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Charles spurgeon on roman catholicism: “a vast mountain of rubbish covering the truth

Dr. Walter

New Member
My response below is to the wild empty claim above about "Constantine the first to change" -

This is funny! First let me quote you again:

"The RCC said --

The Faith Explained (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 that

changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name". page 243


Anyone who has read SDA literature that attacks Sunday knows that quotes like above refer are interpreted by SDA writers to refer to Constantine and the law he made! Ellen G. Whites book "the Great Controversy" and every other book, booklet written by SDA Advocates have claimed in writing for decades that Constantine change Sunday from Saturday and in every single one of the these books, booklets and articles produced by the SDA the Catholic claim above is given as their evidence.

So don't give us the runaround Bob! Your playing games and it is really simple for me to take one of many SDA writings I have on by book shelf and show that you are following the same identical argument. With those ignorant of History SDA advocates are still claiming this obselete and false claim but with those who know history SDA advocates take your approach - duplicity, deceptive and hypocritical are the words to describe the SDA history argument.




Now comes Walter's "bait and switch" hoping the readers do not notice the context for my statement above.

No bait and switch at all! I could have included the above quotation as well as the words quoted here.



To your charge "Bob PRESUMES his position is correct and ASSUMES that that all these quotations in the second century are "traditions of men." "
I provided the Biblical data concerning the term "kuriakos" which you did not refute because you cannot refute it and be honest. Hence, based upon that one text, I can equally argue that these second century quotations are based upon scripture, because in reality, Revelation 1:10 is the basis while your interpretation is the tradition of men.


AND THEN - you yourself shoot your own argument in the foot when you appeal to cases where they openly condemned the Word of God choosing rather the traditions of men. (Hint: Your quote of Spurgeon).

My quotation of Spurgeon was to correct your misinterpretation of Spurgeon and to show that Spurgeon did not take your position on the fourth commandment but rather he took my position. However, your not honest enough to admit that fact but put it through your "bait and switch" argument and spin machine.


Walter " Spurgeon, Moody and Pink interpreted the fourth commandment just as I do. They rejected the idea that it referred to the seventh day "of the week"

Again, it is your PRESUMPTION that Walter, Spurgeon, Moody and Pink hold to a position that is the "traditions of men"! The truth is that you hold to the position of the 'traditions of men" becuase the New Testament clearly and explicitly abolishes the "old Covenant" and the sabbatical cylces which includes the seventh day sabbath as Leviticus 23 BEGINS with the seventh day sabbath as part of the SABBATHS of these feasts (Col. 2:16).

The fourth commandment remains unchanged but the application is changed! The fourth commandment nor the creation account ever restricts itself to such words as "of the week." NEVER! That is the traditions of men as it cannot be found in the creation account or the fourth commandment.
This Sabbath principle can be interpreted and is applied to other days and periods of time longer than the 24 hour days. However, the "of the week" man made interpretation would deny the fourth commandment application to any other day or preiod of time longer than a 24 hour period!

To argue that the monthly and annual and multiple yearly Sabbaths are not derived from the fourth commandment is about as much common sense as denying the civil laws are derived from the commandments as well!
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
The annual Sabbaths are derived from the ONE sabbath law in the fourth commandment just as the civil laws are based upon the ten commandments.

As it turns out - they are not "derived at all". They are a case of primary commands from God himself rather than something derived from a primary command - they in fact are primary commands.

For example in Lev 23 the law regarding the Day of Atonement says nothing about a memorial of Creation and it is divinely inspired from God Himself.

God does not "derive" one command from the other - he speaks.

in Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Walter said:
Originally Posted by Dr. Walter
I did quote you and your words were "traditions of men" in regard to these 2nd century quotations and they are your PRESUMPTIONS without evidence!

To your charge "Bob PRESUMES his position is correct and ASSUMES that that all these quotations in the second century are "traditions of men." "

Bob Replied
I simply point out the obvious. That you yourself provide no Bible texts AT ALL that use the language of your non-biblical sources!! In other words your "traditions of men" clearly state the claim that week-day-1 -- the "day of the sun" (as Justin Martyr called it) is the Lord's Day - but no such claim is found in the actual Bible to support those "traditions of men".

AND THEN - you yourself shoot your own argument in the foot when you appeal to cases where they openly condemned the Word of God choosing rather the traditions of men. (Hint: Your quote of Spurgeon).

Originally Posted by Dr. Walter
Charles Spurgeon said, "I am no preacher of the old legal Sabbath. I am a preacher of the Gospel. The Sabbath of the Jew is to him a task; the Lord's Day of the Christian, the first day of the week, is to him a joy, a day of rest, of peace, and of thanksgiving. And if you Christian men can earnestly drive away all distractions, so that you can really rest today, it will be good for your bodies, good for your souls, good mentally, good spiritually, good temporally, and good eternally." - Charles Haddon Spurgeon, Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, Vol. 7, p. 580.

Spurgeon, Moody and Pink interpreted the fourth commandment just as I do. They rejected the idea that it referred to the seventh day "of the week" .

