Charles spurgeon on roman catholicism: “a vast mountain of rubbish covering the truth

[BobRyan]

I have taken the liberty of removing from Walter's list - that which he himself refuses to defend against the church of many scholars today that Barnabas and the letter of Ignatias are fakes and forgeries.

Now let us see what we have left.

Ireneus, Bishop of Lyons, disciple of Polycarp says, “On the Lord’s Day, every one of us Christians keep the Sabbath.”

Justin Martyr in about A.D. 140 says, “But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because Jesus Christ, our Savior, on the same day rose again from the dead.”


Theopolis in A.D. 167 says, “Both custom and reason challenge from us that we should honor the Lord’s Day, seeing it was that day, our Lord Jesus Christ, completed the resurrection from the dead.”


Dionysius in A.D. 170 says, “We passed this holy Lord’s Day in which we read your letter, from the constant reading of which we shall be able to draw admonition.”


Dynidions in A.D. 170 says, “We Celebrate only the Lord’s Day.”


Bardesanes in A.D. 180 says, “On one day, the first day of the week, we assemble ourselves together.”


Clement in A.D. 192 says that a Christian “According to the commandment of the gospel, observes the Lord’s Day, thereby glorifying the resurrection.”


Clement of Alexandria says in A.D. 194, “He, in fulfillment of the precept, according to the gospel, keeps the Lord’s Day, glorifying the Lord’s resurrection in himself.”

Tertullian in A.D. 200 says, “We solemnize the day after Saturday in contradiction to those who call this day their Sabbath.”


Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage in A.D. 250 says, “The eighth day, that is, the first day after the Sabbath, is the Lord’s Day.”


The Apostolical Constitution says in A.D. 250, “On the day of our Lord’s resurrection, which is the Lord’s day, meet more diligently.”


Anatolius in about A.D. 270 says, “The solemn festival of the resurrection of the Lord can only be celebrated on the Lord’s Day.”


Anatolius Bishop of Laodicea in Asia Minor in A.D. 270 says, “Our regard for the Lord’s resurrection which took place on the Lord’s Day will lead us to celebrate it.”


Victorinus in A.D. 300 says, “On the former day we are accustomed to fast rigorously that on the Lord’s Day we may go forth to our brad with giving of thanks, lest we should appear to observe any other Sabbath with the Jewish, which Sabbath He in His body abolished[/U].”


Peter, Bishop of Alexanderia in A.D. 306 says, “But the Lord’s Day we celebrate as a day of joy because on it he rose again.”

Certainly Walter makes a good case in the list above for the fact that by the middle to late 2nd century AD - the "traditions of man" were already being placed in the stead of the Sabbath sanctified by God in Gen 2:3 and Spoken by God at Sinai.

Yet notice how "distinctly" they make the claim that Sunday is the Lord's Day -- and that each weekly Sunday is to be celebrated in honor of Christ's resurrection. THIS is the kind of language that you use when you are trying to introduce something like a holy day. "Rember the Sabbath day to KEEP IT HOLY.. God blessed the Seventh-day and Made IT Holy" -- and so the man-made tradition above appeals to very much the same language for Sunday.

How deafening the silence of SCRIPTURE by contrast to the actions of man when man-made tradition is trying to establish its own sanctified day of worship.


No Wonder Christ said in Mark 7 --

7 " BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'
8 ""Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.''
9 He was also saying to them, ""You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
10 ""For Moses said, " HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER'; and, " HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH';
11 but you say, "If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),'
12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.''

And this begs the question of how it is that error could have come into the Christian church by so soon a time as the middle of the 2nd century A.D. -

ERRORs of the form of falsehoods and forgeries claiming to be of Barnabas and Ignatius.

Errors of the form that would begin to delete the Command of God and replace it with the traditions of man - in regard to one of the Ten Commandments.

Well - what does Paul predict in regard to error coming in??

Acts 20
28 ""Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
29 ""I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.


Paul warns the saints in Gal 1 "Though WE or an angel from heaven should come to you with a different gospel...let him be accursed".

Paul tells Timothy to remain in Ephesus (1Tim 1) for the express purpose of suppressing error trying to raise itself up in that church at that very time.



John the Beloved in A.D. 96 says, “I was in the spirit on the Lord’s Day.” – Rev. 1:10 -- makes no mention at all of "week day one" being the "Lord's day"


Luke in about A.D. 60 says, “And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them.” – Acts 20:7 -- points to a one time meeting on Saturday evening called for the purpose of a farewell sermon with a full day of Sunday-travel planned for the next morning.

(And this after already stating in vs 5 and 6 that Paul would NOT travel on holy days - such as the Lev 23 annual Sabbaths).

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

Certainly Walter makes a good case in the list above for the fact that by the middle to late 2nd century AD - the "traditions of man" were already being placed in the stead of the Sabbath sanctified by God in Gen 2:3 and Spoken by God at Sinai.

