You may be teaching Justification by the Law !

[Don]

Did you not actually read what I wrote?!? "While review is considered a synonymn for rehearse, rehearse is not considered a synonym for review. if you were truly honest, you would have posted the synonym lists for both words, instead of just the one that satisfies YOUR viewpoint.

The TRUTH has a serious foundation: honesty.

Let's discuss one single thing that you mentioned: "if anyone is believing and or teaching that they are Justified before God because of their act of Faith and or believing...."

You justify this conclusion by saying that Matt 23:23 are the words of Jesus.

What about Jesus's words in John 3:16? For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Or John 3:18? He that believeth on him is not condemned

Or John's words in John 3:36? He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life....

Or Jesus's words in John 5:24? Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation.

Or Jesus's words on John 6:40? ...that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life....

Or John 6:47? Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Or John's words in John 20:31? and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Or Romans 5:1? Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ....

Or John 5:1? Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God....

Would you care to elaborate how belief is promoting a false teaching when Jesus Himself said we must do it?

 

[Don]

Are we done?

 

[Don]

Guess we are....

 

[BobRyan]

Isn't he trying toassert that even requiring a sinner to place faith in jesus to save them is to be seen as a work, so that salvation is really unconditional, period?

Love of God is unconditional.

Salvation is conditional "to as many as received Him to THEM He gave the right to be called the sons of God" John 1.

"He came to His own - and His own received Him not" John 1:11.

"If anyone hears my voice AND opens the door - I will com in " Rev 3.

"IF we confess our sins HE is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness" 1John 1:9

 

[savedbymercy]

Love of God is unconditional.

Salvation is conditional "to as many as received Him to THEM He gave the right to be called the sons of God" John 1.

"He came to His own - and His own received Him not" John 1:11.

"If anyone hears my voice AND opens the door - I will com in " Rev 3.

"IF we confess our sins HE is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness" 1John 1:9

This is teaching salvation by works, by what a person does !

 

[savedbymercy]

Justification by works Vs by Faith and how !

How must Justification by Faith oppose Justification by works ? This is a most serious question and ignorance to the proper answer leaves us in eternal peril ! Faith in this instance as it opposes works Rom 4:1-2

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Rom 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Faith therefore must be the object of ones Faith as the basis of their Justification, namely the Person and Work of Jesus Christ, and therefore it cannot be Faith as our act of believing, for if it means our act of believing, then there would be no real opposing of Justification by our works, and Justification by faith comes to nought , yes, then we overturn the Gospel doctrine of Justification by Faith in its purity and simplicity, and yet are we still cleaving to Justification by works, something we have done, and we know that to be a false teaching !1304

 

[Don]

I think I'm being ignored....

Interesting that she quoted Romans 4, but stopped short of verse 3: For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Yet once again using only those verses that support the conclusion she's trying to make, rather than use scripture in context.

As for her last paragraph, that's a jumbled mess that basically is trying to say that faith is not what we think it is. It kind of supports the scripture that says faith is worked in us; but also seems to indicate that faith is external, or even another name for Jesus.

 

[PreachTony]

This is teaching salvation by works, by what a person does !

So salvation is unconditional? Man is completely passive in salvation? Is that what you mean, savedbymercy? Because that's what I'm reading. Even though several other posts have pointed out that man has an active role in salvation, you seem to be taking the point of view that one verse negates these other verses.

If man is completely passive in salvation, then what is the point of evangelism? What is the point of preaching? Was Paul just plain wrong when he said that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God, which requires a preacher?

 

[savedbymercy]

So salvation is unconditional? Man is completely passive in salvation? Is that what you mean, savedbymercy? Because that's what I'm reading. Even though several other posts have pointed out that man has an active role in salvation, you seem to be taking the point of view that one verse negates these other verses.

If man is completely passive in salvation, then what is the point of evangelism? What is the point of preaching? Was Paul just plain wrong when he said that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God, which requires a preacher?

Rabbit Trail comments, deal with what I have posted !

 

[PreachTony]

Rabbit Trail comments, deal with what I have posted !