God said
Ex 20
8 ""Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 "" Sixdays you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God; ...
11 "" For in six days the LORD made theheavens and the earth, the sea and allthat is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

But the "traditions of man" said: Walter " Spurgeon, Moody and Pink interpreted the fourth commandment just as I do. They rejected the idea that it referred to the seventh day "of the week"

(A more catholic argument in this regard could hardly be imagined than is found in Walter's statement above)

God said --
Gen 2 –
2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.


But the "traditions of man" said: Walter " Spurgeon, Moody and Pink interpreted the fourth commandment just as I do. They rejected the idea that it referred to the seventh day "of the week"

(A more catholic argument in this regard could hardly be imagined than is found in Walter's statement above --

My quotation of Spurgeon was to correct your misinterpretation of Spurgeon and to show that Spurgeon did not take your position on the fourth commandment but rather he took my position.

You would have to "do the math" enough to "show" where I ever misinterpreted Spurgeon. So far you only toss out empty accusations - failing to show even one single detail in support of your wild claims.

As you may recall - this is what I quoted from Spurgeon

C.H. Spurgeon said:
"Money gained on Sabbath-day is a loss, I dare to say. No blessing can come with that which comes to us, on the devil’s back, by our willful disobedience of God’s law. The loss of health by neglect of rest, and the loss of soul by neglect of hearing the gospel, soon turn all seeming profit into real loss." - C.H. Spurgeon
"Salt Cellars": Salt Cellars, C.H. Spurgeon (Vol. 2 M-Z)

FROM: CHARLES SPURGEON'S CATECHISM

(WHAT IS TO BE TAUGHT TO CHILDREN):

49 Q Which is the fourth commandment?

A The fourth commandment is, Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor they cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

50 Q What is required in the fourth commandment?

A The fourth commandment requires the keeping holy to God such set times as he has appointed in his Word, expressly one whole day in seven, to be a holy Sabbath to himself (Le 19:30 De 5:12).

51 Q How is the Sabbath to be sanctified?

A The Sabbath is to be sanctified by a holy resting all that day, even from such worldly employments and recreations as are lawful on other days (Le 23:3), and spending the whole time in the public and private exercises of God's worship (Ps 92:1,2 Isa 58:13,14), except so much as is taken up in the works of necessity and mercy (Mt 12:11,12).

"...the reason why people become Hyper-Calvinists and Antinomians, is because some, who profess to be Calvinists, often keep back part of the truth, and do not, as Paul did, "declare all the counsel of God"; they select certain parts of Scripture, where their own particular views are taught, and pass by other aspects of God's truth. Such preachers as John Newton, and in later times, your own Christmas Evans, were men who preached the whole truth of God; they kept back nothing that God has revealed; and, as the result of their preaching, Antinomianism could not find a foot-hold anywhere." (Charles Spurgeon, Gospel of Sovereign Grace).

"It is to be feared that some zealous brethren have preached the doctrine of justification by faith not only so boldly and so plainly, but also so baldly and so out of all connection with other truth, that they have led men into presumptuous confidences, and have appeared to lend their countenance to a species of Antinomianism very much to be dreaded. From a dead, fruitless, inoperative faith we may earnestly pray, "Good Lord, deliver us," yet may we be unconsciously, fostering it." (Charles Spurgeon, Faith and Regeneration)
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Walter said: " Spurgeon, Moody and Pink interpreted the fourth commandment just as I do. They rejected the idea that it referred to the seventh day "of the week"

Here is what Moody said - as you may recall...

Quote:
http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The_TenCommandments_Text.html



Fundamental Baptist Institute





DWIGHT L. MOODY



Quote:
Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.



THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness.

The reader is welcome to search until they are "blue in the face" trying to find a spot on this thread where Walter makes these same claims about the 4th commandment - as D.L. Moody makes in those quotes above.

in Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
David Lamb (who reminds me of Chris Lamb in some ways) then asks -

Originally Posted by David Lamb
Bob, are you saying that because Spurgeon, Moody and Pink used the word "Sabbath", they must have been "Seventh Day"?

And of course as we all know - I then responded with this --

I am saying that the force of the argument they make is explicitly centered on the continuing validity of the Ten Commandments and especially the 4th commandment - the Sabbath commandment.

How one chooses to apply the Mark 7 method of "edit that commandment according to tradition" is a different matter.

But the arguments themselves are applicable to the commandment whether you choose to edit God's Word or not. In their case they may be choosing to edit while applying the force of their 4th commandment argument. So we then notice that they do NOT say "because we edit the 4th commandment from the way God gave it - THEN the 4th commandment is still valid and here are some arguments for keeping it." By nicely sidestepping their own man-made-tradition for editing God's Word - they then are free to apply the full force of their argument from the language of the commandment itself - from the fact of the 4th commandment itself. (Hence when Spurgeon answers the question about which is the Sabbath Commandment - he quotes verbatim from the 4th commandment text.) An argument that I find even more forceful and compelling if you do not Edit the Word of God.

In my case - I choose not to edit God's Word. The result is that the logic in the arguments they make is even more compelling when applied to an unedited Word of God!

Which results in Walter making this wild claim --
Originally Posted by Dr. Walter
Spurgeon, A.W. Pink and Moody all believed in the Sabbath just as I do



Hmmm -- a review of Walter's posts on this thread is in order so we can see just how closely Walter's posts line up with that statement above by Spurgeon.