Bob PRESUMES his position is correct and ASSUMES that that all these quotations in the second century are "traditions of men." However it is both this PRESUMPTION and ASSUMPTION that is being challenged!

Yet notice how "distinctly" they make the claim that Sunday is the Lord's Day -- and that each weekly Sunday is to be celebrated in honor of Christ's resurrection. THIS is the kind of language that you use when you are trying to introduce something like a holy day.

Bob's hypocrisy is glaring. First he and all SDA advocates argued that Constantine was the first to change the Sabbath to Sunday! However, when that perversion of history is exposed, then they simply reset their peg to the Second century and make the same vain invalid claim.

What Bob failed to recognize is that these distinct claims that Sunday is the Lord's day is not set in contrast to other Christians observing Saturday but it is set in contrast to the JEWISH observance as the Jews were still the primary enemies of Christians apart from religious Rome.

Victorinus in A.D. 300 says, “On the former day we are accustomed to fast rigorously that on the Lord’s Day we may go forth to our bread with giving of thanks, lest we should appear to observe any other Sabbath with the Jewish, which Sabbath He in His body abolished[/U].”

No Wonder Christ said in Mark 7 Acts 20[/FONT][/SIZE]
28

All these texts beg the question as none of these texts deal directly with the Sabbath issue and is just more PRESUMED rhetoric by Bob.

John the Beloved in A.D. 96 says, “I was in the spirit on the Lord’s Day.” – Rev. 1:10 -- makes no mention at all of "week day one" being the "Lord's day"

More hypocrisy by Bob. He knows fully well that the Greek term "kuriakos" in this kind of context was universally recognzied as Sunday in the Roman Empire! Paul uses it in a religious observance context in 1 Cor. 11:20 as it was a universally recognized term in the Roman Empire for the religious observances in the worship of Ceasar as the god/man.

Luke in about A.D. 60 says, “And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them.".......(And this after already stating in vs 5 and 6 that Paul would NOT travel on holy days - such as the Lev 23 annual Sabbaths).

First the Greek preposition "en" translated "upon" restricts the time frame to be within the first day of the Week. It is this day that was set apart for gathering together to break bread and for preaching.

If Bob's theory was correct, then they would have identified the time frame within "en" the seventh day of the week for such designated worship activities as coming together to break bread and for preaching.

The very words "when the disciples came together" demonstrates such assembling was not on the Seventh day but on the new Sabbath day - Sunday - "en" in which they regularly assembled for worship activitives such as breaking bread and for preaching of the word.

They ate at home and would not gather together as an assembly to break bread or to hear preaching on any other day but the day of worship - The Lord's Day - The first day of the week.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob PRESUMES his position is correct and ASSUMES that that all these quotations in the second century are "traditions of men." However it is both this PRESUMPTION and ASSUMPTION that is being challenged!



Bob's hypocrisy is glaring. First he and all SDA advocates argued that Constantine was the first to change the Sabbath to Sunday!

Works better if you "quote me" when trying to "Accuse me". Of course empty accusations seem to be your preferred method so far ... so you may not go for the idea of actually having a quote of me saying something that you want to claim I am saying.

I realize this idea gets in the way of your non-stop ranting and ad hominem - but at some point you need to think about appealing to the objective unbiased Bible student instead of all playing to your imagined "yes men".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Never said you could! What I pointed out is God could and did in Leviticus 23. Proof that the Sabbath law was not restricted by God to any day "of the week"

Hint - in the actual Bible there is not "one Sabbath law" - there is the Ex 20:8-11 law regarding THE Seventh day -- as in "Tomorrow is THE sabbath" and there are other laws mentioned in Lev 23 that are very specific to very specific days selected by God.

This is not the "ONE law for as many days as you might like to imagine" system you seem to offer up in fiction.

In each of the cases whether it is an ANNUAL Sabbath or the WEEKLY Sabbath - a very specific context and reason and TIME is given for EACH.

No mixing and matching as you please.

God alone blesses, sanctifies and establishes these Sabbaths.

In the case of the Seventh-day Sabbath memorial of creation we have GOD saying --

1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts.
2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Ex 16
23 then he said to them, ""This is what the LORD meant: Tomorrow is the Sabbath observance, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. Bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over put aside to be kept until morning.''
24 So they put it aside until morning, as Moses had ordered, and it did not become foul nor was there any worm in it.
25 Moses said, ""Eat it today, for today is a Sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field.
26 "" Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.''
27 It came about on the seventh day that some of the people went out to gather, but they found none.