You know what, no! I'm out. You want everyone to answer you, but you won't clearly answer anyone else. So fine, I'm out of this conversation, now. You go ahead and sit in your own little world where you don't have to respond to other people's questions unless they respond to you in a manner that you like. You're acting very childish with your responses ot many of the question I have brought forward, or Don, or others.

For the record, what I asked you is not an attempt at a rabbit trail. It's an honest desire on my part to clarify your insistence on using one part of one verse and acting like it overrides other verses that state an opposing point of view. I asked you before if the words of Jesus were of greater weight than the words of the apostles, given that all scripture is divinely inspired. I don't recall seeing an answer from you. I asked if man is completely passive in salvation, seeing as you are adamant faith is a work, yet the scriptures say we are not saved by works. I don't recall seeing an answer from you.

If you did answer these points, then please indicate where and I will graciously apologize. Otherwise, I'm tired of this rhetorical game you are playing. You have proven that you are settled in your ways and refuse to welcome any opposing views. Good evening.

 

[savedbymercy]

You know what, no! I'm out. You want everyone to answer you, but you won't clearly answer anyone else. So fine, I'm out of this conversation, now. You go ahead and sit in your own little world where you don't have to respond to other people's questions unless they respond to you in a manner that you like. You're acting very childish with your responses ot many of the question I have brought forward, or Don, or others.

For the record, what I asked you is not an attempt at a rabbit trail. It's an honest desire on my part to clarify your insistence on using one part of one verse and acting like it overrides other verses that state an opposing point of view. I asked you before if the words of Jesus were of greater weight than the words of the apostles, given that all scripture is divinely inspired. I don't recall seeing an answer from you. I asked if man is completely passive in salvation, seeing as you are adamant faith is a work, yet the scriptures say we are not saved by works. I don't recall seeing an answer from you.

If you did answer these points, then please indicate where and I will graciously apologize. Otherwise, I'm tired of this rhetorical game you are playing. You have proven that you are settled in your ways and refuse to welcome any opposing views. Good evening.

Deal with what I have explained already !

 

[Don]

EVERYONE HAS!!! BUT YOU WON'T ENGAGE IN DISCUSSION!!!

Yeesh. Mods, if you can't close this thread, is there some way to make it exclusive to savedbymercy, since she obviously doesn't want discussion, so she can go ahead and post whatever it is she's trying to say?

 

[savedbymercy]

You may be teaching Justification by the Law ! 3

Phil 3:9

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

I yet find it necessary to caution people who are carelessly making their faith their righteousness before God, many times its because of a wilful faulty interpretation of Rom 4:3,5

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Now they teach falsely that these scriptures mean that God see's a persons own faith as their righteousness or that God will impute to them righteousness after their and because of their act of believing; But yet if this were true [its not], there is a contradiction, for that would mean that ones own faith is their righteousness in stark contrast with what Paul writes in Phil 3:9

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

This is because Faith as its performed by man is a work of the Law that ought to be done according to Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Yes, clearly Faith is a weightier matter of the Law that ought to be done ! That word ought is the greek word dei and means:

I.it is necessary, there is need of, it behooves, is right and proper

A.necessity lying in the nature of the case


B.necessity brought on by circumstances or by the conduct of others toward us.


C.necessity in reference to what is required to attain some end


D.a necessity of law and command, of duty, equity


E.necessity established by the counsel and decree of God, especially by that purpose of his which relates to the salvation of men by the intervention of Christ and which is disclosed in the Old Testament prophecies

i.concerning what Christ was destined finally to undergo, his sufferings, death, resurrection, ascension

So now if we understand Rom 4:3,5 to not be referring to ones own act of faith or believing, but to Christ as the object of our faith, and He being our righteousness instead of our faith, thats a who different matter, thats called submitting to the Righteousness of God, something the jews failed miserbly at Rom 10:1-3


Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

You see, if we believe our own faith is our righteousness, we do as these ignorant jews did which was going about to establish their own righteousness

We submitt to the Righteousness of God when it is revealed to us by the Gospel to Faith Rom 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein[The Gospel] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Faith can hardly be ones Righteousness when in fact ones Righteousness by Christ is revealed to them through God given Faith !

