Women in Ministry

[trustitl]

Why is it when other people use verses it "proof texting"? I was merely responding to the "use" of Debra to "prove" that women can teach or have authority over men when there is a verse that needs no explanation that teaches the exact opposite. The "pro-women in authority people" are guilty of explaining away some clear truths because of their doctrine that women are able to teach and have authority over men.

For example, your use of Phoebe being a deacon is probably influenced by the modern use of that term by baptist churches who have placed that label on the leaders of their churches. Clearly the term was used in the bible to describe one who serves. To turn that into a position of authority in the face of the Bible's teaching that women are not to teach or have authority over men makes the bible contradict itself. To allow the natural use of the word to be "serving" makes perfect sense for both passages.

The same goes for the word apostle. An apostle is a sent out one. All believers are sent out to minister, ie serve. Also, your abuse of Romans 16:7 is so far fetched it would be laughable were it not on a serious matter.

To imply that the use of one's house means that the person in the "authority" is equally weak. I have part of many home churches and the person who supplies the meeting place is always chosen because of the size of their house and not their ability to teach. Here again you are grabbing at straws to support YOUR doctrine.

I went through this issue during the 80's in the denomination that I grew up is. I left it because it became clear that the people were agenda driven and had become blinded to clear teaching because of their desire to get what they wanted. I would exhort you and anyone else reading this to see the danger in going this way.

I could go on, but I need to go and be a deacon to my family. :thumbs: I am trying to help my 5 daughters learn how to contend for the faith and prophesy regarding the wonderful truths of the gospel. I hope they will be outstanding in the church and help convert many.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Why is it when other people use verses it "proof texting"? I was merely responding to the "use" of Debra to "prove" that women can teach or have authority over men when there is a verse that needs no explanation that teaches the exact opposite. The "pro-women in authority people" are guilty of explaining away some clear truths because of their doctrine that women are able to teach and have authority over men.

I am sorry. I belive I misread your statement.

For example, your use of Phoebe being a deacon is probably influenced by the modern use of that term by baptist churches who have placed that label on the leaders of their churches. Clearly the term was used in the bible to describe one who serves. To turn that into a position of authority in the face of the Bible's teaching that women are not to teach or have authority over men makes the bible contradict itself. To allow the natural use of the word to be "serving" makes perfect sense for both passages.

Phoebe, a woman, was a "diakonon" of the church in Cenchrea. The same Greek word translated "servant" here, is translated "minister" in twenty-two other scriptures such as in Col 1:25. I do not know why translators used the word 'servant' here instead of 'minister' unless it was because they could not bring themselves to accept the idea that a woman could have been a minister.

The same goes for the word apostle. An apostle is a sent out one. All believers are sent out to minister, ie serve. Also, your abuse of Romans 16:7 is so far fetched it would be laughable were it not on a serious matter.

An Apostle is one who was specially chosen and sent by Jesus to spread and lead the early church. Apostles included the twelve Galileans and Saul of Tarsus (Paul) as well as others.

To imply that the use of one's house means that the person in the "authority" is equally weak. I have part of many home churches and the person who supplies the meeting place is always chosen because of the size of their house and not their ability to teach. Here again you are grabbing at straws to support YOUR doctrine.

I was using this simply to show that a house was used, and the woman is named, and not a man. Perhaps she was not married. Perhaps she was a window. Perhaps her husband was not a believer. We simply do not know.

I went through this issue during the 80's in the denomination that I grew up is. I left it because it became clear that the people were agenda driven and had become blinded to clear teaching because of their desire to get what they wanted. I would exhort you and anyone else reading this to see the danger in going this way.

This is always a danger, ins't it, regardless of which side of a discussion we are on?

I could go on, but I need to go and be a deacon to my family. :thumbs: I am trying to help my 5 daughters learn how to contend for the faith and prophesy regarding the wonderful truths of the gospel. I hope they will be outstanding in the church and help convert many.[/QUOTE]

Blessings on your and your family.

 

[BobRyan]

Hopefully you will consider all of the Bible and all of the women mentioned and their leadership roles in the church before you make a decision as you indicate above. Don't use proof texts, use all of the Bible. :thumbs:

Excellent point.

Deborah is both Judge AND prophetess in Israel -- no question that this was "leadership" annointed and appointed by God.

Who says "we can stop Him"??

crabtownboy

In Romans 16:1-2, Phoebe, a woman, was a "diakonon" of the church in Cenchrea. The same Greek word translated "servant"9 here, is translated "minister" in twenty-two other scriptures such as in Col 1:25 "Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God," NAS

Junia is called an apostle by Paul ... so certainly she was considered a leader.