28 Then the LORD said to Moses, "" How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My instructions?



Ex 20
8 ""Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 "" Sixdays you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
11 "" For in six days the LORD made theheavens and the earth, the sea and allthat is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Works better if you "quote me" when trying to "Accuse me". Of course empty accusations seem to be your preferred method so far ... so you may not go for the idea of actually having a quote of me saying something that you want to claim I am saying.

I realize this idea gets in the way of your non-stop ranting and ad hominem - but at some point you need to think about appealing to the objective unbiased Bible student instead of all playing to your imagined "yes men".

in Christ,

Bob

I did quote you and your words were "traditions of men" in regard to these 2nd century quotations and they are your PRESUMPTIONS without evidence!

 

[Dr. Walter]

There is only ONE Sabbath law and that is the fourth commandment however, there are more than one reasons for observing it as Creation is altogether omitted from Deuteronomy.

It is this ONE Sabbath law or fourth commandment that is given more than ONE reason for observing it, which is the basis for all Sabbath applications in Levitucus 23 and 25 or anywhere else in the Old Testament.

You are the one trying to dice and splice what God presents as ONE COMMANDMENT with various applications.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I promised Dr Walter an answer: Here's a little of it:



Mark 16:9, the meaning of the time-phrase, ‘proh-i prohtehi tou sabbatou’

As an example of the universally accepted interpretation, I propose “Die Wuppertaler Studienbibel”, which is said, “besitzt keine Parallele”, “Als Er aber auferstanden war, in der Frühe am ersten Tage nach dem Sabbat, erschien Er zuerst der Maria aus Magdala… Sie ging hin und verkündete…”

“While then having risen / having been raised though, in the morning on the First Day after the Sabbath, He appeared to Mary Magdalene… She went and told…”. (Quoted from F. Rienecker, ‘Das Evangelium des Markus’.)

Rienecker comments, “…der erste Mensch, dem der Auerstandene begegnet…” Note that the whole story concerns Jesus’ first APPEARANCE : “on the First Day of the week” – that naturally followed “AFTER the Sabbath”; it is NO account of Jesus’ resurrection!

The commentaries I have read don’t pay any attention to the idea that the Adverbial time-phrase ‘proh-i prohtehi tou sabbatou’ could (or should, according to Dr Walter) mean “the "first Sabbath in a new series of Sabbaths"”. The day Jesus appeared on undoubtedly is the ‘week-day’ “after the (weekly) Sabbath” as Wuppertaler explains it. As I have said, it has never before been questioned that ‘prohtehi tou sabbatou’ is the First Day : “OF THE WEEK”. Dr Walter’s idea is a novelty of his own invention— with the view to his private Sunday-propaganda agenda.

I have not mentioned the futility of Dr Walter’s attempts due to the most basic fact of all, that Mark 16:9 in no way whatsoever, states that Jesus ‘ROSE’ from the dead ‘proh-i prohtehi tou sabbatou’. What’s the use for Dr Walter’s Sunday-Resurrection promotion by the supposition ‘proh-i prohtehi tou sabbatou’ means “the "first Sabbath in a new series of Sabbaths"” IF THERE IS NO ‘RESURRECTION’ found in the text? The resurrection as historical actuality “on the First Day” or of the First Day, is alleged in 16:9 in only bad commentaries written by bad connoisseurs. The historical event “on the First Day” and of the First Day in Mark 16:9, whether “on the first day” or of the first day “"in a new series of Sabbaths"” or not, was, “he APPEARED”— NOT, ‘he rose’!

Although I believe Mark’s ‘second ending’ is ‘canon’, it is impossible to deny it has been ‘added’. The fact the second ending was not ‘original’ but was added later, explains its omission in some manuscripts. It also explains the different “vocabulary, style and subject-matter of the section” (Vincent Taylor). YET, no one before Dr Walter has come up with what he has conjured.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

There are more, ‘endings’ to Mark. There are variants of the ‘recognised’ second ending. They all, are later. They, all are more predisposed. They all are from the age of predominant Sunday-observance. Yet they all, do not mention that Jesus rose; or the day that He would have raised on— or that He rose ‘on the first day “"in a new series of Sabbaths"”. Why? Because it would have been most absurd. But after two millennia of ‘text criticism’, Dr Walters discovers, that is, what Mark 16:9 means, specifically in connection with the word ‘prohehi’-‘prohton’ which “is a common Markan word” (Taylor). So would ‘prohtos’ be.

‘Prohtos’, “first”, says Dr Walter, in Mark 16:9, means ““the "first Sabbath in a new series of Sabbaths"”. But Dr Walter ignores the morphology, “the form and structure of words in a language, especially the consistent patterns of inflection, combination, derivation and change etc. that may be observed and classified. (Collins) Dr Walter maintains regardless, Mark 16:9 declares Jesus rose from the dead on “the "first Sabbath in a new series of Sabbaths"”, but while “first”, ‘prohtos’ is in the Dative Case “sabbath”, ‘sabbaton’, should also have been in the Dative Case, like this, ‘prohtehi sabbatohi’, which of course is not the case.