Here the trashing of God's Seventh-day that we have come to expect from Walter -

Originally Posted by Dr. Walter
...

Seventh dayism brings the soul back under the bondage of the Old Covenant as it is the sign of the Old Covenant:

“But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'You shall surely observe My Sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations.” Ex. 31:13; Ezek. 20:12, 19-21.


and thus belongs to the Law covenant which God has abolished (Col. 2:14-16).

Gal 3:10. “But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? You observe days [Sabbath and Feast Days] and months and seasons and years. I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.” Gal. 4:9-11. “Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—Col. 2:16.

In Walter's model - Sabbath is just for Jews - a "sign between God and Jews".

In Spurgeon's model Sabbath is "edited" to apply to Christians and so Spurgeon argues directly from the language of the 4th commandment itself - as being that thing that he wants to apply to Christians. Notice the actual language Spurgeon argues for his promotion of Sabbath - language utterly missing from Walter's own affirmation and promotion of Sabbath -- in whatever form he may imagine himself doing it. The fact that Walter wants to claim he promotes Sabbath the same way D.L.Moody did - is way out of bounds in terms of the realm of reason and logic.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by Dr. Walter
Bob PRESUMES his position is correct and ASSUMES that that all these quotations in the second century are "traditions of men." However it is both this PRESUMPTION and ASSUMPTION that is being challenged!

Bob's hypocrisy is glaring. First he and all SDA advocates argued that Constantine was the first to change the Sabbath to Sunday!


My response below is to the wild empty claim above about "Constantine the first to change" -

Quote:
BobRyan replies - -Works better if you "quote me" when trying to "Accuse me". Of course empty accusations seem to be your preferred method so far ... so you may not go for the idea of actually having a quote of me saying something that you want to claim I am saying.


This is funny! First let me quote you again:

"The RCC said --

The Faith Explained (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 that

changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name". page 243

Hint - you are primarily quoting the RC Commentary "The Faith Explained". All you have from me is the statement that the RC Commentary "is the source".

Is that what you dispute -- the fact that the RC Commentary is making the statement? really? Or did you think I authored the RC commentary?


Here is the actuall statement THEY make --

The Faith Explained (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 that

changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name". page 243
nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day From Saturday to Sunday. We know of the change only from the tradition of the Church - a fact handed down to us...that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many Non-Catholics, who say that they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and Yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

. (from "The Faith Explained" page 243.))

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church

Anyone who has read SDA literature that attacks Sunday knows that quotes like above refer are interpreted by SDA writers to refer to Constantine and the law he made!

Historically it is true that Constantine did make a law enforcing Sunday observance - but in the quote I gave - I make no mention of it --

My point is that the RCC itself admits to the lack of Bible support for their own initiative. I make no claim at all that Constantine alone imagined this idea.

Your efforts to conflate many seperate details in history - into a single act by Constantine is a flawed argument on your part. It is not an argument I have made here.


Walter --
it is really simple for me to take one of many SDA writings I have on by book shelf and show

Err! Hold it! What ?? you have "many SDA writings on your bookshelf"??

What is up with that?

in Christ,

Bob
 
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Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
My answer to Dr Walter continued...

‘Sabbaton’

States Dr Walter, “…"sabbatou = singular and only used of the fourth commandment Sabbath…”.

“Compare the words used in Mark 16:2 with Mark 16:9! "mia" is used in verse 2 but "proto" in verse 9. The plural "sabbaton" is used in verse 2 but the singular "sabbatou" is used in verse 9.
Mark 16:2 gives the normal reading for the "first day of the week" but the change in verse 9 is intentional. "Mia" is simply the regular ordinal number "first" but "prote" refers to the first in a series. Sabbaton is the regular term used for the day following the Jewish Sabbath when used with "mia" but "Sabbatou" is the normal term used for the fourth commandment Sabbath.
Hence, Jesus arose "proii" early between 3am to 6am on the "first Sabbath of a new series" identified in verse 2 as the "first day of the week."

Mark 16:9 literally reads "the first sabbath in a new series" (protos = first in a new series; "sabbatou = singular and only used of the fourth commandment Sabbath) "proii" - 3am to 6am Sunday Morning!”

“Mark 16:9 literally reads "the first sabbath in a new series" (protos = first in a new series; "sabbatou = singular and only used of the fourth commandment Sabbath) "proii" - 3am to 6am Sunday Morning!”

GE:

Really bad grammar, is the only impression, I get. And worse pedagogy. Combined, a nightmare. First one must have something clear to one self, before you can teach someone else. You would have made my task to react on your ‘stuff’, much easier, Dr Walter, if you talked sense, and used at least correct Greek references. So let the learner teach the scholar.

Re: Dr Walter, “"sabbatou = singular and only used of the fourth commandment Sabbath…”

Now, “"sabbatou = singular” is wrong, in that it does not tell halve, or it tells twice as much of what is necessary to know before one may apply “=”. ‘Sabbátou’ is the Singular Genitive, and that makes the world’s difference because “singular … Sabbath” in Greek normally, means it is the Nominative, ‘sábbaton’, not Genitive, ‘sabbátou’— no implications mentioned yet!

