusing God saving individuals from the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ), and then in their lifetimes, confronting them with the Gospel.

I happen to believe that God saves people according to His will and purposes...but He will always use the preaching of His word to notify them of their salvation ( 1 Corinthians 1:21 ).
Therefore, the Gospel is never absent from a person believing on Christ.

A person cannot be saved outside of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, outside of faith, and outside of trusting in Christ's finished work on the cross for them.

 

[agedman]

If the same quality of 'Belief' and 'Faith' are attributed to 'Being Saved', as The 'Belief' and 'Faith' of a 2 or 3-year-old, in 'Believing' and 'having Faith' in Santa Claus, is what you're talking about, yeah.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ, nor The Eternal Word of God, Nor The Holy Spirit, are needed to 'Believe' and 'have Faith', in Santa Claus.

In fact, an individual would not even have the need to be Convicted of their personal sin, before Almighty God.

So, 'Believing' and 'having Faith', in that way, specifically, just like a child 'Believing' in Santa Claus, or 'having Faith' that Santa Claus would come and bring their little flesh a toy, happens ALL THE TIME, in Christian religious circles and associations.

Those individuals are not the ones to point to, as Authorities in The Things of God, or 'Salvation', by ANY MEANS.

They haven't dealt with their guilt or sin debt before An Angry God.

They are just 'Believers', without God, or Jesus, or The Holy Spirit, and that's why they don't talk about sin, Righteousness, and Judgment that The Holy Spirit Has Come to Convict lost souls of.

Santa Claus does exactly as much good for them as their brand of carnal 'Belief', and 'Faith'.

Thus, no, they have no use for The Gospel of Jesus Christ and could care less, although that is an Eternally Fatal position for their soul to be in, regardless of their (false) profession of 'Faith'..

WHEN THERE IS NO:

Spirit-Enabled Conviction of the lost soul by The Holy Spirit Bearing Witness to The Truths regarding God's Revelation of personal sin against their Creator, to the specific unbeliever,

they will read Scriptures like these, below, and say, "poo-poo on them".

"Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures."
James 1:18.

"having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,"
I Peter 1:23.

1 "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel
which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2. "By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3. "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4. "And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"
I Corinthians 15:1-4.

There is nothing in the Scriptures you offered in which I disagree, nor do they refute what I posted.

Faith came to Abraham, Noah, job, Moses, ... in the EXACT same way it comes to all believers of all time.

It is by HEARING the word of God in which He has enabled the hearing. (Romans)

The Holy Spirit is given to convict of sin, righteousness, and judgment. (John)

No one comes to God without the Father’s direct interaction through the Son. (John)

Do you not know what the Redeemer said!

“Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 17“Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.”
​

By the strength of your own words you lay burdens that belong to the work of the Holy Spirit, restrict the Word to the divine oracles written and subject to humankind, and actually would stand in judgment by trying to apply Scriptures inappropriately to that which would stand against Paul’s own words.

 

[Reformed]

I think MB is confusing God saving individuals from the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ), and then in their lifetimes, confronting them with the Gospel.

Forgive me if it seems like I am quibbling with words but God chose* certain individuals for salvation before the foundation of the world. Salvation takes place in-time. Before an elect person is saved they are as Paul described his pre-saved spiritual condition. Ephesians 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. So, even though a person may be chosen by God for salvation, before they are actually saved they are a child of wrath.

*The words elect(ed) and predestine(d) are synonymous with God's choice.

 

[Alan Gross]

There is nothing in the Scriptures you offered in which I disagree, nor do they refute what I posted.

Faith came to Abraham, Noah, job, Moses, ... in the EXACT same way it comes to all believers of all time.

It is by HEARING the word of God in which He has enabled the hearing. (Romans)

The Holy Spirit is given to convict of sin, righteousness, and judgment. (John)

No one comes to God without the Father’s direct interaction through the Son. (John)

Yeah,

this?

"The original post from another thread,
in which one line was extracted
and in context
does not resent a problem,
yet out of context does,
does not dispute either of these posts."

OK.