Even were Dr Walter right, “the "first Sabbath in a new series of Sabbaths"” would have meant the first “Sabbath” in a new series of Sabbaths— the first LAST day or first SEVENTH day, “in a new series of Sabbaths” or LAST or SEVENTH days. Or ‘the most important’ “in a new series of Sabbaths” or LAST or SEVENTH days; the First Day of the week never would have come in the picture; only the Sabbath or the last or Seventh Day : OF THE WEEK, would have featured.

So, Dr Walter’s idea is simply too absurd, and too fantastic for scholars to ever give thought.

Never forget, Mark doesn’t speak of the Resurrection at all, which makes Dr Walter’s interpretation that Jesus ROSE from the dead “the "first Sabbath in a new series of Sabbaths"”, even more ludicrous.

That brings us to the term, ‘sabbatou’, which Dr Walter maintains, “… = singular and only used of the fourth commandment Sabbath” …and thus never means ‘of the week’…?

Claimed Dr Walter,
“Mark 16:2 gives the normal reading for the "first day of the week" but the change in verse 9 is intentional. "Mia" is simply the regular ordinal number "first" but "prote" refers to the first in a series. Sabbaton is the regular term used for the day following the Jewish Sabbath when used with "mia" but "Sabbatou" is the normal term used for the fourth commandment Sabbath. Hence, Jesus arose "proii" early between 3am to 6am on the "first Sabbath of a new series" identified in verse 2 as the "first day of the week."”

… “but "Sabbatou" is the normal term used for the fourth commandment Sabbath”? That’s strange, isn’t it?!
“Jesus … on the "first Sabbath of a new series" … arose "proii" early” which is directly Mark 16:9 supposed to be, at least according to Dr Walter— “the "first Sabbath of a new series" identified in verse 2 as the "first day of the week…"” but… … “but "Sabbatou" is the normal term used for the fourth commandment Sabbath”— the Seventh Day? The Seventh Day— ‘of the week’? If that, is not self-contradictory, I wonder what is.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

O yes, now I remember, Dr Walter said, ‘the Seventh Day’, but NEVER the Seventh Day ‘OF THE WEEK’!
“…nowhere in God's Word did he ever say that the Sabbath was the seventh day "OF THE WEEK." He would never say that because if He had said that then he would have changed because he applied the Sabbath to the 1st, 7th, 8th, 10th, 14th, 15th, 21st, 22nd and 28th days of the month in Levitucs 23 as well as the 50th day after 7 regular sabbaths, 7th YEAR and 50th YEAR. Hence, the principle is merely one sabbath after six non-sabbaths!
The "first day of the week" is the New covenant Sabbath and it too is one Sabbath after six non-sabbaths.”

“Spurgeon, Moody and Pink interpreted the fourth commandment just as I do. They rejected the idea that it referred to the seventh day "of the week" and rejected the Jewish observation on the seventh day "of the week." Instead they saw it as the seventh day after six working days irregardless of what day "of the week" it might or might not fall on.

Spurgeon: “expressly one whole day in seven, to be a holy Sabbath to himself (Le 19:30 De 5:12)."

However, they all agreed that the Old Testament predicted and the New Testament established it on the first day "of the week" for Christians under the New Covenant and rejected the Jewish observation.”

GE:
Dr Walter’s BASIC idea is, every one and all of “the ceremonial feasts sabbaths” of the “laws”, WERE, “the Seventh Day Sabbath”— quote: Emphasis GE: “Saturdayism dishonors the Glory of God, repudiates the grace of God and despises the Person and works of Jesus Christ and perverts the Word of God. Seventh dayism brings the soul back under the bondage of the Old Covenant as it is the sign of the Old Covenant:“But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'You shall surely observe My Sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations.” Ex. 31:13; Ezek. 20:12, 19-21. and thus belongs to the Law covenant which God has abolished (Col. 2:14-16).”

Quote: “… he arose on "THE FIRST DAY SABBATH" and that is … pictured in the ceremonial feasts sabbaths (Lev. 23) and predicted by David in Psalm 118:20-24 with Acts 4:10-11; 13:33).”

Quote: “The Sabbath of the Jew is to him a task; the Lord's Day of the Christian, the first day of the week, is to him a joy, a day of rest, of peace, and of thanksgiving. ………….. Spurgeon, Moody and Pink interpreted the fourth commandment just as I do. They rejected the idea that it referred to the seventh day "of the week" and rejected the Jewish observation on the seventh day "of the week." Instead they saw it as the seventh day after six working days irregardless of what day "of the week" it might or might not fall on. Spurgeon: "expressly one whole day in seven to be a holy Sabbath to himself (Le 19:30 De 5:12)." However, they all agreed that the Old Testament predicted and the New Testament established it on the first day "of the week" for Christians under the New Covenant and rejected the Jewish observation.”

