Zeal for correcting a brother greater than for winning a soul?

[ad finitum]

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all.

The passage disagrees with your assertion. You need to take this up with God because God tells you you are wrong.

If it had said, "It is the Spirit who gives faith", this argument would be valid. The Spirit is given after we believe.

 

[AustinC]

AustinC,



Sure. Proverbs 11 is showing a contrast between the righteous and the wicked;
The phrase in verse thirty for winneth souls...can be translated as he who captures souls, or he who taketh souls

30 The fruit of the righteous [is] a tree of life, And whoso is taking souls [is] wise. ylt

The fruit of the righteous gains souls. nasb

And he who wins souls is wise.

a. The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life: A righteous life bears fruit, and it gives life to others. The New Testament will later speak of the fruit of the Spirit in the life of God’s people (Galatians 5:22-23, Ephesians 5:9). This is fruit like a tree of life to others. It brings shade and sustenance to others.
https://enduringword.com/bible-commentary/proverbs-11/i.



“The fruit of the righteous – that is to say his life – is not a thing fastened upon him, but it grows out of him…. Look to it more and more that your religion is real, true, natural, vital – not artificial, constrained, superficial, a thing of times, days, places, a fungus produced by excitement, a fermentation generated by meetings and stirred by oratory. We all need a religion which can live either in a wilderness, or in a crowd; a religion which will show itself in every walk of life, and in every company.” (Spurgeon)

b. He who wins souls is wise: One of the greatest exercises of wisdom is to win souls to God and His kingdom. It takes wisdom to love, give, and winsomely answer those who have yet to come into God’s kingdom.

·
i. “God himself wins not souls without wisdom, for the eternal plan of salvation was dictated by an infallible judgment, and in every line of it infinite skill is apparent…. There is as much wisdom to be seen in the new creation as in the old. In a sinner saved, there is as much of God to be beheld as in a universe rising out of nothing.” (Spurgeon)

ii. He who wins souls: “Hebrew, that catcheth souls, as a fowler doth birds; that maketh it his design and business, and useth all his skill and diligence, to gain souls to God, and to pluck them out of the snare of the devil.” (Poole)

iii. “The phrase ‘to win souls (i.e. people)’ can, however, also mean ‘to take lives’, when the context demands it (as in 1 Kings 19:4)…. But the Old Testament knows the metaphor of capturing people with ideas or influences…and the promise, ‘thou shalt catch men’, was doubly apt if it was meant to awaken echoes of this proverb.” (Kidner)

iv. “It is implied in our text that there are souls which need winning. Ah me, all souls of men are lost by nature.” (Spurgeon)

v. “‘He that winneth souls is wise.’ I do not ask you how he did it. He sang the gospel, and you did not like it, but if he won souls he was wise. Soul-winners have all their own ways, and if they do but win souls they are wise. I will tell you what is not wise, and will not be thought so at the last, namely to go about the churches doing nothing yourself and railing at all the Lord’s useful servants.” (Spurgeon)


mt28:
19 having gone, then, disciple all the nations, (baptizing them -- to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,

20 teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you,) and lo, I am with you all the days -- till the full end of the age.'

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Thank you. God speaks of catching people in a net (the passage Jesus may have been referencing when he told Peter he would be a fisher of men) comes to mind here. I appreciate your quoting of Spurgeon as a resource.

Jeremiah 16:10-16
“And when you tell this people all these words, and they say to you, ‘Why has the Lord pronounced all this great evil against us? What is our iniquity? What is the sin that we have committed against the Lord our God?’ then you shall say to them: ‘Because your fathers have forsaken me, declares the Lord, and have gone after other gods and have served and worshiped them, and have forsaken me and have not kept my law, and because you have done worse than your fathers, for behold, every one of you follows his stubborn, evil will, refusing to listen to me. Therefore I will hurl you out of this land into a land that neither you nor your fathers have known, and there you shall serve other gods day and night, for I will show you no favor.’ “Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when it shall no longer be said, ‘As the Lord lives who brought up the people of Israel out of the land of Egypt,’ but ‘As the Lord lives who brought up the people of Israel out of the north country and out of all the countries where he had driven them.’ For I will bring them back to their own land that I gave to their fathers. “Behold, I am sending for many fishers, declares the Lord, and they shall catch them. And afterward I will send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain and every hill, and out of the clefts of the rocks.

 

[AustinC]

If it had said, "It is the Spirit who gives faith", this argument would be valid.

Connect that verse with Ephesians 2:4-9.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

It seems you are fighting against God's word.

 

[ad finitum]

Connect that verse with Ephesians 2:4-9.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

It seems you are fighting against God's word.

But that grace comes by faith. This is the same issue in John 6. Some of them did not believe. Without that belief, they cannot come unto Jesus and be made alive in Him.

 

[AustinC]

But that grace comes by faith. This is the same issue in John 6. Some of them did not believe. Without that belief, they cannot come unto Jesus and be made alive in Him.

No grace comes by God.
Faith comes as God's gift.
The gift of faith, given to us by God, enables us to believe that gracious salvation has been given to us.

 

[ad finitum]

...
Faith comes as God's gift.
...

I didn't see where these verses say our faith is given us by God.

 

[ad finitum]

No grace comes by God.
Faith comes as God's gift.
The gift of faith, given to us by God, enables us to believe that gracious salvation has been given to us.

