Women in Ministry

[Crabtownboy]

And she listens to me when I preach to her.

Good, we should all listen to each other and accept truth where we hear and find it.

 

[Beth]

I will consider your points

1. Her husband is not listed as either judge or prophet in Israel.

2. The fact that a married woman (be she Joyce Meyer, or Kay Arthur or Ann Graham Lotts...) is submitted to her husband while also having a public leadership role is not in question.



When one reads the book of judges one finds that in all cases the judge (even rotten ones like Samson) were "reflective of the spiritual condition" being "in need of judges".

There is nothing at all said in the Bible "I will appoint men judges over you if you are as bad as this -- and if you get worse then all the judges will be women".

In fact the "worst" period in Israel's history was the time of KING Manasseh according to the Bible.



Isaiah lived many centuries AFTER the time of David and Solomon all of whom came AFTER the times of the judges. Isaiah is not referring to "Israel before the times of the kings" rather Isaiah "may" have been referring to the fact that in several cases QUEENS were ruling Israel - but as with the case with "CHILDREN as their oppressors" this never happened literally it is simply a symbol.



Me too -



In Numbers 12 Miriam complains about Moses saying that SHE TOO was a prophet -- God does not deny this -- was "Israel sooooo bad at the time of Moses that Miriam was their prophet???".

Samuel and Deborah are listed as both being prophets AND judges -- who else was mentioned as BOTH a prophet AND a judge during the time of the judges?



If the argument is that a woman soldier is in same way saying a negative thing about men soldiers -- might be true.

In the case of the Judges 4 story the woman in question is NOT a prophet OR a judge, takes NO leadership role ANd actually says very little by way of "teaching" is it your argument that not only should women not actually say anything they should also not DO anything brave or courageous or else men are shamed?

Just out of curiousity - in the model you are suggesting - are "you" allowed to post your point of view here if it differs with me?:laugh:

In Christ,

Bob

I will consider your points prayerfully, but LOL, last time I looked I was married to CARL, not BOB, rofl!

 

[Beth]

cpntext

Another timeless and better wisdom of Paul's might have been that he was of his own humble opinion it is better not to marry. Just think what the world would have been today heeded more people his advise; would we have had the present overpopulation of the world; AND: Would we not have had a purer proclamation of the Gospel and a greater part of men, 'evangelised'? Just surmising ....

I believe, with all due respect, you are missing the context of this statement.

1Co 7:26 I suppose therefore that this is good for the present distress, I say, that it is good for a man so to be.

Something was going on at the time of Paul's writing...perhaps persecution?

318 anagkh anagke an-ang-kay’

from 303 and the base of 43; TDNT-1:344,55; n f

AV-necessity 7, must needs 3, distress 3, must of necessity 2, need + 2192 1, necessary 1, needful 1; 18

1) necessity, imposed either by the circumstances, or by law of duty regarding to one’s advantage, custom, argument
2) calamity, distress, straits

Has anyone else looked at this?

 

[gekko]

Women can be easily deceived

wow. heresy written all over it.

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so gerhard.explain - what is the woman's role in life? in marriage?

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And she listens to me when I preach to her.

that's cool.
i hope when i get married - that it goes both ways.
that she would listen to me when i preach to her.
and that i would listen to her when she preaches to me.

can always learn something from everybody. no?

 

[BobRyan]

I will consider your points prayerfully, but LOL, last time I looked I was married to CARL, not BOB, rofl!

So that means that the scope of your being submitted even in a teaching role (dare I say debating role??) is limited to the relationship between husband and wife - between you and Carl.

As you appear to argue in your response - you are free to express your views - differ and dare I say "debate" with others outside of Marriage even though "the other person" might be a ...... a..... well you know ... a --- Man! :laugh:


And that was my point all along. :applause:

But if you were inclined to take the path of saying that you dare not instruct me or differ with me in a way that I can actually - read, hear or detect just because you are a woman (whereas I am of superior gender in the church of unequal saints) -- then we would at least see the extent to which you are willing to take your own argument.

(My wife and I raised two daughters so this subject came up a lot. I was typically arguing for the "submit submit" POV whenever we got into debates during worship about some doctrinal question. That did not fly - my heart just wasn't in that POV. I wanted them to think for themselves just as you are doing )

in Christ,

Bob

 

[webdog]

Still waiting for an answer...

Let me throw this out to those who believe women can be elders...if my wife is commanded to submit to my authority as the head of home, and she becomes an elder at my church...does she have to submit to me, or I to her (remembering that the elders are the spiritual "rulers" of the church, and the husband is the spiritual "ruler" at home).

 

[gekko]

Let me throw this out to those who believe women can be elders...if my wife is commanded to submit to my authority as the head of home, and she becomes an elder at my church...does she have to submit to me, or I to her (remembering that the elders are the spiritual "rulers" of the church, and the husband is the spiritual "ruler" at home).

isn't it simple then?
my answer to that would be: both. she submits to you, and vice-versa.
basically what you're describing there anyways.

 

[webdog]

isn't it simple then?
my answer to that would be: both. she submits to you, and vice-versa.
basically what you're describing there anyways.