More BLATANT, my eyes, have never, read.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

All ‘sabbaths’ in the Old Testament Scriptures – in “Leviticus 23” in particular and elsewhere – according to Dr Walter, ALWAYS OCCURRED ON the Seventh Day Sabbath ‘of the week’— today’s “Saturday”! Quote: “BobRyan: “Rather Lev 23 points out that GOD ALONE can determine what day is Holy.” Dr Walter: “Oh no you don't! Not "holy" but "SABBATH REST" days! These days were SABBATHS not just "holy."”.

The Seventh Day Sabbath ‘of the week’ – today’s, “Saturday” – REGARDLESS DISTINCTION in the Old Testament Scriptures between it and ‘ceremonial sabbaths’, LIKE ALL “"SABBATH REST" days”, THEN, fell on the ‘seventh day’, a “sabbath”, whereby “the Old Testament predicted and the New Testament pictured”:— quote, “the Lord’s day sabbath … a holy Sabbath … established … on the first day "of the week" for Christians under the New Covenant”. (Emphasis GE.) The Scriptures “Old Testament” and “New Testament”, both as one, according to Dr Walter, “rejected the idea that it (“the Lord’s day sabbath”,) referred to the seventh day "of the week" and rejected the Jewish observation on the seventh day "of the week"”.

Dr Walter avers nothing distinguished any ‘sabbath-day’ so that it could be a ‘ceremonial sabbath’ because it did not regularly fall on the “seventh day sabbath”— ‘of the week’. Even though according to Dr Walter, “sabbath” without exception meant “the seventh day”, it did not mean, quote,
“the seventh day "of the week"!”.
It meant, quote,
“not the seventh day "of the week"! but the seventh day after six working days!”;
“expressly one whole day in seven to be a holy Sabbath to himself”;
“the Sabbath law was not restricted by God to any day "of the week"”;
“the seventh day after six working days irregardless of what day "of the week" it might or might not fall on”;
“God never changed and never needed to change because nowhere in God's Word did he ever say that the Sabbath was the seventh day "OF THE WEEK"”!

So, according to Dr Walter – five times in this short discussion – “Sabbath” is “not the seventh day "of the week"! but the seventh day after six working days!”.

But, says the LORD,
“I will rain bread … and the people shall gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in MY LAW, or no. It shall come to pass that on the Sixth Day they shall prepare that which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily. … THIS SHALL BE (LAW), WHEN the LORD shall give you … bread (8) … the thing which the LORD commanded (16) … And the Children of Israel did so. … And it came to pass that on the Sixth Day (according to God’s Law), they gathered twice as much bread. … And Moses said unto them, This is that (Law) which the LORD HATH SAID, tomorrow SHALL BE THE REST OF THE HOLY SABBATH, SABBATH UNTO THE LORD : Bake which ye will bake … and that which remaineth over, lay up … until tomorrow. And they laid it up till the next day. … And Moses said, Eat that TODAY, FOR TODAY IS THE SABBATH UNTO THE LORD … THE SEVENTH DAY WHICH IS, THE SABBATH!” Exodus 16.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

God, with “commandment”, “gave”, his, “Sabbath, Day”, with one day’s – “the Sixth Day’s” – notification; which HE, in advance and irrespective and regardless of man’s activities or choice of “working days”-behind, “willed”, before! …
“(29) See, for the LORD hath given you the Sabbath : THEREFORE He giveth you the Sixth Day … they shall PREPARE (5) … Let no man go out on THE SEVENTH DAY. SO, the people rested on the Seventh Day.”

God’s predestinating will and providence determined “the Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD”; not man’s retrospective overview of his own “working days”.

“Six days ye SHALL (henceforth) gather bread; but on the Seventh Day which is the Sabbath … unto the LORD … there shall …” BY THE LORD’S DOING “… be none”. (25,26)

God, while He “gave” “the Sixth Day” and “the Seventh Day”, NAMED “the Sixth Day” and “the Seventh Day”. God at once instituted ‘the week’, explaining by word-symbol or idiom of the “Rest Day” - “Sabbath Day” the ‘seven-days-cycle’ that HE, uniquely LIMITED in Divine Revelation by the otherwise inexplicable phenomenon of “the Seventh Day Sabbath”.

The great Charles Spurgeon in
“50 Q What is required in the fourth commandment? … The fourth commandment requires the keeping holy to God such set times as he has appointed in his Word, expressly one whole day in seven, to be a holy Sabbath to himself (Le 19:30 De 5:12)” clearly means, the word “himself” is God, “himself”.

