Zeal for correcting a brother greater than for winning a soul?

[George Antonios]

Help me out here guys.

I read so many spiritual-sounding comments from Calvinists brethren, to the tenor of:

"Oh it's not up to me to convince someone of the gospel, this is all God's work, and I can't be held responsible for a soul perishing in hell because I didn't witness to them because salvation is of God, not men."

And usually you understand that that person is not too zealous about winning souls precisely because they are so spiritual that they leave it all up to God.

But suddenly, when they spot a "heresy" on the forum, they are God's arm of reproof and noble correction, labouring to expose falsehoods and prove their points. Oh, sure, they also couch it in "well I can't convince them only God can" but only after having zealously laboured to convince the other side of their grave error and inferior spirituality.

So my question is about zeal and insistence. Are you as zealous and insistent in witnessing as you are in correcting our heresies? Because in both cases, the whole thing is unchangeably predestinated, yeah?

 

[atpollard]

Pot. Kettle. Black.

 

[George Antonios]

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Zealously quick correction, as per the OP.

 

[atpollard]

Zealously quick correction, as per the OP.

Appropriate for an OP posted as a "zealously quick correction". [1 Peter 5:8]

 

[Revmitchell]

Help me out here guys.

I read so many spiritual-sounding comments from Calvinists brethren, to the tenor of:

"Oh it's not up to me to convince someone of the gospel, this is all God's work, and I can't be held responsible for a soul perishing in hell because I didn't witness to them because salvation is of God, not men."

And usually you understand that that person is not too zealous about winning souls precisely because they are so spiritual that they leave it all up to God.

But suddenly, when they spot a "heresy" on the forum, they are God's arm of reproof and noble correction, labouring to expose falsehoods and prove their points. Oh, sure, they also couch it in "well I can't convince them only God can" but only after having zealously laboured to convince the other side of their grave error and inferior spirituality.

So my question is about zeal and insistence. Are you as zealous and insistent in witnessing as you are in correcting our heresies? Because in both cases, the whole thing is unchangeably predestinated, yeah?

Yep and you have the calvie walsh I think his name is going around preaching in churches that the sinners prayer has done more to send people to hell than anything else.

They feign concern about being evangelistic but in practice, due to their theology, they are not.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yep and you have the calvie walsh I think his name is going around preaching in churches that the sinners prayer has done more to send people to hell than anything else.

They feign concern about being evangelistic but in practice, due to their theology, they are not.

Spurgeon and Whitefield disagree with you about not being "soul winners"

 

[Revmitchell]

Spurgeon and Whitefield disagree with you about not being "soul winners"

Well if they were alive they could be used as an example of it. But when someone says things like was quoted in the op then they are an example of just the opposite

 

[George Antonios]

Appropriate for an OP posted as a "zealously quick correction". [1 Peter 5:8]

But I'm not a Calvinist claiming the things listed in the OP.

 

[atpollard]

But I'm not a Calvinist claiming the things listed in the OP.

Nope, your not.
You are a non-Calvinist doing the things the OP accuses Calvinists of doing.

 

[Iconoclast]

Help me out here guys.

I read so many spiritual-sounding comments from Calvinists brethren, to the tenor of:

"Oh it's not up to me to convince someone of the gospel, this is all God's work, and I can't be held responsible for a soul perishing in hell because I didn't witness to them because salvation is of God, not men."

And usually you understand that that person is not too zealous about winning souls precisely because they are so spiritual that they leave it all up to God.

But suddenly, when they spot a "heresy" on the forum, they are God's arm of reproof and noble correction, labouring to expose falsehoods and prove their points. Oh, sure, they also couch it in "well I can't convince them only God can" but only after having zealously laboured to convince the other side of their grave error and inferior spirituality.

So my question is about zeal and insistence. Are you as zealous and insistent in witnessing as you are in correcting our heresies? Because in both cases, the whole thing is unchangeably predestinated, yeah?

I have never heard a biblically educated Calvinist make any such statement...not once, and I have attended about 45-50 churches, and about 25 bible conferences.
Calvinists know God ordained the ways and means to effectually draw the elect .

 

[George Antonios]

Nope, your not.
You are a non-Calvinist doing the things the OP accuses Calvinists of doing.

The OP was about consistency in one's position.

 

[Dave G]

For the benefit of the reader,
These will be my only replies in this thread.

Help me out here guys.

I read so many spiritual-sounding comments from Calvinists brethren, to the tenor of:

"Oh it's not up to me to convince someone of the gospel, this is all God's work, and I can't be held responsible for a soul perishing in hell because I didn't witness to them because salvation is of God, not men."

Speaking for myself, George, I have to wonder at your purpose for creating this thread.
It seems to me that you view those that you call "Calvinists" as not being devoted to the Lord of all the earth because of their acknowledgement that salvation is completely His domain to sit over.

I'm sorry to say, but I cannot not agree less.
Please allow me to explain in the next set of posts.

 

[Dave G]

To answer the comment in quotes, "Oh it's not up to me to convince someone of the gospel, this is all God's work, and I can't be held responsible for a soul perishing in hell because I didn't witness to them because salvation is of God, not men."...