Now think on these things, a if God will, He will give you understanding to deliver you from the snare of the devil, otherwise serious shall be the consequnces for believing such a thing, that ones faith is their righteousness or the cause as to why imputed righteousness to you !

 

[BobRyan]

Love of God is unconditional.

Salvation is conditional "to as many as received Him to THEM He gave the right to be called the sons of God" John 1.

"He came to His own - and His own received Him not" John 1:11.

"If anyone hears my voice AND opens the door - I will com in " Rev 3.

"IF we confess our sins HE is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness" 1John 1:9

This is teaching salvation by works, by what a person does !

Certainly it is true that some people may view those texts as teaching works - but the Bible never calls it "salvation by works" to repent, or to receive Christ.

Not one text in all of scripture says "you confessed your sin and are thereby claiming to be saved by works"

Not one text in all of scripture saying "you received Christ and are thereby claiming to be saved by works"

You can find it in Calvinism.

You cannot find it in actual scripture.

 

[savedbymercy]

br

Certainly it is true that some people may view those texts as teaching works - but the Bible never calls it "salvation by works" to repent, or to receive Christ.

Is Repenting something done by the person ? An act of theirs, something done ?

If you answer yes, then its classified as a work ! Not only that, its a Commandment Acts 17:30

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

So its salvation by works, or by obeying a Commandment, all of which contradicts Salvation by Grace !

Not one text in all of scripture says "you confessed your sin and are thereby claiming to be saved by works"

Thats a lame bit of reasoning, and does not have to say that , confessing sin is something a person does, a action of theirs, which is also work, whether a person says it or not.

Show me a text of scripture that says confessing your sins is not a work !

The greek word for work ergon means:


I.business, employment, that which any one is occupied

A.that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking



II.any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind


III.an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Now simply ask yourself the question, does one confessing their sin qualify as, an act, deed, a thing done by them ?

 

[PreachTony]

Is Repenting something done by the person ? An act of theirs, something done ?

If you answer yes, then its classified as a work ! Not only that, its a Commandment Acts 17:30

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

So its salvation by works, or by obeying a Commandment, all of which contradicts Salvation by Grace !

Now simply ask yourself the question, does one confessing their sin qualify as, an act, deed, a thing done by them ?

I'm going to give this one last attempt. No one would argue that we are saved by grace, but we have to actively participate to attain that salvation. The Bible proves this in several places.

I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Arguably, the act of "entering in" by man is a "work," under your definition. Yet doing so offers us salvation.

Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

From the parable of the seed, we see here that the devil seeks to take the word from people, lest they believe (a work, according to you) and be saved (a result of the work).

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Post-resurrection, as Jesus is commissioning the disciples, He tells them that whoever believes (a work, per your definition) and is baptized shall be saved. You could argue requiring baptism for salvation, but the remained of scripture shows baptism to be a symbol and, in some ways, a progression from an experience of grace to make an outward sign of conversion to the family of God.

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

The jailer is told to believe (a work, per you) and he shall be saved. The apostles deliver the word of God to him and his household, and they hear the word, which is a physical action (a work, per your definitions) and believe (a work, per you).

Yet, in another scripture, as already pointed out, but seemingly ignored, we read:

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

We are not saved by works, but by grace through faith, yet the Bible tells us faith comes by hearing (a work. per you) the preached word of God (Romans 10). That scripture even says whoever shall call (a work, by your definition) on the Lord shall be saved.

So the logical conclusion is that not every physical movement of man is to be considered a work. Not everything we do is a work. Otherwise the scriptures are in contradiction. I wish you would read this and respond properly, but you'll probably just tell me to review your points, instead of reviewing mine.

You have still yet to tell me if certain verses of scripture override others based on who spoke them int he physical body. When or if you start actively answering these questions we may be able to have a good discussion.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Love of God is unconditional.

Salvation is conditional "to as many as received Him to THEM He gave the right to be called the sons of God" John 1.

"He came to His own - and His own received Him not" John 1:11.

"If anyone hears my voice AND opens the door - I will com in " Rev 3.

"IF we confess our sins HE is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness" 1John 1:9

Originally Posted by savedbymercy
This is teaching salvation by works, by what a person does !

Certainly it is true that some people may view those texts as teaching works - but the Bible never calls it "salvation by works" to repent, or to receive Christ.