Now what Dr Walter did with this teaching of Spurgeon’s, read!
“Spurgeon, Moody and Pink interpreted the fourth commandment just as I do. They rejected the idea that it referred to the seventh day "of the week" and rejected the Jewish observation on the seventh day "of the week." Instead they saw it as the seventh day after six working days irregardless of what day "of the week" it might or might not fall on.
Spurgeon: "expressly one whole day in seven, to be a holy Sabbath to himself (Le 19:30 De 5:12)"”… “to himself ”— to MAN, Dr Walter speaking of “the seventh day after six working days” OF MAN’S “working”! Dr Walter! … “the Sabbath law was not restricted by God to any day "of the week"” … “God never changed and never needed to change because nowhere in God's Word did he ever say that the Sabbath was the seventh day "OF THE WEEK"”!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

But as the Book Dr Walter seven times without a word from, refers to, “Leviticus 23”, expressly DIFFERENTIATES between ‘The Sabbath’ and ‘sabbaths’,

Introductory remark, verse 2:
“Speak unto the children of Israel … the feasts of the LORD which ye shall proclaim holy CONVOCATIONS (or days of congregation), these, MY feasts”—

First of all, verse 3:
“Six days shall work be done (by you): but THE SEVENTH DAY (by name) is The-Sabbath-of-Rest” (by NAME! “The-Sabbath-of-Rest”, God’s, “Rest”! The “work” of “six days”, is man’s work; the “Rest” of The-Seventh-Day-Sabbath-of-Rest, is God’s Rest.) “The-Sabbath-of-Rest, an holy CONVOCATION (or day of Congregation); ye shall do no work therein: it is The-Sabbath-of-the-LORD in all your houses (in all the world in all times.)”

Again, man’s ‘rest’ is a doing nothing, whereas the “Rest” is “of the LORD”— “the LORD’S”, and greatly to be praised because the “Rest” is his, obtained in victory, through “the exceeding greatness of his power which God worked” to “finish all the works of God”! (Promise of Jesus’ resurrection.)

Then, subsequent and subordinate, verse 4:
“THESE, are the feasts of the LORD,
also holy convocations,
which, YOU,
shall (by Law) proclaim
IN (or ‘according to’) THEIR, SEASONS :”
“Seasons”, to “DATE: In the fourteenth”;
“Seasons”, to “MONTH
(“you”, determined and “proclaimed”) the FIRST”,
“Seasons”, to “DAY-and-TIME-in-the-AFTER-NOON-of-day”—
THIS, the “Season” and “the Feast of the LORD”, “the Passover of Yahweh” in the Book of Moses, ‘The Book for the Levites’…

…proving Dr Walter an ignorant and FOR NO REASON BUT SUNDAY-WORSHIP, malicious Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD antagonist.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Never spoke a more false word! Saturdayism dishonors the Glory of God, repudiates the grace of God and despises the Person and works of Jesus Christ and perverts the Word of God. Seventh dayism brings the soul back under the bondage of the Old Covenant as it is the sign of the Old Covenant:

“But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'You shall surely observe My Sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations.” Ex. 31:13; Ezek. 20:12, 19-21.


and thus belongs to the Law covenant which God has abolished (Col. 2:14-16).

Gal 3:10. “But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? You observe days [Sabbath and Feast Days] and months and seasons and years. I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.” Gal. 4:9-11. “Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—Col. 2:16.

The change of Sabbath from the seventh to the first under the New Covenant is depicted in the sabbath days in Leviticus 23 and 25 (1st, 8th, 15th, 22nd and 50th days, 50th year).

The new first day of the week Sabbath is predicted in Psalm 118:20-24 with Acts 4:10-11; 13:10 and commanded in 1 Cor. 16:1-2 and established in Acts 20:7 and designated as the "kuriakos" day in Rev. 1:10 which every person in the Roman Empire knew that term when applied to "day" was Sunday.

Spurgeon had it right again!

I stand corrected....not saturday or sunday but everyday. Christ is the NEW sabbath so you can dispence with all OT ways. Christ is Lord of the Sabbath.

 

[BobRyan]

Interesting what D.L. Moody said in his affirmation of God's 4th Commandment -

Quote:
http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The_TenCommandments_Text.html

Fundamental Baptist Institute​

http://www.fbinstitute.com/​

DWIGHT L. MOODY​

Quote:
Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it. ​

THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness.

Here is the part where Spurgeon affirms the validity of God's 4th commandment.