Al right then, departing from the assumption you meant ‘sábbaton’ Nominative representing any Case, “= singular and only used of the fourth commandment Sabbath”, you’re again, wrong, and in more than one way, wrong. I’ll now point to the most obvious way in which it is wrong to say ‘sábbaton’, “= singular and only used of the fourth commandment Sabbath”. This is how… ‘sábbaton’, “= singular”, can also occur, the Singular, used for a Plurality of ‘sabbaths’! E.g., in Mark 2:27, “the Sabbath was made for man” // “Sabbaths were made / are, for man’s sake.” Or in Matthew 12:12, “it is proper to do good on a Sabbath” // “it is the proper thing to do good on Sabbaths always”. In these cases the Singular, has a Plural meaning.
 
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Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
In another category are those cases where one Gospel uses a Plural where another uses a Singular, e.g., Matthew 12:2, “Your disciples do what is not proper to do on a Sabbath”, ‘en sabbátohi’ // Mark 2:24, “do on the Sabbath, ‘tois sábbasin’, that which is not proper”. So does Luke in 6:1 use the Singular, – “on the Sabbath through the cornfields” – where Matthew 12:1 has a Plural, – “on the Sabbaths through the cornfields”. In these cases the Plural has a Singular, meaning.

In any instance the Dative depends on Context. One must be specific, is the moral of the story. And Dr Walter is totally negligent. One cannot rely on what he so easily states categorically.

Therefore, is it correct what Dr Walter warrants us, “"sabbatou = singular and only used of the fourth commandment Sabbath”? Generally speaking, ‘sabbath’, ‘sábbaton’, yes. 58 times in the Gospels, 10 instances in Acts, and two in Paul’s Letters. But there are in fact exceptions.

Most obvious exception is where it is said the Pharisee fasted “twice a week”, ‘dis tou sabbátou’— twice on a ‘sabbath’, Singular, making no sense.

Then there are all the passages containing references to one certain ‘day-of-the-week’. These are the stories of the visits to the tomb and first appearances.

Visits to the tomb:

The two Marys “intended to go have a look at the tomb, towards, the-First-Day-of-the-week”, ‘eis mian sabbátohn’, Matthew 28:1;

Mary Magdalene comes, sees the stone, runs back, “on-the-First-Day-of-the-week, ‘tehi miai tohn sabbátohn’, while being early darkness still”, John 20:1;

The women “come to the tomb with spices prepared deepest of early morning on-the-first-day-of-the-week, ‘tehi miai tohn sabbátohn’”, Luke 24:1;

“They very early sunrising on-the-First-Day-of-the-week, ‘tehi miai tohn sabbátohn’, re-inspect the stone”, Mark16:2;

Jesus “early on-the-First-Day-of-the-week, ‘proh-i prohtehi sabbátou’, appeared to Mary Magdalene first”, Mark 16:9;


Paul:

The disciples “on-the-First-Day-of-the-week, ‘en tehi miai sabbátohn’, having been assembling still”, Acts 20:7;

“On-the-First-Day-of-the-week, ‘kata mian sabbátou’, each of you put aside by himself”, 1Corinthians 16:2.

What problem can there be with interpreting ‘sabbath’, for ‘week’ in EVERY instance of these combinations of ‘time-structures’ or ‘time-phrases’? Dr Walter has a problem though with his ‘ordinals’ and ‘numerals’. Reckons he, “"Mia" is simply the regular ordinal number "first" but "prote" refers to the first in a series.” No; “"prote"”— ‘protos’> ‘prohtehi’, “first”, in Mark 16:9, is simply the regular ordinal number "first"— not, “"Mia"” > ‘miai’> ‘heis’ in “Mark 16:2”, which “gives the normal reading for the "first day of the week"”… “normal”, in Hellenistic, New Testament Greek, yes. Because here we have to do with Greek idiom.
 

Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
Mentions Blass Debrunner (247.1.) “…das Hebräische, das alle Monatstage durch Kardinalia bezeichnet. …. ”. If therefore Hebrew would have had the same influence in “Mark 16:2”, it also would have read as in Mark 16:9, with ‘prohtehi’ in stead of ‘miai’. BD(247.1.1.), “‘Mia’ = ‘prohteh’ auch z. B. A 20:7, 1C 16:2, Mc 16:2, L 24:1; nur [Mc] 16:9 ‘prohtehi sabbátou’, wofür indes Eusebius ‘tehi miai’ zitiert.”

Mark 16:9’s ‘prohtehi sabbatou’ is therefore ‘simply’ explained by Hebrew influence, and further proves the passage was added and did not have the same author as the primitive ending. But the meaning is just the same: “The First Day of the week.”

And yes, of course, the ordinal, ‘prohtehi’- ‘on the first’— “the first in a series”; and surely, yes, on the first ‘Sabbath’=’week’, “of a new series" identified in verse 2 as the "first day of the week"”, ABSOLUTELY!