 

[Dave G]

Forgive me if it seems like I am quibbling with words but God chose* certain individuals for salvation before the foundation of the world. Salvation takes place in-time.

Perhaps quibbling with words may be what it is, perhaps not.
I don't see us quibbling much.
But as I see it, salvation, the decision to save someone, is a "done deal" from eternity past.

I look at it as already having happened, as well as "going to happen".
God's decision to save someone cannot fail to come to pass.

Before an elect person is saved they are as Paul described his pre-saved spiritual condition. Ephesians 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

I see this as the elect being in a saved-but-unregenerate condition.
They are set aside, and are vessels of mercy afore prepared unto glory ( Romans 9:22-24 ).

Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

To me, God's children were, by nature, the children of wrath...but they were never the actual children of wrath.

They were always His children and never in any danger of His wrath.
They were always vessels of mercy, as opposed to vessels of wrath.

So, even though a person may be chosen by God for salvation, before they are actually saved they are a child of wrath.

Again, they were not children of wrath.
They were always His children, and He was never willing that any of them should perish, but that they all should come to repentance ( 2 Peter 3:8-10 ).

 

[agedman]

Yeah,

this?

"The original post from another thread,
in which one line was extracted
and in context
does not resent a problem,
yet out of context does,
does not dispute either of these posts."

OK.

Yep, like I posted (except I did leave the “p” off one word.

Btw, I did edit the last post.

But again, nothing you have presented in the Scriptures disagree with what I have posted.

 

[Alan Gross]

Perhaps quibbling with words may be what it is, maybe not.
But as I see it, salvation, the decision to save someone, is a "done deal" from eternity past.

I look at it as already having happened, as well as "going to happen".


I see this as the believer being in a saved-but-unregenerate condition.
They are elect, and are vessels of mercy afore prepared unto glory ( Romans 9:22-24 )

To me, God's children were, by nature, the children of wrath...but they were never the actual children of wrath.

They were always His children and never in any danger of His wrath.

Again, they were not children of wrath.
They were always His children, and He was never willing that any of them should perish, but that they all should come to repentance ( 2 Peter 3:8-10 ).

Born.

Adopted.

Quicken.

All children of Adam have Eternal Punishment to their credit.

That credit of Unrighteousness Must Be Redeemed, Re-Judged.

It is Re-Judged, in Time, at the Moment of Salvation, when the soul is Created New, in Regeneration.

The Righteousness of Jesus Christ is then Imputed to their soul that wasn't there before, to Justify them.

Mercy and Justice Kissed.

Then, an Elect, Chosen soul, that is Born Again, and Adopted into The Family of God, by A Quickening of their soul, by The Holy Spirit, from the dead.

 

[agedman]

Born.

Adopted.

Quicken.

All children of Adam have Eternal Punishment to their credit.

That credit of Unrighteousness Must Be Redeemed, Re-Judged.

It is Re-Judged, in Time, at the Moment of Salvation, when the soul is Created New, in Regeneration.

The Righteousness of Jesus Christ is then Imputed to their soul that wasn't there before, to Justify them.

Mercy and Justice Kissed.

Then, an Elect, Chosen soul, that is Born Again, and Adopted into The Family of God, by A Quickening of their soul, by The Holy Spirit, from the dead.

And this post disputes what I have consistently posted on the BB?

You posted Scriptures in agreement with my posts, which I appreciate, but then you would attempt to imply I am not consistent with the veracity of The Word?

 

[Dave G]

All children of Adam have Eternal Punishment to their credit.

Agreed.

That credit of Unrighteousness Must Be Redeemed, Re-Judged.

Redemption took place at the cross ( Romans 5:10 ).

Judgment took place at the cross on our behalf.
Our sins were laid on Christ.

It is Re-Judged, in Time, at the Moment of Salvation, when the soul is Created New, in Regeneration.

To me, that is not the "moment of salvation".
The moment of salvation is when God decided to save His people from their sins...we were chosen "in Him" from the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ).

The Righteousness of Jesus Christ is then Imputed to their soul that wasn't there before, to Justify them.