"Money gained on Sabbath-day is a loss, I dare to say. No blessing can come with that which comes to us, on the devil’s back, by our willful disobedience of God’s law. The loss of health by neglect of rest, and the loss of soul by neglect of hearing the gospel, soon turn all seeming profit into real loss." - C.H. Spurgeon
"Salt Cellars": Salt Cellars, C.H. Spurgeon (Vol. 2 M-Z)

FROM: CHARLES SPURGEON'S CATECHISM

(WHAT IS TO BE TAUGHT TO CHILDREN):

49 Q Which is the fourth commandment?

A The fourth commandment is, Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor they cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

50 Q What is required in the fourth commandment?

A The fourth commandment requires the keeping holy to God such set times as he has appointed in his Word, expressly one whole day in seven, to be a holy Sabbath to himself (Le 19:30 De 5:12).

51 Q How is the Sabbath to be sanctified?

A The Sabbath is to be sanctified by a holy resting all that day, even from such worldly employments and recreations as are lawful on other days (Le 23:3), and spending the whole time in the public and private exercises of God's worship (Ps 92:1,2 Isa 58:13,14), except so much as is taken up in the works of necessity and mercy (Mt 12:11,12).

"...the reason why people become Hyper-Calvinists and Antinomians, is because some, who profess to be Calvinists, often keep back part of the truth, and do not, as Paul did, "declare all the counsel of God"; they select certain parts of Scripture, where their own particular views are taught, and pass by other aspects of God's truth. Such preachers as John Newton, and in later times, your own Christmas Evans, were men who preached the whole truth of God; they kept back nothing that God has revealed; and, as the result of their preaching, Antinomianism could not find a foot-hold anywhere." (Charles Spurgeon, Gospel of Sovereign Grace).

"It is to be feared that some zealous brethren have preached the doctrine of justification by faith not only so boldly and so plainly, but also so baldly and so out of all connection with other truth, that they have led men into presumptuous confidences, and have appeared to lend their countenance to a species of Antinomianism very much to be dreaded. From a dead, fruitless, inoperative faith we may earnestly pray, "Good Lord, deliver us," yet may we be unconsciously, fostering it." (Charles Spurgeon, Faith and Regeneration)

When I responded to the question about whether Spurgeon and Moody were open to editing the commandments of God via the traditions of men - I responded that they did seem to embrace that idea - and of course - in true faithfulness to Christ's teaching in Mark 7, I do not choose to edit the Commands of God with the traditions of men.

But still these men do affirm some valid points on the continued authority of God's 4th commandment. Credit where credit is due.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

There is only ONE Sabbath law and that is the fourth commandment.

This is the part where reading Lev 23 would have served to correct your false idea above.

There are annual Sabbaths in Lev 23 that are NOT memorials of creation and do not fall on the Ex 20:8-11 (Gen 2:1-3) 7th day Sabbath given in Eden to mankind.

The "Sabbath was made for MANKIND" statement of Christ in Mark 2:27 is not about annual Lev 23 Sabbaths - but about the Seventh-day Sabbath of Gen 2:1-3 given TO Mankind at the making OF Mankind!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by Dr. Walter
Bob PRESUMES his position is correct and ASSUMES that that all these quotations in the second century are "traditions of men." However it is both this PRESUMPTION and ASSUMPTION that is being challenged!



Bob's hypocrisy is glaring. First he and all SDA advocates argued that Constantine was the first to change the Sabbath to Sunday!

My response below is to the wild empty claim above about "Constantine the first to change" -

BobRyan replies - -Works better if you "quote me" when trying to "Accuse me". Of course empty accusations seem to be your preferred method so far ... so you may not go for the idea of actually having a quote of me saying something that you want to claim I am saying.

I realize this idea gets in the way of your non-stop ranting and ad hominem - but at some point you need to think about appealing to the objective unbiased Bible student instead of all playing to your imagined "yes men".

Now comes Walter's "bait and switch" hoping the readers do not notice the context for my statement above.

I did quote you and your words were "traditions of men" in regard to these 2nd century quotations and they are your PRESUMPTIONS without evidence!

To your charge "Bob PRESUMES his position is correct and ASSUMES that that all these quotations in the second century are "traditions of men." "

I simply point out the obvious. That you yourself provide no Bible texts AT ALL that use the language of your non-biblical sources!! In other words your "traditions of men" clearly state the claim that week-day-1 -- the "day of the sun" (as Justin Martyr called it) is the Lord's Day - but no such claim is found in the actual Bible to support those "traditions of men".

AND THEN - you yourself shoot your own argument in the foot when you appeal to cases where they openly condemned the Word of God choosing rather the traditions of men. (Hint: Your quote of Spurgeon).

Charles Spurgeon said, "I am no preacher of the old legal Sabbath. I am a preacher of the Gospel. The Sabbath of the Jew is to him a task; the Lord's Day of the Christian, the first day of the week, is to him a joy, a day of rest, of peace, and of thanksgiving. And if you Christian men can earnestly drive away all distractions, so that you can really rest today, it will be good for your bodies, good for your souls, good mentally, good spiritually, good temporally, and good eternally." - Charles Haddon Spurgeon, Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, Vol. 7, p. 580.

