You've GOT to watch this - please

Ah, the old lifestyle argument surfaces. I figured that's where we were going next.

Please define what makes a song sensual and fleshly. Time signature? Key signature? Minor chords? Certain instruments? Surely empirical evidence exists that defines what is considered sensual and fleshly.

I can't speak to the reasons why she went into the arms of another man, and I don't really care. There have been plenty of IFB men and women who have had adulterous affairs and we don't condemn all of IFB, do we?

 

If we are to know them by their fruit, wouldn't the fact that she's an adulterous harlot mean something? If you are listening to a pastor who is on meth and is engaging in sodomy do you really believe the messages he brings each Sunday are from God? If you are listening to CCM artists who have tats and holes all over their bodies or are doing blow or are engaging in fornication or adultery and all the other sins that are consistent within CCM, do you really believe that this music is of God? Most of these artists are charismatics and involved in Catholic ecumenicism. Is it right for Baptists to walk together with these folks?

Music that is unbalanced towards rhythm is fleshly. Melody speaks to the spirit, harmony to the mind and rhythm to the flesh. In the '50s young adults didn't fornicate in the backs of cars to a Franny Crosby hymn or the flight of the bumblebees. They fornicated to fleshly music that was heavy on rhythm and since the act caused the cars to move they called the music rock and roll. Now this same style has invaded our churches and invaded the minds of Christians.

"Musical rhythms affect both our hearts and our brains. One road to arousing a range of agitated feelings -- tense, excited, sometimes sexual ---is through pronounced and insistent rhythms,...artfully used to excite the sexual tension...drumming may produce these powerful effects by actually driving the brain's electrical rhythms." - Psychology Today​

"The sexuality of rhythm is usually referred to in terms of its rhythm--it is the beat that commands a directly physical response." - Simon Frith​

Order in Music and Christian Life - Frank Garlock​

First > Spirit > Melody > Dominant

Second > Mind > Harmony> Secondary

Last > Body > Rhythm > Controlled​

"The conventional secular or Christian rock group has a slightly different blend. Typically there are four basic instruments: a rhythm guitar, a bass guitar, an array of drums and the lead guitar. Although the guitar is not usually considered a rhythm instrument, as used by a rock group it definitely is. All four instruments can be classified as belonging to the rhythm family...At best the typical sound which comes from the typical rock group is 75% rhythm." - Frank Garlock​

Not the arms of another man, the arms of multiple married men. If you do not care then how will you know her by her fruits?

No we don't condemn all of IFB churches if something goes wrong in one, but if sin is going on in a church then it should be closely scrutinzed as to why it's occuring. Maybe that IFB is reading from the sexual "Message Bible", maybe they have women in their congregation not dressing modestly and becoming a snare, maybe they're touching the unclean things of television and movies or just maaaybe they're listening to rock and roll worship and they should get back to hymns, psalms and spiritual songs? Whatever is happening should be evaluated against scripture and adjusted so that we might live holy, sanctified lives.

"Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered." - Isaiah 23:6​

 

some thoughts: all quotes by Rufus1611: BTW, I'm putting "CCM" in quotes since ya'll can't accurately define it...

And this has what to do with "CCM"? Are those who listen sodomites & drug addicts? Do you really want to make that accusation here?

What an absolutely ridiculous, baseless, slanderous claim. Name me several. BTW, I'll name you some KJV1611 IFB pastors who molested children. Does that mean you run from all IFB Pastors? Ridiculous.

"Most," huh? OK, name me 250. That's probably 1% of all modern artists. Once again, ridiculous claims with no proof. Shame on you.

Hey, ya know what this is? Ancient Greek philosophy. You're spouting paganism my friend. Pythagoras and later platonic philosophy. Nice job. But not scriptural.

wrong source. This was first put out there by Bill Gothard, a thoroughly discredited fraud who has embezzled untold thousands, and led folks into cult-like compounds. Garlock is "quoting" (or plagiarizing) Gothard. Both are wrong.

