Please show your connection between between Proverbs 11:30 and Matthew 28:18-20. I don't readily see what you are trying to connect.
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Zeal for correcting a brother greater than for winning a soul?
- Thread starter George Antonios
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Yet, you brought it up...
Tsalagi
Member
I didn't bring it up - I pointed out tactics being used by those who DID bring it up as an example of the OP's observations here.
You managed to miss that point despite it being clearly stated.
ad finitum
Active Member
It's pretty simple, even in English. Jesus said, "But there are some of you who believe not...that's why I said no man can come unto me except it were given unto him of my Father."
In other words, the reason the Father doesn't give unto a man is because that man doesn't believe.
ad finitum
Active Member
What do these people in Romans 1 know? It might help to highlight them in boldface:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead;
so that they are without excuse:
These people hold the truth (18). Everything they need to know about God was given to them. It is because they know, but then exchange that truth for something else, that they are without excuse.
ad finitum
Active Member
That's not the argument that was given here. Rejecting Christ? The "eyes wide open" expression was about Romans 1, where Christ is not mentioned regarding the knowledge God makes plain to men and which truths they hold in unrighteousness.
ad finitum
Active Member
In the first link, there is a set of criteria, one of which says:
"God’s grace is a response to man’s initial effort"
What effort would that be?
Does the passage actually say what you assert?
John 6:62-65
Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
Please clarify your assertion. The text expresses God's full choice in who will believe.
God never gives us the reason why He chooses to redeem some and not redeem all.
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
Most assuredly, people who are born into this world, and not yet born again, their eyes are closed. People with closed eyes can not see the light, their eyes must be opened.
They do not have 'eyes wide open' to choose God over Satan, and then they are only closed after rejecting God.
People must be turned, they do not turn themselves, which is why God sends apostles prophets, teachers.
People do not believe unto salvation, God and Christ, without intervention of the Holy Spirit, in this case God sends to them Paul the apostle.
Acts 26:17-19
17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you,
18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
And only God can open the eyes of a man born blind.
They do not have 'eyes wide open' to choose God over Satan, and then they are only closed after rejecting God.
People must be turned, they do not turn themselves, which is why God sends apostles prophets, teachers.
People do not believe unto salvation, God and Christ, without intervention of the Holy Spirit, in this case God sends to them Paul the apostle.
Acts 26:17-19
17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you,
18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
And only God can open the eyes of a man born blind.
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George Antonios
Well-Known Member
You guys do realize that all those corrective posts are a confirmation of the accuracy of the OP, right?
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
Following your argument, what your saying is this forum should not exist.
To be the true "soul winner"
Not only are they blind, they are also dead in their trespasses and sins. This is precisely why God must rebirth them.
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
Many things the Holy Spirit does, that is just one of them.
How does He do that?
ad finitum
Active Member
The text does not express God's choice. It expresses man's choice to believe or not believe. Jesus said, some of you don't believe, that's why (your unbelief is why) I said no one can come to me except the Father grant.
The Father does not grant to come to Jesus without faith. For without Faith, it is impossible to pleas God.
ad finitum
Active Member
But what can be known about God is plain to them because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. It is for this reason that people are without excuse.
AustinC,
Sure. Proverbs 11 is showing a contrast between the righteous and the wicked;
The phrase in verse thirty for winneth souls...can be translated as he who captures souls, or he who taketh souls
30 The fruit of the righteous [is] a tree of life, And whoso is taking souls [is] wise. ylt
The fruit of the righteous gains souls. nasb
And he who wins souls is wise.
a. The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life: A righteous life bears fruit, and it gives life to others. The New Testament will later speak of the fruit of the Spirit in the life of God’s people (Galatians 5:22-23, Ephesians 5:9). This is fruit like a tree of life to others. It brings shade and sustenance to others.
https://enduringword.com/bible-commentary/proverbs-11/i.
“The fruit of the righteous – that is to say his life – is not a thing fastened upon him, but it grows out of him…. Look to it more and more that your religion is real, true, natural, vital – not artificial, constrained, superficial, a thing of times, days, places, a fungus produced by excitement, a fermentation generated by meetings and stirred by oratory. We all need a religion which can live either in a wilderness, or in a crowd; a religion which will show itself in every walk of life, and in every company.” (Spurgeon)
b. He who wins souls is wise: One of the greatest exercises of wisdom is to win souls to God and His kingdom. It takes wisdom to love, give, and winsomely answer those who have yet to come into God’s kingdom.