So far from, “Mark 16:9 literally reads "the first sabbath in a new series."” Because it does not literally or idiomatically read any of that, for Mark 16:9 literally reads “prohtehi” and not “"Mia"”, while “prohtehi” simply is the regular ordinal number "first" in the Dative Case of Relation, and THEREFORE “refers to the first in a series”— the ‘series’ in English idiom, “of the week”, from the Hellenistic Greek idiom for ‘of the week’, literally, “of the sabbath”- ‘sabbatou’ … Singular Possessive.
 

Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
I stand corrected....not saturday or sunday but everyday. Christ is the NEW sabbath so you can dispence with all OT ways. Christ is Lord of the Sabbath.


GE:

Christ is not your or any Christian's 'sabbath'; that is equally robbing both Christ and the Lord's Day Sabbath of their due respect and honour. No, it's more dishonouring to the Lord of the Sabbath than to the Sabbath because Christ is greater than and infinitely incomparable with the Sabbath even the "Holy Day of the LORD". So your sort of worship Christ as Sabbath .... let me have no part in it! Thanks! And He will not approve of or take part in your worship of Him if He must share his Lordship with anything else.

Do you really think you can shrug off the Sabbath just like that?! The Sabbath’s keeping is your duty as Christian; the Sabbath’s Lord, is the Lord Jesus. See that you don’t abuse your privileges.
 

Dr. Walter

New Member
My answer to Dr Walter continued...

‘Sabbaton’

States Dr Walter, “…"sabbatou = singular and only used of the fourth commandment Sabbath…”.

“Compare the words used in Mark 16:2 with Mark 16:9! "mia" is used in verse 2 but "proto" in verse 9. The plural "sabbaton" is used in verse 2 but the singular "sabbatou" is used in verse 9.
Mark 16:2 gives the normal reading for the "first day of the week" but the change in verse 9 is intentional. "Mia" is simply the regular ordinal number "first" but "prote" refers to the first in a series. Sabbaton is the regular term used for the day following the Jewish Sabbath when used with "mia" but "Sabbatou" is the normal term used for the fourth commandment Sabbath.
Hence, Jesus arose "proii" early between 3am to 6am on the "first Sabbath of a new series" identified in verse 2 as the "first day of the week."

Mark 16:9 literally reads "the first sabbath in a new series" (protos = first in a new series; "sabbatou = singular and only used of the fourth commandment Sabbath) "proii" - 3am to 6am Sunday Morning!”

“Mark 16:9 literally reads "the first sabbath in a new series" (protos = first in a new series; "sabbatou = singular and only used of the fourth commandment Sabbath) "proii" - 3am to 6am Sunday Morning!”

GE:

Really bad grammar, is the only impression, I get. And worse pedagogy. Combined, a nightmare. First one must have something clear to one self, before you can teach someone else. You would have made my task to react on your ‘stuff’, much easier, Dr Walter, if you talked sense, and used at least correct Greek references. So let the learner teach the scholar.

Re: Dr Walter, “"sabbatou = singular and only used of the fourth commandment Sabbath…”

Now, “"sabbatou = singular” is wrong, in that it does not tell halve, or it tells twice as much of what is necessary to know before one may apply “=”. ‘Sabbátou’ is the Singular Genitive, and that makes the world’s difference because “singular … Sabbath” in Greek normally, means it is the Nominative, ‘sábbaton’, not Genitive, ‘sabbátou’— no implications mentioned yet!

Al right then, departing from the assumption you meant ‘sábbaton’ Nominative representing any Case, “= singular and only used of the fourth commandment Sabbath”, you’re again, wrong, and in more than one way, wrong. I’ll now point to the most obvious way in which it is wrong to say ‘sábbaton’, “= singular and only used of the fourth commandment Sabbath”. This is how… ‘sábbaton’, “= singular”, can also occur, the Singular, used for a Plurality of ‘sabbaths’! E.g., in Mark 2:27, “the Sabbath was made for man” // “Sabbaths were made / are, for man’s sake.” Or in Matthew 12:12, “it is proper to do good on a Sabbath” // “it is the proper thing to do good on Sabbaths always”. In these cases the Singular, has a Plural meaning.

Mark 16:9 and 2:27 and Matthew 12:12 are SINGULAR and in the TR the singular Sabbatou or Sabbaton depending on how they are used in a sentence are the normal reference for the fourth commandment Sabbath.

In Contrast, Mark 16:2 is PLURAL and with the term "mia" and is the normal designation for the "first day of the week."

You response that the singular has a plural meaning does not help your case one iota because the authors had the plural available and could have used the plural if they wanted that idea to be conveyed just as Paul used the plural in Col. 2:16.
 

Dr. Walter

New Member
In another category are those cases where one Gospel uses a Plural where another uses a Singular, e.g., Matthew 12:2, “Your disciples do what is not proper to do on a Sabbath”, ‘en sabbátohi’ // Mark 2:24, “do on the Sabbath, ‘tois sábbasin’, that which is not proper”. So does Luke in 6:1 use the Singular, – “on the Sabbath through the cornfields” – where Matthew 12:1 has a Plural, – “on the Sabbaths through the cornfields”. In these cases the Plural has a Singular, meaning.