​

Well, howdy doody! Take a look at ancient Hebrew music. Mostly rhythmic too. The pagans. This would be a great quote, if Garlock wrote any scripture. Thank God he didn't.

What a great way to take scripture out of context. You're making my job easier by the minute.

"Sing unto the Lord a new Song."

Psalm 150

A Psalm of Praise.

1Praise the LORD!
Praise God in His sanctuary;
Praise Him in His mighty expanse.
2Praise Him for His mighty deeds;
Praise Him according to His excellent greatness.
3Praise Him with trumpet sound;
Praise Him with harp and lyre.
4Praise Him with timbrel and dancing;
Praise Him with stringed instruments and pipe.
5Praise Him with loud cymbals;
Praise Him with resounding cymbals.
6Let everything that has breath praise the LORD.
Praise the LORD!

OK, I'll do that. Thanks.

By the way, the reason you won't answer my "24 questions" in post #68 is because you cannot do it.

 

What happens if I cause one of my brothers to stumble? Or if I offend one of His little ones?

 

Would that also apply to those who lie to our teenagers about this music, as I was lied to? Does it cut both ways?

Forcing this musical taste on someone crosses the line. This is where Paul's treatise on our freedoms in Christ and subsequent responsibilities come to bear.

 

If I call myself Hymn-N-Em and I rap Fanny Crosby lyrics to a phat beat, and I draw all manner of gangstas to the cross, but I lead one of Christ's little ones out of the fold and into the world that I claim to be ministering to, what profit is it to me? Jesus said it would be better for a millstone to be tied around my neck and be cast into the sea.

 

Wasn't Sandi Patti more traditional in her music? Like the mellow, syrupy kind of stuff Garlock and others produce? At least that's what I used to hear from her. In fact, one anti-CCM book quotes Steve Camp (in his pre-107 thesis days) as saying "I'm not into that Sandi Patti groove".
You seem to be calling her a "rock star" just because she was very popular in contemporary Churches. So then if Garlock's Majesty Music becomes popular, would it then be classified as "CCM/Rock"?

And Aaron still fails to see the teaching's connection to racism. Classical/traditional music elements derived from pagan Romans, Greeks and Norse is automatically from God, of course.

What it also is is holistic behavioral psychology associated with Chi! These same IFB's condemn another Fundamentalist who so much as uses a word associated with mainstream psychology (and the rest of the contemporary Church, of course), but mystical holism and tabloid junk science are OK when it proves their music doctrine!:BangHead:

 

This comment was referring to Sandi Patti. If she was engaged in sleeping around with married men and then going out on stage and providing her "worship music" then how was she right with God and how was this Godly music?

Here's the several though that you asked for...

Marsha Stevens - Lesbian
Doug Pinnick of King's X - Sodomite
Stryper - Effeminate cross-dressing drunkards
Sandi Patti - Adulterer
Ja Marc Davis of Raze - Molesting rapist
Michael English - Long haired adulterer
Jaci Velasquez - Temptress engaged in menage' troi soft porn
Carman - Chick idol
Amy Grant - Adulterer
POD - tatoo'd rastafarian cult symbol flashers
Michael W Smith - Runer

“Now, the industry is celebrity-driven. The song is almost irrelevant. The focus is on the person, and songs have become disposable.” - Michael Card​

(Source: Christian Rock Exposed)

I gave you scripture and that bounces right off so I moved on. If this is the work of pythagoras was he a moron? How about confucious, and aristotle who recognized the importance of balanced music in their societies. Perhaps Henry David Thoreau? These might not be theologians but weren't they almost as bright as you? How about the Chinese dynasties that found balanced music to be vital to their civilization all the way up until the last Chinese dynasty, which decided it wasn't so important, and allowed foreign music into their borders making them the last Chinese dynasty. Music matters.

wrong source. This was first put out there by Bill Gothard, a thoroughly discredited fraud who has embezzled untold thousands, and led folks into cult-like compounds. Garlock is "quoting" (or plagiarizing) Gothard. Both are wrong.