Spurgeon, Moody and Pink interpreted the fourth commandment just as I do. They rejected the idea that it referred to the seventh day "of the week" .

God said
Ex 20
8 ""Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 "" Sixdays you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God; ...
11 "" For in six days the LORD made theheavens and the earth, the sea and allthat is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

But the "traditions of man" said: Walter " Spurgeon, Moody and Pink interpreted the fourth commandment just as I do. They rejected the idea that it referred to the seventh day "of the week"

(A more catholic argument in this regard could hardly be imagined than is found in Walter's statement above)

God said --
Gen 2 –
2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.


But the "traditions of man" said: Walter " Spurgeon, Moody and Pink interpreted the fourth commandment just as I do. They rejected the idea that it referred to the seventh day "of the week"

(A more catholic argument in this regard could hardly be imagined than is found in Walter's statement above -- unless of course you include Tyndale)


Tyndale even goes so far as to place Christians in the seat of Christ's Mark 2:27 statement "The Son of man is LORD of the Sabbath" - Tyndale claimes that Christians are free to change God's Law as it pleases them to do so!

William Tyndale: "WE be lords over the Sabbath; WE may change it for Monday or any other day, as we see need, or have two every week, if one is not enough to teach the people."

Where then are the Bible believing Baptists and other protestants here who will stand up for the Word of God - though the heaven's fall? Why all the deafening silence on their part given Christ's Word in Matt 10 about remaining silent in such cases?

Are they really so ably represented by Bible-denying posts claiming that the Sabbath given by God is not referring to the 7th-day of the Week?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

On threads such as this one - Protestants start out by exposing what they see as a flaw in the Catholic argument. But here we see the Catholic argument turns this around on Protestants - arguing that protestants themselves are embracing/approving/validating the Catholic argument over sola scriptura.

The RCC said --

The Faith Explained (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 that

changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name". page 243

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day From Saturday to Sunday. We know of the change only from the tradition of the Church - a fact handed down to us...that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many Non-Catholics, who say that they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and Yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

. (from "The Faith Explained" page 243.))

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church!!
=========================================================================================================

Christ said in Mark 7 --

7 " BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'
8 ""Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.''
9 He was also saying to them, ""You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
10 ""For Moses said, " HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER'; and, " HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH';
11 but you say, "If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),'
12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.''

And this begs the question of how it is that error could have come into the Christian church by so soon a time as the middle of the 2nd century A.D. -

ERRORs of the form of falsehoods and forgeries claiming to be of Barnabas and Ignatius.

Errors of the form that would begin to delete the Command of God and replace it with the traditions of man - in regard to one of the Ten Commandments.

Well - what does Paul predict in regard to error coming in??

Acts 20
28 ""Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
29 ""I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.


Paul warns the saints in Gal 1 "Though WE or an angel from heaven should come to you with a different gospel...let him be accursed".

Paul tells Timothy to remain in Ephesus (1Tim 1) for the express purpose of suppressing error trying to raise itself up in that church at that very time.

Let the sincere Bible student be informed.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In Nehemiah 13:18 God's Word says "you are adding to the wrath on Israel by profaning the Sabbath".

Joel 1 and 2 describe God's means of destroying the economy when the nation chooses open rebellion against God.

Suppose that "WE be lords over the Sabbath; WE may change it for Monday or any other day, as we see need, or have two every week, if one is not enough to teach the people" - idea actually offends a holy God who is "JUST and the justifier" of those who seek Him and who will by no means pardon those who are determined to live in rebellion.

Just what if?

In Gen 15:16 Abraham is told that he is not going to replace the Caananites because "The sin of the Amorite is not yet complete".

In Matt 23 Israel is told "fill up the measure of guilt of your fathers... that upon you may come the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth from Abel to Zechariah".

Just suppose that nations with the Light of God's Word - ARE held accountable for their trampling the Law of God at some point. What then?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

This is the part where reading Lev 23 would have served to correct your false idea above.

There are annual Sabbaths in Lev 23 that are NOT memorials of creation and do not fall on the Ex 20:8-11 (Gen 2:1-3) 7th day Sabbath given in Eden to mankind.

The "Sabbath was made for MANKIND" statement of Christ in Mark 2:27 is not about annual Lev 23 Sabbaths - but about the Seventh-day Sabbath of Gen 2:1-3 given TO Mankind at the making OF Mankind!

in Christ,

Bob

The annual Sabbaths are derived from the ONE sabbath law in the fourth commandment just as the civil laws are based upon the ten commandments.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Interesting what D.L. Moody said in his affirmation of God's 4th Commandment -

You need to read more of both Moody and Spurgeon on this subject in order to rightly present their view. They believed in the fourth commandment exactly as I do and a fuller reading will demonstrate that to you.