Your argument is invalid! I never denied the fourth commandment can be referred to in the plural! I never denied the singular can be understood in the abstract generic sense. What I stated was that the singular "sabbatou" (genitive) or singular accusative "sabbaton" is the normal use for the fourth commandment and the wording of Mark 16:9 is peculiar and different from the normal expression for "the first day of the week." It is the distinctive difference along with the normal use of the singular that indicates Mark is talking about the FIRST SABBATH in a NEW SERIES of Sabbaths, etablished on "the first day of the week."
 

Dr. Walter

New Member
The reader is welcome to search until they are "blue in the face" trying to find a spot on this thread where Walter makes these same claims about the 4th commandment - as D.L. Moody makes in those quotes above.

in Christ,

Bob

"A man ought to turn aside from his ordinary employment one day in seven" - D.L. Moody

"No man should make another work seven days in the week. One day is demanded for rest. A man who has to work the seven days has nothing to look forward to, and life becomes humdrum. Many Christians are guilty in this respect.

SABBATH TRAVELING

Take, for instance, the question of Sabbath traveling. I believe we are breaking God's laws by using the cars on Sunday and depriving conductors and others of their Sabbath
." - D.L. Moody

Well, I am not blue in the face yet! Bob just didn't read far enough into Moody's article! Under the heading of how the Sabbath was to be observed and Sabbath traveling we find the above interpretative statements of the fourth commandment! Moody argued that the Christian Sabbath was "Sunday" but argued as well, that there are some whose occupation does not permit them to observe Sunday as their Sabbath and in such cases they ought to pick some other day.


"Businessmen travel on the Sabbath so as to be on hand for business Monday morning. But if they do so God will not prosper them.

Work is good for man and is commanded, "Six days shalt thou labor"; but overwork and work on the Sabbath takes away the best thing he has
. " - D.L. Moody


"When I was a boy, the Sabbath lasted from sundown on Saturday to sundown on Sunday," - D.L. Moody


"SABBATH DESECRATION

Men seem to think they have a right to change the holy day into a holiday. The young have more temptations to break the Sabbath than we had forty years ago. There are three great temptations: first the trolley car, that will take you off into the country for a nickel to have a day of recreation; second, the bicycle, which is leading a good many Christian men to give up their Sabbath and spend the day on excursions; and the third, the Sunday newspaper.

Twenty years ago Christian people in Chicago would have been horrified if anyone had prophesied that all the theaters would be open every Sabbath; but that is what has come to pass. If it had been prophesied twenty years ago that Christian men would take a wheel and go off on Sunday morning and be gone all day on an excursion, Christians would have been horrified and would have said it was impossible; but that is what is going on today all over the country.

THE SUNDAY NEWSPAPER

With regard to the Sunday newspaper, I know all the arguments that are brought in its favor- that the work on it is done during the week, that it is the Monday paper that causes Sunday work, and so on. But there are two hundred thousand newsboys selling the paper on Sunday. Would you like to have your boy one of them? Men are kept running trains in order to distribute the papers. Would you like your Sabbath taken away from you? If not, then practice the Golden Rule, and don't touch the papers.

Their contents make them unfit for reading any day, not to say Sunday. Some New York dailies advertise Sunday editions of sixty pages. Many dirty pieces of scandal in this and other countries are raked up and put into them. "Eight pages of fun!"- that is splendid reading for Sunday, isn't it? Even when a so-called sermon is printed, it is completely buried by the fiction and news matter. It is time that ministers went into their pulpits and preached against Sunday newspapers if they haven't done it already.

Put the man in the scales that buys and reads Sunday papers. After reading them for two or three hours he might go and hear the best sermon in the world, but you couldn't preach anything into him. His mind is filled up with what he has read, and there is no room for thoughts of God. I believe that the archangel Gabriel himself could not make an impression on an audience that has its head full of such trash. If you bored a hole into a man's head, you could not inject any thoughts of God and heaven.

I don't believe that the publishers would allow their own children to read them. Why then should they give them to my children and to yours?

A merchant who advertises in Sunday papers is not keeping the Sabbath.
- D.L. Moody


All the above quotes were taken from the same article that Bob claims you would have to look to your "blue in the face" to find anywhere Moody interpreted the fourth commandment Sabbath to be Sunday. Well, I am not blue in the face and could quote a whole bunch more of easy reading in the same article.




Spurgeon made the same exact statement as Moody when it came to interpreting how the Sabbath was to be observed. I have quote Spurgeon already on this.
 
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Dr. Walter

New Member
Nice try bob! However, you omitted your introductory remark to Spurgeon's quote. Your introductory remark implied that Spurgeon interpreted the fourth commandment as you do - HE DID NOT. Here is your introductory remark:

"Here is the part where Spurgeon affirms the validity of God's 4th commandment." - Bob


I concur with Spurgeons interpretation of the fourth commandment. He did not interpret it to be the seventh day "OF THE WEEK" but only one day in seven. I further quoted Spurgeon to prove He rejected the seventh day "OF THE WEEK" interpretation by the Jews. He explicitly interprets the fourth commandment as "the first day of the week" and that would be impossible if he accepted the Jewish and SDA interpretation of the fourth commandment.
 

Dr. Walter

New Member
Hint - you are primarily quoting the RC Commentary "The Faith Explained". All you have from me is the statement that the RC Commentary "is the source".