Not one text in all of scripture says "you confessed your sin and are thereby claiming to be saved by works"

Not one text in all of scripture saying "you received Christ and are thereby claiming to be saved by works"

You can find it in Calvinism.

You cannot find it in actual scripture.

Calvinism cannot find such statements in the Bible so it simply adds its own extreme inference to invent the proof/support it needs for its claims.

Is Repenting something done by the person ? An act of theirs, something done ?

Is breathing something we do - ???

Is there even one text that says that breathing is a form of "Salvation by works'???

If you answer yes, then its classified as a work

But never in the actual Bible.

it is only stuck in that "works" classification by Calvinism - never by the actual Bible.

! Not only that, its a Commandment Acts 17:30

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Indeed the Bible mentions repentance - but never claims that to repent is to achieve salvation by works OR to pursue salvation by works.

Not one text in all of scripture makes that claim about breathing, or about repentance or about confession or about receiving Christ.

To find any condemnation at all about those activities being a sort of "salvation by works" you have to go to Calvinist literature -- you will not find it in the actual Bible.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[savedbymercy]

Calvinism cannot find such statements in the Bible so it simply adds its own extreme inference to invent the proof/support it needs for its claims.





Is breathing something we do - ???

Is there even one text that says that breathing is a form of "Salvation by works'???






But never in the actual Bible.

it is only stuck in that "works" classification by Calvinism - never by the actual Bible.




Indeed the Bible mentions repentance - but never claims that to repent is to achieve salvation by works OR to pursue salvation by works.

Not one text in all of scripture makes that claim about breathing, or about repentance or about confession or about receiving Christ.

To find any condemnation at all about those activities being a sort of "salvation by works" you have to go to Calvinist literature -- you will not find it in the actual Bible.


in Christ,

Bob

I never said that is what the bible says repentance is for ! But when you , me or anyone else teach that repentance is a requirement to be obeyed for God to save you, it is preaching salvation by works, by doing law !

 

[BobRyan]

I never said that is what the bible says repentance is for ! But when you , me or anyone else teach that repentance is a requirement to be obeyed for God to save you, it is preaching salvation by works, by doing law !

I understand that this is a POV that many today have - but they have not one Bible text in support of it.

The Bible never claims that to repent, or to confess, or to receive Christ is "salvation by works" --

Rather the Bible says "IF WE Confess our sins HE is faithful and just to Forgive" 1John 1:9

it never says "And such would be salvation by works"

The Bible says "I STAND at the door and knock - IF anyone hears My voice AND OPENS the door - I will come in" Rev 3

It never says "and such would be salvation by works"

In Calvinism there is no such thing as "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11 no matter what the Bible says to the contrary because in Calvinism the way that the lost person is saved is that first "HE comes to His OWN" those whom He abitrarily selects out from among the lost - causes "His own" to be born again - regenerated - THEN compels them to accept the Gospel for they are already regenerate - already born-again already saved, already the New Creation old things passed away all things become new.

In that form of Calvinism - no such thing as "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11

 

[savedbymercy]

I understand that this is a POV that many today have - but they have not one Bible text in support of it.

The Bible never claims that to repent, or to confess, or to receive Christ is "salvation by works" --

Rather the Bible says "IF WE Confess our sins HE is faithful and just to Forgive" 1John 1:9

it never says "And such would be salvation by works"

The Bible says "I STAND at the door and knock - IF anyone hears My voice AND OPENS the door - I will come in" Rev 3

It never says "and such would be salvation by works"

In Calvinism there is no such thing as "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11 no matter what the Bible says to the contrary because in Calvinism the way that the lost person is saved is that first "HE comes to His OWN" those whom He abitrarily selects out from among the lost - causes "His own" to be born again - regenerated - THEN compels them to accept the Gospel for they are already regenerate - already born-again already saved, already the New Creation old things passed away all things become new.

In that form of Calvinism - no such thing as "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11

The bible never said that if you trust in doing those things, like confessing sins, repentance, opening up the door, to get saved is not Salvation by works ! Now if you have a scripture stating that show it to me !

The fact is a work is any act , deed or thing done by us !