·
i. “God himself wins not souls without wisdom, for the eternal plan of salvation was dictated by an infallible judgment, and in every line of it infinite skill is apparent…. There is as much wisdom to be seen in the new creation as in the old. In a sinner saved, there is as much of God to be beheld as in a universe rising out of nothing.” (Spurgeon)
ii. He who wins souls: “Hebrew, that catcheth souls, as a fowler doth birds; that maketh it his design and business, and useth all his skill and diligence, to gain souls to God, and to pluck them out of the snare of the devil.” (Poole)
iii. “The phrase ‘to win souls (i.e. people)’ can, however, also mean ‘to take lives’, when the context demands it (as in 1 Kings 19:4)…. But the Old Testament knows the metaphor of capturing people with ideas or influences…and the promise, ‘thou shalt catch men’, was doubly apt if it was meant to awaken echoes of this proverb.” (Kidner)
iv. “It is implied in our text that there are souls which need winning. Ah me, all souls of men are lost by nature.” (Spurgeon)
v. “‘He that winneth souls is wise.’ I do not ask you how he did it. He sang the gospel, and you did not like it, but if he won souls he was wise. Soul-winners have all their own ways, and if they do but win souls they are wise. I will tell you what is not wise, and will not be thought so at the last, namely to go about the churches doing nothing yourself and railing at all the Lord’s useful servants.” (Spurgeon)
mt28:
19 having gone, then, disciple all the nations, (baptizing them -- to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you,) and lo, I am with you all the days -- till the full end of the age.'
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
Sure. Proverbs 11 is showing a contrast between the righteous and the wicked;
The phrase in verse thirty for winneth souls...can be translated as he who captures souls, or he who taketh souls
30 The fruit of the righteous [is] a tree of life, And whoso is taking souls [is] wise. ylt
The fruit of the righteous gains souls. nasb
And he who wins souls is wise.
a. The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life: A righteous life bears fruit, and it gives life to others. The New Testament will later speak of the fruit of the Spirit in the life of God’s people (Galatians 5:22-23, Ephesians 5:9). This is fruit like a tree of life to others. It brings shade and sustenance to others.
https://enduringword.com/bible-commentary/proverbs-11/i.
“The fruit of the righteous – that is to say his life – is not a thing fastened upon him, but it grows out of him…. Look to it more and more that your religion is real, true, natural, vital – not artificial, constrained, superficial, a thing of times, days, places, a fungus produced by excitement, a fermentation generated by meetings and stirred by oratory. We all need a religion which can live either in a wilderness, or in a crowd; a religion which will show itself in every walk of life, and in every company.” (Spurgeon)
b. He who wins souls is wise: One of the greatest exercises of wisdom is to win souls to God and His kingdom. It takes wisdom to love, give, and winsomely answer those who have yet to come into God’s kingdom.
·
i. “God himself wins not souls without wisdom, for the eternal plan of salvation was dictated by an infallible judgment, and in every line of it infinite skill is apparent…. There is as much wisdom to be seen in the new creation as in the old. In a sinner saved, there is as much of God to be beheld as in a universe rising out of nothing.” (Spurgeon)
ii. He who wins souls: “Hebrew, that catcheth souls, as a fowler doth birds; that maketh it his design and business, and useth all his skill and diligence, to gain souls to God, and to pluck them out of the snare of the devil.” (Poole)
iii. “The phrase ‘to win souls (i.e. people)’ can, however, also mean ‘to take lives’, when the context demands it (as in 1 Kings 19:4)…. But the Old Testament knows the metaphor of capturing people with ideas or influences…and the promise, ‘thou shalt catch men’, was doubly apt if it was meant to awaken echoes of this proverb.” (Kidner)
iv. “It is implied in our text that there are souls which need winning. Ah me, all souls of men are lost by nature.” (Spurgeon)
v. “‘He that winneth souls is wise.’ I do not ask you how he did it. He sang the gospel, and you did not like it, but if he won souls he was wise. Soul-winners have all their own ways, and if they do but win souls they are wise. I will tell you what is not wise, and will not be thought so at the last, namely to go about the churches doing nothing yourself and railing at all the Lord’s useful servants.” (Spurgeon)
mt28:
19 having gone, then, disciple all the nations, (baptizing them -- to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you,) and lo, I am with you all the days -- till the full end of the age.'