I didn't see in Ephesians 2:4-9 where it says our faith is given us by God. Where does that idea originate?

 

[AustinC]

I didn't see where these verses say our faith is given us by God.

Keep reading it until it sinks in. If you cannot see faith as a gift from God so that we cannot boast, then I cannot help you.

 

[ad finitum]

Keep reading it until it sinks in. If you cannot see faith as a gift from God so that we cannot boast, then I cannot help you.

It doesn't say faith is a gift of God. It says that the process "by grace, saved through faith" is a gift of God as opposed to a process of "by grace saved through works". If faith were a work, then it would be under the category of "saved through works".

 

[Iconoclast]

I didn't see in Ephesians 2:4-9 where it says our faith is given us by God. Where does that idea originate?

Hello AF.

Never in scripture are men said to be saved...Because of faith.
It is always by or through faith. Faith is an instrument that lays hold of Jesus
Saving faith is part of the gift of salvation along with a God given repentance.

 

[AustinC]

It doesn't say faith is a gift of God. It says that the process "by grace, saved through faith" is a gift of God as opposed to a process of "by grace saved through works". If faith were a work, then it would be under the category of "saved through works".

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

"It" refers to both grace and faith being the gift of God.

Why must it be a gift of God?
So that no one may boast.

That means the word of faith theology is a sham and not a gospel at all. It is a lie from hell.

Scripture is clear. Will you accept it or will you twist it to keep your own opinion?

 

[ad finitum]

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

"It" refers to both grace and faith being the gift of God.

Why must it be a gift of God?
So that no one may boast.

That means the word of faith theology is a sham and not a gospel at all. It is a lie from hell.

Scripture is clear. Will you accept it or will you twist it to keep your own opinion?

The prepositional phrase, "through faith" is one thing. It's not two things. Isolating "faith" from its preposition is a species of "removing from context". The prepositional phrase is describing a process component of the gift of God. Ripping that phrase apart in order to claim that the object of the preposition itself is the gift rather that the process described by the phrase, is doing violence to the text. This is not something that should be done.

An argument based upon shredding the text in this way demands of itself to be rejected.

 

[SGO]

The prepositional phrase, "through faith" is one thing. It's not two things. Isolating "faith" from its preposition is a species of "removing from context". The prepositional phrase is describing a process component of the gift of God. Ripping that phrase apart in order to claim that the object of the preposition itself is the gift rather that the process described by the phrase, is doing violence to the text. This is not something that should be done.

An argument based upon shredding the text in this way demands of itself to be rejected.

So then, please provide the solution.

 

[Scott Downey]

Faith is given to us by God, a measure of faith, and it becomes our faith, just like Romans 12 says.

3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

IT just cant get any clearer than that. Why do people fight this?

Acts 3
14 But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15 and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses. 16 And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know.

Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

1 Corinthians 1:30
But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption—

 

[Scott Downey]

God has chosen us.
Glory Only in the Lord
26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.

30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”

 

[Jerome]

Regeneration before faith?
What?

Dr. Timothy George (Reformed Baptist), Theology of the Reformers:
"being placed into Christ (insitio in Christo) occurs in regeneration that, Calvin was careful to point out, follows from faith as its result"



John Calvin, Commentary on Jn 8:32
"Next, we must ascertain what is the method of our deliverance. For so long as we are governed by our sense and by our natural disposition, we are in bondage to sin; but when the Lord regenerates us by his Spirit, he likewise makes us free, so that, loosed from the snares of Satan, we willingly obey righteousness. But regeneration proceeds from faith, and hence it is evident that freedom proceeds from the Gospel."

John Calvin, Commentary on Rom 4:16
"Here, in the first place, the Apostle shows, that nothing is set before faith but mere grace;...grace is not to be taken, as some imagine, for the gift of regeneration"

So too in his Catechism of the Church of Geneva (Q126):
"For when by faith we receive Christ as he is offered to us, he not only promises us deliverance from death and reconciliation with God, but also the gift of the Holy Spirit, by which we are regenerated to newness of life"

 

[AustinC]

The prepositional phrase, "through faith" is one thing. It's not two things. Isolating "faith" from its preposition is a species of "removing from context". The prepositional phrase is describing a process component of the gift of God. Ripping that phrase apart in order to claim that the object of the preposition itself is the gift rather that the process described by the phrase, is doing violence to the text. This is not something that should be done.

An argument based upon shredding the text in this way demands of itself to be rejected.

The text says what it says. Both grace and faith are gifts from God so that neither you nor I can boast about what we did. All glory goes to God who chose to make us alive with Christ and save us by His grace.

 

[AustinC]

God gives the gift of faith. He authors it in our life and he finishes it.

Hebrews 12:1-2

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[ad finitum]

The text says what it says. Both grace and faith are gifts from God so that neither you nor I can boast about what we did. All glory goes to God who chose to make us alive with Christ and save us by His grace.

It has been demonstrated that the text is not ripping itself apart. People are ripping the text apart claim something that isn't in the text.

 

[ad finitum]

Acts 3
14 But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15 and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses. 16 And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know.

Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

The word "comes" is not in the text. Literally, "Yes, the faith which through Him" doesn't support the claim that the faith is a gift.