​

I took it from Frank Garlock and Kurt Woetzel's book called Music in the Balance. You don't like the scriptural arguments, you don't like the great minds of the world's arguments, you don't like the Christian's arguments. I give, you win.

It's one of many scriptures that speak positively about singing melodies. Perhaps you would desire to provide one that points out how playing music heavy in rhythm is pleasing to God?

The new song in my view, is casting off the world's music in favor of psalms, hymns and spiritual songs.

 

Actually, all rock/jazz/blues has it's roots in African/Haitian Voodoo. It came into the West through the Mississippi Delta by the slave trade.

 

A musical work is intended to be experienced as a whole. One need not know music theory to understand its appeal. As tinytim and rbell both asserted, one only needs "common sense."

As far as empirical evidence is concerned, rufus has supplied it in the descriptions of the movements elicited by certain kinds of music. And if there's any doubt about one's perception, one only need to go to the names coined to differentiate musical styles to establish the general consensus.

Of course, there is no dispute about the term "rock" and the choice to attach it to a musical style.

But what of Jazz? "Robert Farris Thompson thinks that 'jazz' and 'jism' likely derive from the Ki-Kongo dinza, which means 'to ejaculate.'" (Michael Ventura, Hear That Long Snake Moan. St. Martin's Press.)

 

What do you know of ancient Hebrew music? "Mostly rhythmic?" Speaking of frauds...How do you justify making up your own facts?

 

Thank you very much for proving my point about racism... I knew it wouldn't be long until it actually surfaced.

And just for the record... when you wrote:
"Georgie Porgie Pudding and pie
Kissed the girls and made them cry.
But when the boys came out to play
Georgie Porgie ran away...and said, "What a good boy am I!" :saint: "

Yesterday, I thought it was hilarious!!
because the only girl I ever made cry was my wife in kindergarten...

I kissed her on the cheek, she slapped me, and she got d-hall!
Ooooo was she mad!

But she got over it, and married me 12 yrs later!!!!

Now, what are we going to do with the fact that the banjo came the same way into America as you claim rock music came?

Can we get rid of them too.... I certainly hope so!!!

Oh, and grits... did they have their roots in Africa? I hate grits too!

Let's see, what else do I hate? um ... spinach!

You have a good day Aaron.

 

"tiny" must refer to the level of reading comprehension you've reached, because anyone at a third grade level can see there is nothing racist whatever stating the fact that rock music sprang from African/Haitian Voodoo.

The racist card is a cheap trick and common ploy of desperate people losing arguments.

Well, I dunno. Was the banjo sacred to African Voodoo?

In context, my use of the hybrid rhyme is clear. You come into a thread, throw your weight around, but when someone enters who can take you to task :tonofbricks:

you bail pretending to take the high road. Although I knew you weren't really done here. :type:

Now, are you prepared or not to support your supposition that all forms of music are hallowed?

 

Hence, holism is the philosophy here!

Agai, to the impure, all things are impure. Ejaculation was not in itself impure, except when used outside of marriage. So you have non Christian people, instead of being evangelized, they are menstolen and enslaved, and at first had the Gospel kept from them, then a corrupt form of it given to them to justify their enslavement. They then adapt their own meaning of the Gospel for their survival in that situation, but in the process it is watered down and nominal, and there is still a lot of sensuality. So their musical rhythms are taken and used for this sensuality and even named after it.

This is still not a biblical proof against the rhythms; only the wrong use of them; and if you say that the rhythms cause the sin, you again have fallen into holistic behaviorism.
(And if such "bad association" is ground for rejecting the cultural offerings of a people, then perhaps we should also reject the marching style traditional rhythms and classical style of the conquerors who gave the people such a false gospel in the first place! Perhaps if they gave them the true Gospel and lived it themselves, we would not have these problems, nor the rebellion of their own society we complain about. Who should have known better?)