...so you are advocating confusion, then. Does Scripture state one ceases to be an elder once they leave the four walls of the church building? Does the husband cease to be the husband when he steps into the church?

 

[TCGreek]

Still waiting for an answer...

Let me throw this out to those who believe women can be elders...if my wife is commanded to submit to my authority as the head of home, and she becomes an elder at my church...does she have to submit to me, or I to her (remembering that the elders are the spiritual "rulers" of the church, and the husband is the spiritual "ruler" at home).

Webdog, this is a good one. :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

Still waiting for an answer...

Let me throw this out to those who believe women can be elders...if my wife is commanded to submit to my authority as the head of home, and she becomes an elder at my church...does she have to submit to me, or I to her (remembering that the elders are the spiritual "rulers" of the church, and the husband is the spiritual "ruler" at home).

In the home the husband is the spiritual head of the home.

Your wife in that case would have been appointed a role in the church but her role in the home remains unchanged as does yours.

 

[webdog]

In the home the husband is the spiritual head of the home.

Your wife in that case would have been appointed a role in the church but her role in the home remains unchanged as does yours.

I'm not making much sense of this. In the home my wife would still be an elder, too. If I have spiritual issues, I should talk with my elder...who is my wife...but she's supposed to submit to me...but I need to submit to her...:BangHead:

What is wrong with "If the plain sense makes common sense, seek no other sense"? The Scripture states "the husband of one wife". Quite simple. The roles of husband to wife, and elder to flock are quite understandable and explained in Scripture.

 

[gekko]

..so you are advocating confusion, then. Does Scripture state one ceases to be an elder once they leave the four walls of the church building? Does the husband cease to be the husband when he steps into the church?

no i'm not advocating wisdom. i don't mean to if it seems that i am.

i don't see scripture that says that one ceases to be an elder once they leave the building labelled as "church." - no the husband does not cease to be the husband when he steps into the church.

what i am saying is this - that wives are to submit to husbands as husbands are to love their wives, and it's in loving their wives that husbands should (out of pure common sense and logic) submit to their wives.

like i said. we can learn from everybody. even our wives. no?

(i gotta go shopping - then hangin out with friends the rest of the day - so i won't be able to respond till midnight PST)

God bless!

 

[webdog]

I agree both husband and wives are to submit to each other in love...but when it comes to spiritual issues, Scripture is quite clear.

Don't spend too much

 

[Beth]

A Christian forum isn't a church

So that means that the scope of your being submitted even in a teaching role (dare I say debating role??) is limited to the relationship between husband and wife - between you and Carl.

As you appear to argue in your response - you are free to express your views - differ and dare I say "debate" with others outside of Marriage even though "the other person" might be a ...... a..... well you know ... a --- Man! :laugh:


And that was my point all along. :applause:

But if you were inclined to take the path of saying that you dare not instruct me or differ with me in a way that I can actually - read, hear or detect just because you are a woman (whereas I am of superior gender in the church of unequal saints) -- then we would at least see the extent to which you are willing to take your own argument.

(My wife and I raised two daughters so this subject came up a lot. I was typically arguing for the "submit submit" POV whenever we got into debates during worship about some doctrinal question. That did not fly - my heart just wasn't in that POV. I wanted them to think for themselves just as you are doing )

in Christ,

Bob

LOL Bob, I understood SOME of what you wrote.

It is important to remember that this is a public forum, NOT a church. The Scriptures which we are discussing pertain to conduct within an assembly.

 

[gekko]

ok - havn't left yet - haha. leaving real soon though.

I agree both husband and wives are to submit to each other in love...but when it comes to spiritual issues, Scripture is quite clear

i'm still trying to understand this here.

"but when it comes to spiritual issues" -- what do you mean by that?
i don't know if i understand how a wife is to submit to her husband when it comes to spiritual issues. how the man has 'spiritual authority' over his wife.

what does that look like according to scripture?
could you give an example of what that looks like in today's time-period?

honestly trying to understand this now.
God bless.

and now i must depart. hehe.

 

[trustitl]

Here again you are reverting to carnal thinking in understanding spiritual truths. Your logic is never going to get you to understand spiritual truths.

If you are going 40 MPH is a 25 MPH zone I cannot pull you over. I do not have the authority to do that. A police officer plays that role in our society. He and I are equal under the law but do not have the same spheres of authority. He cannot come into my home and make decisions regarding my family.


Your argument is based an a flawed suppostion that everybody is the same. Sounds like feminism and socialism is having an effect on your thinking.

The essence of the Gospel is not that we are all the same. It is that we can become what God intended us to be. Ironically and sadly your notion is close to the lie that Satan lured Eve with. Eve was tempted with being more than she was created to be and it sounded great to her. It is when we let God be God and follow his ways that we can have the freedom found when walking in truth.

I used to use this on the middle school students that I taught:
everything doesn't have to be equal to be fair.

Proverbs 3:5-6
Trust in the LORD with all your heart
And do not lean on your own understanding.
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He will make your paths straight.

Still seeing a lot of carnal reasoning :tear: .