I am quoting YOU as YOU are the one who quoted the RC commentary to support YOUR position that the Catholic Church claim responsibility for changing it from Saturday to Sunday! I never quoted the RC commentary to support anything I have ever said about Sunday! That was from YOUR quotation.

It is from YOUR quotation because YOU take the SDA view that Rome changed it from Saturday to Sunday and ALL SDA books and pamphlets repeat Ellen G.White's claim that this change by RC was Constantine's law.

Every SDA publication in print makes this same argument and directly accuse Constantine's law to be RESPONSIBLE for this change from Saturday to Sunday!!!

Historically it is true that Constantine did make a law enforcing Sunday observance - but in the quote I gave - I make no mention of it -- - Bob

I have discussed this subject with SDA pastors and teachers for over 35 years and I have many of Ellen G. White's books (The Great Controversy) as well as many other SDA books and pamphlets. I know what they say and what they have put into print and your denominations prophet and books repeatedly claim that Constantine was the FIRST to change the Sabbath law to Sunday.

BTW I have in my libraray writings from nearly all denominations as I am student of the writings of those I consider to be wrong. I want to know first hand what they are teaching.
 

Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
Nice try bob! However, you omitted your introductory remark to Spurgeon's quote. Your introductory remark implied that Spurgeon interpreted the fourth commandment as you do - HE DID NOT. Here is your introductory remark:

"Here is the part where Spurgeon affirms the validity of God's 4th commandment." - Bob


I concur with Spurgeons interpretation of the fourth commandment. He did not interpret it to be the seventh day "OF THE WEEK" but only one day in seven. I further quoted Spurgeon to prove He rejected the seventh day "OF THE WEEK" interpretation by the Jews. He explicitly interprets the fourth commandment as "the first day of the week" and that would be impossible if he accepted the Jewish and SDA interpretation of the fourth commandment.

GE:

Dear Dr Walter, you also, 'interpret' men like Moody and Spurgeon, 'invalidly'. Those men did NOT, 'interpret' the Fourth Commandment as you aver, "only one day in seven"; they understood the 'Sabbath' for 'the Lord's day' which again, they 'interpreted' as having been the day of Jesus' resurrection; which again they all unanimously 'interpreted' as having been SUNDAY, "the First Day _OF THE WEEK_". THAT, and NOT what YOU allege, the first day or 'sabbath' "IN A SERIES" : a 'series', of "working days".

The strength of all and each of your 'arguments', Dr Walter, is your ability to say nothing at all with much use of words, or at best something so vague the border between it and nothingness becomes virtually invisible.

 

Dr. Walter

New Member

GE:

Dear Dr Walter, you also, 'interpret' men like Moody and Spurgeon, 'invalidly'. Those men did NOT, 'interpret' the Fourth Commandment as you aver, "only one day in seven"; they understood the 'Sabbath' for 'the Lord's day' which again, they 'interpreted' as having been the day of Jesus' resurrection; which again they all unanimously 'interpreted' as having been SUNDAY, "the First Day _OF THE WEEK_". THAT, and NOT what YOU allege, the first day or 'sabbath' "IN A SERIES" : a 'series', of "working days".

The strength of all and each of your 'arguments', Dr Walter, is your ability to say nothing at all with much use of words, or at best something so vague the border between it and nothingness becomes virtually invisible.


That is not true! They believe the first day of the week beginning with the resurrection became the Sabbath for Christians. That is precisely what my interpretation of Mark 16:9 is all about. The first day of the week becoming the first Sabbath in a new series of Sabbath due to the resurrection. Thus a change from the Jewish Sabbath to the Christian Sabbath on that first Sunday resurrection.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
While Walter finds NO first century source claiming that Christians called "week day 1" the Lord's Day -- and NOT even a first century source claiming that Christians met weekly on Sunday -- he does find an excellent list of extra-Biblical late-2nd, 3rd and 4th century sources showing the REAL language that is used when someone wants to introduce and fully designate Sunday as the Lord's Day.

WAlter said
Anatolius Bishop of Laodicea in Asia Minor in A.D. 270 says, “Our regard for the Lord’s resurrection which took place on the Lord’s Day will lead us to celebrate it.”


Victorinus in A.D. 300 says, “On the former day we are accustomed to fast rigorously that on the Lord’s Day we may go forth to our brad with giving of thanks, lest we should appear to observe any other Sabbath with the Jewish, which Sabbath He in His body abolished[/U].”


Peter, Bishop of Alexanderia in A.D. 306 says, “But the Lord’s Day we celebrate as a day of joy because on it he rose again.”
Certainly Walter makes a good case in the list above for the fact that by the middle to late 2nd century AD - the "traditions of man" were already being placed in the stead of the Sabbath sanctified by God in Gen 2:3 and Spoken by God at Sinai.

I replied

Bob said

Yet notice how "distinctly" (the extra-biblical post-first century sources) make the claim that Sunday is the Lord's Day -- and that each weekly Sunday is to be celebrated in honor of Christ's resurrection.

THAT is the kind of explicit and affirming language that you use when you are trying to introduce something like a holy day.

HINT: "Remember the Sabbath day to KEEP IT HOLY.. God blessed the Seventh-day and Made IT Holy" -- and so the man-made tradition above appeals to very much the same language for Sunday.