Romans 16:7. "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding2 among the apostles3, and they were in Christ before I was." NIV4

An evangelist named Philip had four virgin daughters who were prophetesses. Acts 21:8,9.

Acts 2:18, "…both men and women…shall prophesy,"

Anna was also a prophetess, Luke 2:36.

At Ephesus, Priscilla (listed before her husband Aquila) taught the learned minister Apollos more accurately in the faith, Acts 18:18-26. Some translations add that this happened in their house but the Greek for Acts 18:26 only tells us that they took Apollos unto themselves and doesn't mention a house. The word used for explained or expounded is the same word used when Peter publicly explained the truth in Acts 11:47. Priscilla and Aquila also established a church in Rome, Romans 16:3-5, and risked their lives for Paul.

Great list!!:applause:

Also note that this was a perfect place to claim that "Aquilla taught/instructed Appollos while Priscilla simply listened in quiet obedience - after all - at no time do we have women instructing men -- just children".

Both Euodia and Syntyche evangelized publicly with Paul; they "contended at my side in the cause of the gospel". Both women zealously "contended", and the Greek word that Paul used conjures up verbal team wrestling! The word8 means "to wrestle in company with". They publicly wrestled with words right beside Paul as they all three publicly defended the faith! Their names are "in the book of life" together with a male co-worker named Clement, Phil 4:2-3 NIV

Paul greets Nympha among other church leaders and greets her house church. She is the only leader mentioned by name in her town. Col. 4:15

Lydia had a church meeting in her home, Acts 16:14, 15 and 40.

Chloe, whose converts are indicated as belonging to Chloe as a group or church, in 1 Cor 1:11 "For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you." NAS

Paul praises a household of ministers headed by a person named Stephanas or Stephana, a woman's name, the feminine form of Stephen. 1 Cor 16:15-16 "Now I urge you, brethren (you know the household of Stephanas that they were the first fruits of Achaia, and that they have devoted themselves for ministry to the saints), that you also be in subjection to such (meaning such ones, "men" is not in the Greek) and to everyone who helps in the work and labors."

Was Stephana having trouble with church members not treating her with respect because she was a female? Notice that Paul rejoiced that she and the two males with her (her sons?) had arrived to re-supply his needs.

Paul is scolding the Corinthians saying that they had not supplied what he needed but Stephana and the two men had arrived and provided for him. Paul concludes his rebuke by saying that people such as this should be acknowledged! (Again "such men", as some translations render, is not in the Greek text.)

Another woman who was serving as a pastor or evangelist was the woman John writes the book of 2 John to. He addresses her in Greek as "Eklektee kuria", the first word meaning "Chosen of God," Thayer's definition; and the second word, "Kuria" is the feminine form of "Kuros," which means "supreme in authority"16! John writes to her, "It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us." 2 John 1:4.

You have put a great list together - thanks!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

1. Is the issue that women are not allowed to “speak” or make a “sound” in church?
2. Or can they speak and sing and testify and call for the offering as long as they don’t “lead” out in “teaching men anything”?
3. If so – what text is used?


And what is the end result for Beth Moore and others who stand up and teach "while men are present in the audience"??

Should Beth "command the men to leave" and if she directs them in that way "should they obey her"??


in Christ,

Bob

 

[Crabtownboy]

The men should stay. Any man who does not believe he can learn from a woman is showing the height of arrogance and ignorance. Accept truth where you find it!

 

[gekko]

Zenas:

Jesus chose 12 men as his disciples. The 11 apostles chose a man to take the office of Judas. Jesus chose Saul, a man, as an apostle to the gentiles. He chose no women as apostles with authority over His church. If He had, I would be all for it because I expect they would do a pretty good job. But He did not choose any women and neither should we.

and in response i add:

If Jesus wanted women to minister, how come all His disciples were men? This question is actually raised from a misunderstanding of the word "disciple." Jesus had many women disciples. These include, Mary and Martha (John 11:1-4, and many other references as well. Mary and Martha, along with their brother Lazarus were among Jesus' closest friends). In addition, Jesus had many other women followers as well.
Luke 8:1-3, "And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and showing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils, And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance."
For the sake of brevity, I will not include other lists of names of women who followed Him. However the Scripture makes it clear there were many of them.
In another incident, Jesus motions to the crowds that followed him and said, "Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother" (Matthew 12:49-50).
In John 4:1-42, we see that it is a Samaritan woman who leads a large population of her community to Jesus.
Why didn't Jesus choose any women to be among His twelve original apostles? Jesus could not choose women to be among the twelve because it would not be wisdom for men and women to be travelling about together when many of them were single. Also, the twelve apostles fulfilled the "type and shadow" of the twelve patriarchs, so they had to be equal to men (Revelation 21:12, 14). However, this doesn't mean that he does not anoint women to fill an apostolic role today, as we already established in the case of Junia.
Jesus showed a great deal of respect for women--and children as well. In the culture of Jesus' day, these were often deemed "lower class" so to speak, and not worth paying serious attention to. However, Jesus repeatedly broke this unspoken rule. Because His actions were so unusual, those closest to Him were often surprised and annoyed.

 

[annsni]

I am sorry. I belive I misread your statement.


Phoebe, a woman, was a "diakonon" of the church in Cenchrea. The same Greek word translated "servant" here, is translated "minister" in twenty-two other scriptures such as in Col 1:25. I do not know why translators used the word 'servant' here instead of 'minister' unless it was because they could not bring themselves to accept the idea that a woman could have been a minister.

Let's take a look at that word "diakonon". It means "one who executes the commands of another, esp. of a master, a servant, attendant, minister

a) the servant of a king

b) a deacon, one who, by virtue of the office assigned to him by the church, cares for the poor and has charge of and distributes the money collected for their use

c) a waiter, one who serves food and drink

Now, let's see some of the other times it's used:

Matthew 20:25-27 "But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: "

I do not see that as being someone in authority - but a servant.

Matthew 22:13 "Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Again, I don't see a leader here.

Romans 13:4a "For he is the minister of God to thee for good."

Are those who are pastors leaders of God or servants?

Galatians 2:17 "But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid."

Yet again, if this word held any kind of authority or leadership, then Christ would be the leader of sin - and Paul is speaking clearly against that thought.

So, I think we can safely see that this term means "servant" and not "leader".

An Apostle is one who was specially chosen and sent by Jesus to spread and lead the early church. Apostles included the twelve Galileans and Saul of Tarsus (Paul) as well as others.

Correct. And as we all are believers, we are all commissioned to spread the Gospel. It doesn't mean that we have authority over others, however.

I went through this issue during the 80's in the denomination that I grew up is. I left it because it became clear that the people were agenda driven and had become blinded to clear teaching because of their desire to get what they wanted. I would exhort you and anyone else reading this to see the danger in going this way.

I will read Scripture and not go by what fad or politically correct thinking is going on. Women have an extremely important role in the church and I think churches that do not allow women to minister in their giftings are wrong. However, Scripture is clear that women are to not teach or have authority over the men - and the reason points back to creation. As I stated, the women in our church have a TREMENDOUS ministry and so many things would fail without them. But that doesn't mean that we have women in the pulpit teaching the congregation or having authority over the men. Period.

 

[gekko]

and so it boils down to this:

choosing leadership in the church is not a spiritual matter but a physical one.

for if you have a man with all the requirements to be a leader
and a woman with all the same (vice-versa in the case of "husband of one wife") requirements.

the man will be chosen.

 

[annsni]

and so it boils down to this:

choosing leadership in the church is not a spiritual matter but a physical one.

for if you have a man with all the requirements to be a leader
and a woman with all the same (vice-versa in the case of "husband of one wife") requirements.

the man will be chosen.

In accordance with Scripture - yep.

IF the position is one with a spiritual authority over men.

If it's not, then a woman working the job is perfectly fine.

 

[annsni]

In accordance with Scripture - yep.

IF the position is one with a spiritual authority over men.

If it's not, then a woman working the job is perfectly fine.

Guess I can't edit anymore or something - but I wanted to add that it's not just a physical thing but a spiritual thing as well. God told us and we obey Him.

 

[Rubato 1]

and so it boils down to this:

choosing leadership in the church is not a spiritual matter but a physical one.

for if you have a man with all the requirements to be a leader
and a woman with all the same (vice-versa in the case of "husband of one wife") requirements.

the man will be chosen.

This is stated in scripture somewhere...
J/K

There is a difference between a man and a woman which stretches beyond the physical features. You are a bit simplistic (or even sarcastic) to state that it is a physical matter, not spiritual... Besides that, the woman doesn't have the 'requirements to be a leader' if the leader is to be a man.

May I ask, Why would you or anyone else have such a big problem with this?