The righteousness of Christ was imputed to them at the cross...not at the moment of belief.
We were justified by the blood ( Romans 5:9 ).

That is what makes "Limited Atonement" ( Particular Redemption ), "limited"...because it all happened at the cross and for a specific people.
It did not happen "potentially" and for all people.

The blood was "applied" at the cross, and for His people.
It is a direct corollary of when Moses sprinkled the people with the blood of the first covenant...they were sanctified in the sight of God under the covenant of Law, just as God's spiritual people were sanctified by the blood of His Son at the cross.

Please correct me with Scripture if you think my opinion wrong.

 

[Alan Gross]

This was the ORIGINAL POST from which you took issue.


Do you not see the bold and underlined "...doers of the law will be justified..."

By pulling a single line from the post, you are not presenting the thinking behind what was stated.

The thinking is applied to those who may not know specific names for God, who may not know the full story concerning the death, burial, and resurrection, but they DO know they are sinners. They Do know that there must be redemption, and therefore they are "doers of the law" by the very reason that the law is written in their heart.

The Scriptures state that the purpose of the law was as a teacher pointing towards Christ.

If, by having the law written on the heart, one lives accordingly, THE SCRIPTURES state that person is justified.

One justified is saved.

What the posts focused upon is that it doesn't take someone teaching the law to bring awareness of sin and the need of a redeemer, for EVERYONE already has the written standards of God on their heart.

Here are some examples:
Moses knew it was wrong to kill or he wouldn't have hidden the body. The law was already written on the heart long time prior to it being presented in written form from Sinai.

Did Moses know the gospel according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, John? Did he know of the cross?

Yet, was not Moses redeemed?

How about Noah, Job, Seth?

Does not the Scriptures state, "FAITH comes by HEARING, and hearing by the WORD of God?

If God's word is written already on the heart, and one responds to that in an appropriate fashion yet not know all the facts of names, dates, places given in the accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, but responds according to Romans 2:13 that person is justified - saved.

Now, I don't know why this would alarm anyone on the BB. It isn't heretical, nor is it out of step with the Baptist "tradition" and teaching.

In Romans 2:13:

Those that outwardly demonstart that they Have Been Saved, by doing The Law, and appear to people as Having Been Saved,

... then, they are individuals who were Justified when they were Saved, and when they are doing the Law, it is an Indication that they Had Been Saved.

The Law is an Administrator of Death and no lost soul has ever done anything as a 'doer', with regard to God's Law, other than BREAK IT.

NOTHING about being 'Justified', Spiritually, by God Judging a soul, "Justified", has any relationship to anyone doing something.

...

The Law Written on hearts has no relationship to a 'doer', of some outward exercise of The Law they perform, concerning whether they Are Going to Be Justified.

Only, AFTER a soul is Saved, they will demonstrate some more degree of compliance to The Law, outwardly.

Who doesn't?

Those not Saved, and Not Justified, Spiritually by The New Birth,.... because....?

... because, it is not in them.

Even though, they have 'heard' some things, they don't follow through at look like it, in their, "doer-ing", because they don't have a Regenerated, Born Again, soul.

 

[Alan Gross]

Agreed.

Redemption took place at the cross ( Romans 5:10 ).

Judgment took place at the cross on our behalf.
Our sins were laid on Christ.

To me, that is not the "moment of salvation".
The moment of salvation is when God decided to save His people from their sins...we were chosen "in Him" from the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ).

The righteousness of Christ was imputed to them at the cross...not at the moment of belief.
We were justified by the blood ( Romans 5:9 ).

That is what makes "Limited Atonement" ( Particular Redemption ), "limited"...because it all happened at the cross and for a specific people.
It did not happen "potentially" and for all people.

The blood was "applied" at the cross, and for His people.
It is a direct corollary of when Moses sprinkled the people with the blood of the first covenant...they were sanctified in the sight of God under the covenant of Law, just as God's spiritual people were sanctified by the blood of His Son at the cross.

Please correct me with Scripture if you think my opinion wrong.

"Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

"unto"

...

Nothing Happened 'potentially', at The Cross.

Right.

...

 

[Dave G]

"Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

"unto"

...

Nothing Happened 'potentially', at The Cross.

Right.

I'll work on it some more, Alan.

It'll take a bit of fine tuning.
Thanks for pointing out some things.

 

[PB Brother Tony]

Where do we have any support in Scripture for this? We don't. Is this not heresy?

Where do we have any support in Scripture for this? We don't. Is this not heresy?

No because:

Gospel Is Not Involved In Regeneration


The Condition of Man precludes it:


a) The gospel cannot help those who are dead (Gen 2:17; Eph 2:1-3; Col 2:13).


b) The gospel cannot help those who cannot see it (John 3:3; II Cor 4:3-4).


c) The gospel cannot help those who cannot hear it (John 8:43,47; Acts 7:57).


d) The gospel cannot help those who cannot understand it (John 8:43; II Tim 2:25).


e) The gospel cannot help those who will not understand it (Rom 3:11; II Pet 3:5).


f) The gospel cannot help those who will not seek God (Ps 14:2-3; Rom 3:11).


g) The gospel cannot help those who cannot please God (Rom 8:8; 3:12; Is 64:6).


h) The gospel cannot help those who cannot be subject to it (Rom 8:7; Jer 13:23).


i) The gospel cannot help even if one preached from the dead (Luke 16:31).


j) The gospel cannot help those who are beyond any reformation (Isa 26:10).


k) The gospel cannot help those beyond the Spirit’s influence (1 Cor 2:14).


l) The gospel cannot help those at war with the Spirit (Gal 5:17; Acts 7:51).


m) The gospel cannot help those at war with God (Rom 5:8; 8:7; Luke 19:14).


n) The gospel cannot help those without any fear of God (Rom 3:18; Ps 36:1).


o) The gospel cannot help those that do not have any faith (Heb 11:6; Ps 10:4).


p) The gospel cannot help those who think it is foolishness (1 Cor 1:18,23; 2:14).


q) The gospel cannot help those whose minds are blinded by Satan (2 Cor 4:3-4).


r) The gospel cannot help those without any strength (Rom 5:6; 7:8-9; 8:3).

 

[tyndale1946]

No because:

Gospel Is Not Involved In Regeneration


The Condition of Man precludes it:


a) The gospel cannot help those who are dead (Gen 2:17; Eph 2:1-3; Col 2:13).


b) The gospel cannot help those who cannot see it (John 3:3; II Cor 4:3-4).


c) The gospel cannot help those who cannot hear it (John 8:43,47; Acts 7:57).


d) The gospel cannot help those who cannot understand it (John 8:43; II Tim 2:25).


e) The gospel cannot help those who will not understand it (Rom 3:11; II Pet 3:5).


f) The gospel cannot help those who will not seek God (Ps 14:2-3; Rom 3:11).


g) The gospel cannot help those who cannot please God (Rom 8:8; 3:12; Is 64:6).


h) The gospel cannot help those who cannot be subject to it (Rom 8:7; Jer 13:23).


i) The gospel cannot help even if one preached from the dead (Luke 16:31).


j) The gospel cannot help those who are beyond any reformation (Isa 26:10).


k) The gospel cannot help those beyond the Spirit’s influence (1 Cor 2:14).


l) The gospel cannot help those at war with the Spirit (Gal 5:17; Acts 7:51).


m) The gospel cannot help those at war with God (Rom 5:8; 8:7; Luke 19:14).


n) The gospel cannot help those without any fear of God (Rom 3:18; Ps 36:1).


o) The gospel cannot help those that do not have any faith (Heb 11:6; Ps 10:4).


p) The gospel cannot help those who think it is foolishness (1 Cor 1:18,23; 2:14).


q) The gospel cannot help those whose minds are blinded by Satan (2 Cor 4:3-4).


r) The gospel cannot help those without any strength (Rom 5:6; 7:8-9; 8:3).

Tony, if you don't mind me asking, what does the PB stand for?... Brother Glen