We gave you the references for that fact many times. You just chose to ignore it, (relying on the junk science instead). Or, you try to dismiss it with claims that were not supposed to worship like them. Now, you're trying a different route altogether. Do you really think the ancient Hebrews used palin versed traditional hymns with four part harmony; or medieval Catholic chants?

 

I didn't realize until this morning that av1611.org was the source for some of the info posted in this thread. Unfortunately for your side, they are not exactly credible sources of information.

Take a look at this thread for the debunking of claims made on that site.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=31177&page=4&highlight=av1611.org

 

So while Hamitic music is to be rejected because of their paganism, Japhetic philosophy as well as the music connected with it is not only OK, but becomes our standard which we interpret scripture AND judge our Christian brothers by! As I say on my page http://members.aol.com/etb700/ccm.html, Christians with the witness of the spirit are attacked as corrupting the Church, while pagan authorities are cited as authorities on music! And it becomes the main proof, even moreso than the scripture!
That is not to say there is no truth in what they say, but many of them have overhyped it, based on their pagan holistic philosophy! And since when is "man's WISDOM" something an good, old-line IFB relies on? Why doesn't Garlock and the rest of them "separate" from paganism like they try to tell the rest of us to?

"Melodies" says nothing about your old traditional style either.

And traditional style music our nodern hyms are set to are from the "world", and not the hymns, psalms and songs sung in the Bible!

 

Was Paul a holist when he said, a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? You need to get a clue.

Revisionist history. The sources I cited are both pro-African paganism. For them, these are virtues of their music.

cc's request was for empirical evidence of the sensual nature of certain kinds of music. What you need to counter it is empirical evidence against it, not some fable you make up in your own head.

That's a lie, but for the sake of argument, indulge me one more time, for rbell's sake.

No ancient Hebrew notation exists, except perhaps in the Masoretic texts, and what survives today in the synagogal chant is disconnected from its Hebrew roots by centuries and corrupted by the influence of occupying nations.

But...judging from Paul's admonitions to the Ephesians who contrasted psalms to the sensuality of the surrounding culture, I'm confident the Psalms sounded nothing like what we would call rock/jazz/blues today.

 

Good call on av1611.org. What a deceptive load of tripe they spew over there. They engage in slander, character assassination, bad science, bad theology, and shoddy logic. Run from their garbage...run fast. BTW...one of my friends is an agent for a singer (a Godly, committed Christian) slandered by those snakes. They are preparing a defamation lawsuit.

um, Rufus? Greek philosophers usually kept young boys as lovers. So you might want to go easy on using pythagorean/platonic philosophy as your base of attack.

Now, I could respond with a list of IFB pastors convicted of Child molestation...but since I don't condemn a whole based on the sins of a few, I won't do that.

BTW, your accusation against MWSmith and Jaci is slanderous and laughable. You feel comfy spreading lies about fellow Christians?

Oh, wait, I forgot. It's OK to lie if you're "exposing satan" in "CCM."

By the way, you ever plan on defining Satan's bounds for me? Post #68 remains unanswered. Can't do it, can you?

Aaron, I do not think for a minute that you're a racist. I believe you. But a basic premise in the argument you bring to the table is the "evil line of Ham" bunk...backed up by the urban legend/lie of the "Missionary that heard Christian rock and went into hysterics because that's what the cannibals listened to before they beheaded poor white safari tourists" story...

 

Aaron, do some reasearch, as I have, into ancient Hebraic and Semitic musical instruments. They used percussion very heavily.

 

I have done research. That's one reason I want you to validate your claim by citing your sources.

Percussion instruments do not figure prominently in the Hebrew Scriptures, neither do they figure prominently in Josephus' famous Antiquities where he lists the Jewish instruments (7.12.3). In fact, they don't figure prominently anywhere anything is written of ancient Hebrew music. Very little is known, and what is known does not support your assertion.

So, cite your sources, and when you do, please answer the questions I posed to you:

1. Are there any styles of music that can be classified as riotous or excessive?

2. What am I supposed to "answer" in your little disclaimer?