 

[gekko]

are there verses that speak about women not being allowed to be a pastor or an elder?

does it say that women can't be pastors or elders?

(these questions from a good friend of mine - no not from me. hehe)

also - what are all the scriptures in the new testament that talk about women in ministry? (which includes things about pastors and elders - stuff like that) - i want to read it all over - get a fresh start kind of deal.

also - is there anything in the old testament that talks about the same kind of thing?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

1 Timothy 3 says the Bishop is to be the husband of one wife, not the wife of one husband.

The Bishop is essentially the same as an Elder or Pastor.

Anna in the temple = Luke 2
Woman at the well = John 4
Mary Magdalene and Mary = John 20
Four daughters of Philip = Acts 21

There are other instances, but that is a starter. Keep in mind that they were not pastors, they only ministered.

Deborah was first woman judge in the OT. Book of Judges. Keep in mind she was judge because Barak was weak and would not go as judge.

Rahab the harlot was used = the scarlet thread of redemption.

 

[Beth]

Exactly!

1 Timothy 3 says the Bishop is to be the husband of one wife, not the wife of one husband.

The Bishop is essentially the same as an Elder or Pastor.

Anna in the temple = Luke 2
Woman at the well = John 4
Mary Magdalene and Mary = John 20
Four daughters of Philip = Acts 21

There are other instances, but that is a starter. Keep in mind that they were not pastors, they only ministered.

Deborah was first woman judge in the OT. Book of Judges. Keep in mind she was judge because Barak was weak and would not go as judge.

Rahab the harlot was used = the scarlet thread of redemption.

This is the point I was making about Deborah.....I just reread this morning in my Bible study the first half of Judges, and continued to be convicted that Deborah's being judge was reflective of Israel's spiritual state. I agree that in particular male leadership was lacking at that time and that Barak did not enjoy a full reward of defeating Sisera because of his lack of faith and courage.

There is a huge difference between being a bishop and other areas of service. Obviously, women can and have ministered in wonderful ways...prophetesses, supporting Christ financially, older women raising up younger women in the faith, raising and discipling children, washing the feet of the saints.....Scripture, however, forbids us to be elders/pastors/bishops.

Your sister in Christ,
Beth

 

[trustitl]

are there verses that speak about women not being allowed to be a pastor or an elder?

does it say that women can't be pastors or elders?

(these questions from a good friend of mine - no not from me. hehe)

also - what are all the scriptures in the new testament that talk about women in ministry? (which includes things about pastors and elders - stuff like that) - i want to read it all over - get a fresh start kind of deal.

also - is there anything in the old testament that talks about the same kind of thing?

Does this friend of yours really want to walk in truth? Or are they dead set in their mind and just trying to prove that women can do whatever they want because there is no verse that explicitly says "Women cannot be an elders"?

To undestand this takes an open mind. Yes thats right. Many times people who say that women are limited in the roles they can fill are called close minded, but I find that just the opposite is true. In todays society, someone who is willing to accept God's ways is very open minded.

Concerning your statement of wanting to "get a fresh start" I say that is the best thing I've read on this subject so far. I hope it is sincere.

I would say that you need to begin with your understanding of spheres of authority. We need to accept that there are God ordained structures designed by the creator. Most likely you accept this in principle but are not willing to see that it applies to the church. In addition, a person who has authority is not better or more important that a person who doesn't have that authority, they just have authority that others don't. I am not better or more important than my children, I just have authority over them.

Also, we need to know what authority is as well as what it isn't.

Websters 1828
AUTHOR'ITY, n. [L. auctoritas.]
1. Legal power, or a right to command or to act; as the authority of a prince over subjects, and of parents over children. Power; rule; sway.

This shows us that authority comes from another source. It is a legal right.

RIGHT, a. rite. [L. rectus, from the root of rego, properly to strain or stretch, whence straight.]
2. According to the law or will of God, or to the standard of truth and justice; as, to judge right.
The word rule has sadly taken on a negative connotation over the years because of the many poor rulers in history: Hitler, Nero, Robert Mugabe, Stalin... However, a ruler is what we use when we want to be precise in drawing a straight line or measuring. It is a good things when used properly. Other times it is abused such as when my 3 year old son goes after his older sisters with one.

RULE, n. [L. regula, from rego, to govern, that is, to stretch, strain or make straight.]
3. To manage; to conduct, in almost any manner.

In regards to men and women, God has given the "legal" right to rule home and church to the man. I were to say manage it may be more acceptable because of our understanding of the word according to our experiences. I think it is a good word for this topic.

Here it is important to distinguish the difference between the church and Israel and how Deborah could "judge" Israel. Also, if the person given authority is failing to lead, the source of the authority has the responsiblity to replace the leader with another.

MAN'AGE, v.t.
1. To conduct; to carry on; to direct the concerns of; as, to manage a farm; to manage the affairs of a family.

I think Paul makes it clear that he understood this was his role in the church.

Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand. II Cor. 1:24

I will stop here, but I think it is also important to reconsider what we think "church" is. But, for the sake of time and space that may come later.

"For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God" Col 1:9-10

God bless.