How deafening the silence of SCRIPTURE by contrast to the actions of man when man-made tradition is trying to establish its own sanctified day of worship.


No Wonder Christ said in Mark 7 --

7 " BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'
8 ""Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.''
9 He was also saying to them, ""You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
10 ""For Moses said, " HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER'; and, " HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH';
11 but you say, "If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),'
12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.''

And this begs the question of how it is that error could have come into the Christian church by so soon a time as the middle of the 2nd century A.D. -

Bob's hypocrisy is glaring. First he and all SDA advocates argued that Constantine was the first to change the Sabbath to Sunday! However, when that perversion of history is exposed, then they simply reset their peg to the Second century and make the same vain invalid claim.

Walter's "first he and" was totally made up out of thin air. I have never said anything at all about worship on Sunday starting only with the decree by Constantine enforcing Sunday worship.

continued...


in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

Well-Known Member
This is funny! First let me quote you again:

"The RCC said --

The Faith Explained (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 that

changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name". page 243

Anyone who has read SDA literature that attacks Sunday knows that quotes like above refer are interpreted by SDA writers to refer to Constantine and the law he made! Ellen G. Whites book "the Great Controversy" and every other book, booklet written by SDA Advocates have claimed in writing for decades that Constantine change Sunday from Saturday and in every single one of the these books, booklets and articles produced by the SDA the Catholic claim above is given as their evidence.

So don't give us the runaround Bob! Your playing games and it is really simple for me to take one of many SDA writings I have on by book shelf and show that you are following the same identical argument. With those ignorant of History SDA advocates are still claiming this obselete and false claim but with those who know history SDA advocates take your approach - duplicity, deceptive...(remaining obligatory rant deleted here for the sake of the readers)

Since you wildly imagine that the SDA sources are claiming that Constantine was the first person to come up with the idea of Sunday worship, and I claim that sources (such as "The Great Controversy" -- that you mentioned) say is that Contantine was the first to legislate Sunday Worship as civil law - let us look at one of those sources to see who is right.

This is from the book "The Great Controversy"

Royal edicts, general councils, and church ordinances sustained by secular power were the steps by which the pagan festival attained its position of honor in the Christian world. The first public measure enforcing Sunday observance was the law enacted by Constantine. (A.D. 321; see Appendix note for page 53.) This edict required townspeople to rest on “the venerable day of the sun,” but permitted countrymen to continue their agricultural pursuits. Though virtually a heathen statute, it was enforced by the emperor after his nominal acceptance of Christianity. {GC 574.1}
The royal mandate not proving a sufficient substitute for divine authority, Eusebius, a bishop who sought the favor of princes, and who was the special friend and flatterer of Constantine, advanced the claim that Christ had transferred the Sabbath to Sunday. Not a single testimony of the Scriptures was produced in proof of the new doctrine. Eusebius himself unwittingly acknowledges its falsity and points to the real authors of the change. “All things,” he says, “whatever that it was duty to do on the Sabbath, these we have transferred to the Lord’s Day.”—Robert Cox,Sabbath Laws and Sabbath Duties, page 538. But the Sunday argument, groundless as it was, served to embolden men in trampling upon the Sabbath of the Lord. All who desired to be honored by the world accepted the popular festival. {GC 574.2}


The decrees of councils proving insufficient, the secular authorities were besought to issue an edict that would strike terror to the hearts of the people and force them to refrain from labor on the Sunday. At a synod held in Rome, all previous decisions were reaffirmed with greater force and solemnity. They were also incorporated into the ecclesiastical law and enforced by the civil authorities throughout nearly all Christendom. (See Heylyn, History of the Sabbath, pt. 2, ch. 5, sec. 7.) {GC 575.3}

Still the absence of Scriptural authority for Sundaykeeping occasioned no little embarrassment. The people questioned the right of their teachers to set aside the positive declaration of Jehovah, “The seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God,” in order to honor the day of the sun. To supply the lack of Bible testimony, other expedients were necessary. A zealous advocate of Sunday, who about the close of the twelfth century visited the churches of England, was resisted by faithful witnesses for the truth; and so fruitless were his efforts that he departed from the country for a season and cast about him for some means to enforce his teachings. When he returned, the lack was supplied, and in his after labors he met with greater success. He brought with him a roll purporting to be from God Himself, which contained the needed command for Sunday observance, with awful threats to terrify the disobedient. This precious document—as base a counterfeit as the institution it supported—was said to have fallen from heaven and to have been found in Jerusalem, upon the altar of St. Simeon, in Golgotha. But, in fact, the pontifical palace at Rome was the source whence it proceeded. Frauds and forgeries to advance the power and prosperity of the church have in all ages been esteemed lawful by the papal hierarchy. {GC 576.1}

An interesting contemporary note regarding that "letter from heaven" idea introduced by the RCC --


WorldNet Daily article: http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=250689

short 7 minute Movie trailer clip on Youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wstPcJg3PvE


The Letter itself claims to have been written by Jesus.

It is no wonder that finding no support at all for their idea in scripture - they have to invent "A letter from heaven".

in Christ,

Bob
 
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