 

[trustitl]

and so it boils down to this:

choosing leadership in the church is not a spiritual matter but a physical one.

for if you have a man with all the requirements to be a leader
and a woman with all the same (vice-versa in the case of "husband of one wife") requirements.

the man will be chosen.

Would your poor logic also conclude children need not obey their parents for it is only a "physical matter"? How about us submitting to the governing authorities and paying our taxes?

The clear teaching of "I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence" is based on the next verses " For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." These are not acceptable to you so you resort to taking words such as deacon and minister to show that Paul could not have meant what he clearly said under inspiration of the Holy Spirit in writing scripture. These words clearly have meanings that do not make Paul to be contradicting himself.

 

[chuck2336]

These are not acceptable to you so you resort to taking words such as deacon and minister to show that Paul could not have meant what he clearly said under inspiration of the Holy Spirit in writing scripture. These words clearly have meanings that do not make Paul to be contradicting himself.

So Paul was not under inspiration of the Holy Spirit when he used the words deacon or minister?

Just asking

 

[trustitl]

So Paul was not under inspiration of the Holy Spirit when he used the words deacon or minister?

Just asking

Of course he was. The problem starts when we put a meaning to the word that is not intended. For example, if you were to have asked me what a deacon was 25 years ago I would have said it was one of the guys that takes the collection and counts it after church and a minister was the guy who talked and made a lot of people fall asleep.

What does a servant do? How does someone minister?

Just asking.

 

[annsni]

So Paul was not under inspiration of the Holy Spirit when he used the words deacon or minister?

Just asking

Correct - because he never used those words. It's the translators who used them.

 

[gekko]

so women are allowed to do children's ministries correct? do all of us agree on that?

but not authority over a man, spiritually?

at what age then.. does a male have to be where a woman teacher is not allowed spiritual authority over that male?

 

[Brother Bob]

so women are allowed to do children's ministries correct? do all of us agree on that?

but not authority over a man, spiritually?

at what age then.. does a male have to be where a woman teacher is not allowed spiritual authority over that male?

As long as they are the husband of one wife!

BBob,

 

[annsni]

so women are allowed to do children's ministries correct? do all of us agree on that?

but not authority over a man, spiritually?

at what age then.. does a male have to be where a woman teacher is not allowed spiritual authority over that male?

Well, Scripture doesn't give an age but I can tell you how we deal with this in our church.

Women teach mixed Sunday School for 2s and 3s (preschool), and 4s and 5s we have women who are the leaders in the class but when they break into smaller groups, we have some teen boys who lead the discussion time with the kids. From 1st grade on up (age 6 and up), we have enough men who will teach the boys through high school. Sunday School is during the worship service time so the kids start out in church with their parents for worship and the pastoral prayer then go downstairs. Then they have a bit of a skit, a couple more songs together - and then they break into their small groups. They have teen boys or men leading the boys and teen girls or women leading the girls. We're blessed in having enough men/teens to do this and I really appreciate the men who are working in my son's class. I think women would do fine with him (he's 7) but I think there's just something different about a man teaching a boy about God. Same as a woman teaching a girl about God. It's pretty neat, IMO.

 

[webdog]

at what age then.. does a male have to be where a woman teacher is not allowed spiritual authority over that male?

Depends on what age a child becomes a man. Our culture defines it at 18.

Let me throw this out to those who believe women can be elders...if my wife is commanded to submit to my authority as the head of home, and she becomes an elder at my church...does she have to submit to me, or I to her (remembering that the elders are the spiritual "rulers" of the church, and the husband is the spiritual "ruler" at home).

 

[trustitl]

so women are allowed to do children's ministries correct? do all of us agree on that?

but not authority over a man, spiritually?

at what age then.. does a male have to be where a woman teacher is not allowed spiritual authority over that male?

I would say that if you are truly desiring to do this according to God's will and ask, God will give you the wisdom that will help make this happen properly. However, if you are only asking to try make this appear to be impractical and nonsensical you will never go beyond the preconceived notion that you appeared to present earlier.

From your post #46
Why didn't Jesus choose any women to be among His twelve original apostles? Jesus could not choose women to be among the twelve because it would not be wisdom for men and women to be travelling about together when many of them were single. Also, the twelve apostles fulfilled the "type and shadow" of the twelve patriarchs, so they had to be equal to men (Revelation 21:12, 14). However, this doesn't mean that he does not anoint women to fill an apostolic role today, as we already established in the case of Junia.

You apparently are on the same "side" with the individual that made the weak case by saying that Jesus only chose men because of concerns over the appearence of impropriety of men and women travelling together. How foolish. Enough of your smug questions.