1) I believe that it is not up to me to convince someone of the truth of the Gospel.
It is up to the Lord to do such things.
While I may feel like trying, I know that the actual results are not mine to preside over.

Paul knew this, as did all of His apostles.
"Calvinists" ( at least many of them ) simply preach the word and let the Lord use it to call His people to them.
2) Despite some who look at Ezekiel 3 and Ezekiel 33 and use those passages ( as I was taught growing up ) as leverage to put the fear of God into someone who does not warn their neighbor from their evil ways by sharing the Gospel with them, those you call "Calvinists" recognize that those same "watchman" passages were spoken to the Lord's prophets over Israel...
Holding them accountable for warning Israel to repent and return to the terms of the covenant that they had agreed to obey.

3) Since salvation is of the Lord, I cannot, as His child, be held one bit responsible for that which is God's privilege and purpose...
To save a people for Himself, and to reserve the unjust for punishment.
To do so would be to try and interfere with His judgment and discretion to show mercy and compassion on whom He will...not on whom we will.

If He sends me to preach the Gospel, then off I go and I am responsible for what He tells me to do and where He tells me to go.
The results are left entirely up to Him.

4) Witnessing to other people and them being convinced of the truth of Scripture and of their need of a Saviour, is, again, God's realm, not mine.
Me preaching or not preaching will have absolutely no impact on the outcome of who "gets saved" and who does not.

His children were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ), and the names were written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world ( Revelation 17:8 ).
Christ will only give eternal life to as many as He has been given by the Father ( John 17:2 ), so I have nothing to be concerned about, in the long run.

Incidentally, that's faith in God's power and His purposes, not "fatalism".

 

[Dave G]

5) God sends His preachers where His people are.
To me, this is evidenced in Romans 10:14-15 where it clearly says that a preacher is sent...
They don't "send themselves", trusting in chance and man's obstinate will for the results.

Paul was sent, by God, in the book of Acts.
He went where God sent him by the direction of the Holy Ghost...he didn't just "wing it".
Note that Paul and Barnabas were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to go into Asia ( Minor )...even though people there were undoubtedly dying every day ( Acts of the Apostles 16:6-7 ).
Also note that the Lord specifically told Paul not to be afraid of preaching at Corinth, because God told him that He had "much people" in that city ( Acts of the Apostles 18:10-11 )..so Paul stayed and preached and taught for over a year.

6) Not everyone is gifted or sent as a preacher.
According to Ephesians 4:11-16, God is the one who gives apostles, preachers, teachers, evangelists, pastors and so forth to the body, for the express purpose of gathering, instructing and assisting in the growth of all of His children in the body.

Again, I see no "chance" in the entire process of one of His dear children either being saved, made aware of their inheritance, nor in growing in both grace and knowledge...
His servants obey Him, feed and water the sheep, and God gives the increase ( 1 Corinthians 3:6 ).

7) Zeal for God is not the most important thing in the body of Christ.
Rather, zeal for God according to knowledge, is.

That the "Calvinist" looks at salvation, knowing and believing that it is all God's work, start to finish, in reality causes them to relax and rest in the Lord's efforts to use His choice of men for His own purposes, instead of us going off like loose cannons on deck and doing whatever we want, hoping that God will honor our own well-meant efforts.

In other words, it is God that works in and through believers as the recipients of His gifts, to both will and to do of His good pleasure ( Philippians 2:13 ).
Again, nothing is left up to "chance" if it is God working in His preachers and evangelists towards His own outcome.

The "Calvinistic" preacher understands that their own personal zeal should be tempered and guided by their understanding of both the purpose of preaching the Gospel and its intended results.

 

[Dave G]

And usually you understand that that person is not too zealous about winning souls precisely because they are so spiritual that they leave it all up to God.

Correction on doctrine is not a matter of spirituality, George,
and neither is leaving salvation up to the Lord as His right to determine.

The first is a matter of genuine concern and care about a fellow professing believer being in error, and those errors being taught to others.
If you're reading prideful motives into it, I cannot help that.

Also, the very real probability exists that there are people on the "Reformed" side of things that see themselves as "superior", "highly enlightened" and "more spiritual" than others of their professing brethren;
I do not, and never will.

Being mindful of where I was before I believed on Him,
that sort of attitude should be the furthest from my mind.

The second has nothing to do with spirituality either.
It's about trusting the Lord and His purposes over my own wishes.

But suddenly, when they spot a "heresy" on the forum, they are God's arm of reproof and noble correction, labouring to expose falsehoods and prove their points.

To me, that's only natural in the light of 2 Timothy 2:24-26, Titus 2:1 and Jude 1:3.
Being obedient to God's word can be difficult, but my question to you is, is there something wrong with trying to correct fellow Christians that we believe are in error?

Honestly, I see nothing at all wrong with it,
and it is entirely in keeping with God's word and what is expected of His servants, to attempt to do so.

But, I also concede that it seems to work better in theory than it does in practice.

 

[Dave G]

Oh, sure, they also couch it in "well I can't convince them only God can" but only after having zealously laboured to convince the other side of their grave error and inferior spirituality.