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
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Benjamin Keach, preaching from the types and Metaphors;
XI. But besides these outward and more visible trophies of the sacred Scriptures how marvellous is their empire, efficacy, and power within, upon the hearts and consciences of men!
It is this that converts the soul, enlightens the eye, Ps 19:7 ;
discovers sin, Ro 7:7 ;
\convinces gainsayers, 2Ti 3:16 ;
killeth and terrifieth, 2Co 3:6
; rejoiceth the heart,. Ps 19:8; 119:103 ;
quickeneth, Ps 119:50 ;
comforteth, Ro 15:4 ;
manifesteth the thoughts, overthrows false religions, casteth down strongholds, and subverts the whole kingdom of Satan, 2Co 10:4 .
What consolations at some times! What terrors at others, do proceed from the
sacred book! How are the poor souls of men by it mightily refreshed! Their weak hearts wonderfully strengthened!
Their dead spirits raised, and made to live again!
Those that sat in darkness, and the shadow of death, are enlightened! Many that were in chains and fetters, of fears and terrors of soul, are delivered and set at liberty!
Is it reasonable to conceive that a tree that bears such wonderful fruit, was planted by any other hand than that of God?
Who can speak words that shall restrain and repel all powers of darkness, when falling in to make havoc and desolation in the souls of men? That shall be able to give laws to the terrors of death, nay, eternal death, when they have taken hold, of the consciences of sinners? Are not all these wonders performed by the holy Scriptures? And do they not often, on the other side, breathe thunder and lightnings? throw down the mighty from their seats, and destroy the thrones of the proud and confident? Do they not turn the security of many into trembling and horror, and make their consciences to burn as if the fire of hell had already taken hold of them? ousands that have felt and'undergone such powerful effects of the word: nay, I verily believe, there are few that have read the Scriptures with attention and seriousness, but can more or less witness the same: and whence should
These things are evident from the experience of such mighty operations proceed, but because the Almighty Author has endued them with such virtue through the Spirit, whereby they become the power of God unto salvation. XII
XI. But besides these outward and more visible trophies of the sacred Scriptures how marvellous is their empire, efficacy, and power within, upon the hearts and consciences of men!
It is this that converts the soul, enlightens the eye, Ps 19:7 ;
discovers sin, Ro 7:7 ;
\convinces gainsayers, 2Ti 3:16 ;
killeth and terrifieth, 2Co 3:6
; rejoiceth the heart,. Ps 19:8; 119:103 ;
quickeneth, Ps 119:50 ;
comforteth, Ro 15:4 ;
manifesteth the thoughts, overthrows false religions, casteth down strongholds, and subverts the whole kingdom of Satan, 2Co 10:4 .
What consolations at some times! What terrors at others, do proceed from the
sacred book! How are the poor souls of men by it mightily refreshed! Their weak hearts wonderfully strengthened!
Their dead spirits raised, and made to live again!
Those that sat in darkness, and the shadow of death, are enlightened! Many that were in chains and fetters, of fears and terrors of soul, are delivered and set at liberty!
Is it reasonable to conceive that a tree that bears such wonderful fruit, was planted by any other hand than that of God?
Who can speak words that shall restrain and repel all powers of darkness, when falling in to make havoc and desolation in the souls of men? That shall be able to give laws to the terrors of death, nay, eternal death, when they have taken hold, of the consciences of sinners? Are not all these wonders performed by the holy Scriptures? And do they not often, on the other side, breathe thunder and lightnings? throw down the mighty from their seats, and destroy the thrones of the proud and confident? Do they not turn the security of many into trembling and horror, and make their consciences to burn as if the fire of hell had already taken hold of them? ousands that have felt and'undergone such powerful effects of the word: nay, I verily believe, there are few that have read the Scriptures with attention and seriousness, but can more or less witness the same: and whence should
These things are evident from the experience of such mighty operations proceed, but because the Almighty Author has endued them with such virtue through the Spirit, whereby they become the power of God unto salvation. XII
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all.
The passage disagrees with your assertion. You need to take this up with God because God tells you you are wrong.
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