I think that you may be reading your own perception of the situation into the process...
But it's also possible that you are not, as I cannot speak for everyone who agrees with "TULIP" that I may meet.

To me, "inferior spirituality" shouldn't even creep into the discussion at all,
since all of God's children are precious to Him, no matter their stage of spiritual growth.
Sinful pride, as you know, stinks to high Heaven in the site of the Lord and nobody in the body of Christ has any business treating one another badly or exhibiting an ounce of it;
Especially regarding who they are in Christ and how they were put there.

But to address the probability that many of those who engage in discussions like this may be at fault,
the fact that we as Christians treat one another unfairly and badly actually happened in places like Corinth;
They led one another astray with false doctrines ( that the resurrection was past ), bit and devoured one another, and even took each other to court.

One even took his father's wife and had her.

But that doesn't make such behavior God-honoring and obedient...
Does it?

No, it does not.

 

[Dave G]

So my question is about zeal and insistence. Are you as zealous and insistent in witnessing as you are in correcting our heresies?

I believe that I've answered that above, George.
But to develop it further, being zealous about doctrine within the churches is, in my opinion, completely unrelated to being zealous about "witnessing Christ" ( 1 Peter 3:15 ) or about preaching the Gospel to those who have not believed.

I hold that what motivates Christians to be zealous for correct doctrine in no way should be attached to their motives for spreading the Gospel.
One is work on the inside of the professing church, and one is work on the outside.

The difference I think that you're seeing,
is in those who believe that salvation is left up to men, versus those who believe that salvation is left up to God alone.

Looking at it objectively,
I see that those who believe that man's decision makes all the difference, are going to see more of an urgency in presenting the Gospel to everyone that they meet;

While those who believe that God's decision alone makes all the difference,
are going to be far less urgent and far more trusting of the Lord for those results.

 

[Dave G]

Because in both cases, the whole thing is unchangeably predestinated, yeah?

I agree, to an extent...
and to me, that is where passages like Proverbs 13:10, Proverbs 15:1, Proverbs 17:14, Proverbs 20:3, and even ( sadly ) Titus 3:9-11 come in.

I figure that if both sides simply stopped answering each other's opposing questions and posts ( like what has started this thread ),
or simply learned how to discuss things in a civil manner without tossing out insults,
then there would be a lot less fighting and personal offenses going around on all sides.

Speaking for myself,
I know full well that unless God causes someone to see the truth of Ephesians 1:4-5, for example, my best efforts will do no good.
But again and as in other threads,
if someone asks me why I believe what I do, I sometimes feel the desire to simply answer them based on my own understanding of the Scriptures.
I'm even willing to go into great detail about it, if only to be of some help in some small way.

Finally,
I also know that there are others who watch these exchanges and who never post...
They sit back as guests and take note of the questions and answers, as well as the Scriptures that are put forth in support of or in refutation of them...and it is to them that I quite often make appeal;

The silent majority who never post and who simply read through the ones on this board,
because they found themselves drawn here for some inexplicable reason.



That said,
I extend my apologies to you for such a lengthy set of replies and I wish you well, as always.

 

[Scott Downey]

People actually get saved by the doctrines of grace where God is in control.
Scripture clearly says, the mind of those who do not believe, who are perishing, (the unsaved) is blinded to the gospel by the 'god of the world' (satan), lest the light of the gospel should shine on them.

Right here is excellent proof of 'Calvinism', that the reason you believe is God's love and grace towards you, not of yourself. Devil certainly will not un-blind your mind.

They are blinded, which is why they can not and do not believe. It is not they do not believe so they are then blinded. People are all naturally born slaves of sin and Satan and like him are of the world which wisdom is devilish.

2 Corinthians 4
Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.

3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake.

6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Christ tells us so that to plunder the strong man's house, you first have to bind him.
So devil is strong man, his goods, those held captive that God plans to free from devil's control and take them captive to Him instead. 'Cast out demons' shows they are bound to devil's will, verse 6 in above scripture tells us God has shone in our hearts, this is the same as saying when God choses to reveal Christ in us, as Paul described his own conversion from being bound by the devil..

Matthew 12:28-30
New King James Version
28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 Or how can one enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. 30 He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.

 

[AustinC]

The idea that I am "winning" souls for Jesus is a reprehensible thought to me. The entire thought is filled with self-pride and self-righteousness.

By my actions, I, myself, am winning a contest. I am the leader and I will get the prize from the host for being a winner.

It treats God as though He is a game show host who is urging on contestants to win the contest through their own works.

Not one place in scripture expresses such a method of redemption.

We are called to preach reconciliation and share this creed with others:

1 Corinthians 15:3-8

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.

God will make those whom He has chosen alive with Christ as He determines.

Evangelism is not a game show contest. It is a commission from God, to His servants, to share what is of first importance and then move on. God will save those who are His sheep, who hear HIS voice and believe. I am not "winning" anyone. I am just doing the simple task of telling people that which is of first importance. It is humbling not prideful.

Therefore, let us throw out this abominable, prideful, talk of "winning" souls. It is a self-righteous, prideful, mindset that lifts up the servant above the Master. May God forbid.