When You See Jerusalem Surrounded.....

[Winman]

Yea, you learned all your pre-mill-pre trib dispie view straight from the Bible. Nobody ever taught it to you and you never read a book on it. You read Daniel 9 and noticed that huge gap all by yourself. Please.

I have owned one commentary in my life, Matthew Henry, and that was given me as a gift. I almost never read it, and do not even know what happened to it, I haven't seen it in nearly 15 years. It may be around the house somewhere, but I don't know where.

Look, I don't need anybody to teach me that Jesus did not appear in the clouds in 70 A.D.. That didn't happen. And if you read the accounts Jesus gave such as Matthew chapter 24 there are many verses that indicate he is speaking of end of the world, not the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

Matt 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

The disciples were asking Jesus about the end of the world, and he was answering them. He was not speaking about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

And Daniel is speaking of the end times also.

Dan 10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

And the book of Revelations should end any questions on the matter. It was written after the destruction of Jerusalem and speaks of things future.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Yes. Don't listen to me. Read the scriptures for yourself and ask God to help you understand them properly. I am a man just like yourself, I am quite fallible.

I agree, and the same is true of Gill or anyone else, including yourself, who makes commentary on the Scripture. I have found commentators such as Gill or others say things well, or people use their quotes as aids in explaining their understanding of the Scripture.

THey are not being put forward for any other reason.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I have owned one commentary in my life, Matthew Henry, and that was given me as a gift. I almost never read it, and do not even know what happened to it, I haven't seen it in nearly 15 years. It may be around the house somewhere, but I don't know where.

You seem to boast of this, but to me its a statement of arrogance. Why do you think so much of things that the Holy Spirit teaches you, but so little of what He has taught others?

 

[Grasshopper]

I have owned one commentary in my life, Matthew Henry, and that was given me as a gift. I almost never read it, and do not even know what happened to it, I haven't seen it in nearly 15 years. It may be around the house somewhere, but I don't know where.

Well, don't bother looking because he would agree with me on Matthew 24.

Look, I don't need anybody to teach me that Jesus did not appear in the clouds in 70 A.D.. That didn't happen.

Not only do you not read commentaries you don't even give us the courtesy of reading our posts and trying to understand what we are saying. You are close-minded otherwise you would have gotten by now what is meant by "coming on the clouds".

And if you read the accounts Jesus gave such as Matthew chapter 24 there are many verses that indicate he is speaking of end of the world, not the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

Matt 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Once again you prove my point. How many times must you be told that the greek word is "age" NOT WORLD!! Oh wait, Greek texts are written by men and should not be used, right?

Mat 24:3Καθημένου δὲ αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ τοῦ ὄρους τῶν ἐλαιῶν προσῆλθον αὐτῷ οἱ μαθηταὶ κατ᾿ ἰδίαν λέγοντες· εἰπὲ ἡμῖν πότε ταῦτα ἔσται, καὶ τί τὸ σημεῖον τῆς σῆς παρουσίας καὶ τῆς συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος;

Mat 24:3καθημενου2521 ......του3588 T-GSM αιωνος165 N-GSM

G165 αἰών aiōn

Got it now? I can't dumb it down any farther.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

The disciples were asking Jesus about the end of the world, and he was answering them. He was not speaking about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

End of the age, not world. Peter also spoke of this end:

1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things has drawn near. Therefore be of sound mind, and be sensible to prayers.

Oh yea, we must run "near" through your filter of 2Peter 3 right?

And Daniel is speaking of the end times also.

Dan 10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

The writer of Hebrews identified the "last days" for us:

Heb 1:2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds,

Ooops, an inspired NT writer puts the last days in a 1st century context. What is a literalist to do? Probably ignore it and not address it.

And the book of Revelations should end any questions on the matter. It was written after the destruction of Jerusalem and speaks of things future.

They say the definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over again and expecting different results.:BangHead: I won't bother explaining the dating of Revelation again.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly(1000s of years in man's time) come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads and hears the Words of this prophecy, and the ones keeping the things written in it, for the time is near (but still 1000s of years away in man's time).

 

[Winman]

Grasshopper, believe whatever you want. It is not that I can't answer you, it is actually quite easy to show volumes of scripture that will prove you wrong. Won't do a bit of good, your mind is made up. I have to go to work shortly, and I am tired of arguing with you.

 

[kyredneck]

.....I am tired of arguing with you.

GOOD! Go read Josephus or somethin' productive, get out of that box you're in!

 

[kyredneck]

.... Everything will pan out and the true believers will be vindicated at the Great White Throne when the chaste Bride of Jesus Christ, the New Jerusalem, the Glory Church [as B.H. Carroll would say], descends from heaven, and the Triune God will tabernacle with man.

Amen Brother.

 

[Grasshopper]

Grasshopper, believe whatever you want. It is not that I can't answer you, it is actually quite easy to show volumes of scripture that will prove you wrong. Won't do a bit of good, your mind is made up. I have to go to work shortly(1000's of years), and I am tired of arguing with you.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

:wavey:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWsJcg-g1pg

 

[Robert Snow]

Amazing! I don't know how many times Winman totally ignored explaining passages like:

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mar 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

I guess terms like "shortly" or "this generation" only mean what they say when they don't interfere with Dispensational theology!


Nor did Winman comment on:

Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Isa 13:12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

I wonder if this actually happened during the captivity of Israel and Judah? I guess since Winman only believes in a "literal" interpretation of the Scripture it must have happened. Maybe we have a new sun and set of stars.

Winman ignored every Scripture that does not follow the tenets of Darby, Scofield and other futurists.

In another thread I commented on the fact that Winman could not prove that Revelation was not written before the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. He ignored that posting as well. It looks like anything that goes against the eschatology of Winman is simply ignored.

 

[HankD]

Every system of eschatology has its problems.

No matter which we choose we have to "allegorize" certain passages (even whole chapters) or "redefine" certain words to make them fit one's view.

It wasn't so different just before Jesus came the first time with all the confusion concerning the "Messiah" and His earthly role and the surrounding events.

Take for instance:

NKJV Matthew 17

10 And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?"
11 Jesus answered and said to them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things.
12 "But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands."
13 Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist.

Yet John the Baptist said:
John 1
19 Now this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, "Who are you?"
20 He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, "I am not the Christ."
21 And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."

However Jesus had previously said:

NKJV Matthew 11
12 "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.
13 "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 "And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come.

In other words John the Baptist could have/would have been Elijah had Israel been willing to receive him (of course the Messiah had to suffer first so it all worked out OK anyway).

It was confusing then, it's confusing now.
One thing in which we can all agree - God is not confused.

Like someone said "it will all work out in the end" and then those in the millennial age will say "How come they couldn't figure this millennial reign out in the church age?" (more humor).

HankD​

 

[kyredneck]

Every system of eschatology has its problems.....
...those in the millennial age will say "How come they couldn't figure this millennial reign out in the church age?" (more humor).

HankD[/LEFT]

Heheh, and that's the problem I have with the pre-mil view; it's pure speculation. (even more humor)

 

[Grasshopper]

Every system of eschatology has its problems.

No matter which we choose we have to "allegorize" certain passages (even whole chapters) or "redefine" certain words to make them fit one's view.

I agree, there are problems with every view. However I think it is more troublesome to allegorize time statements than other type of passages.

It wasn't so different just before Jesus came the first time with all the confusion concerning the "Messiah" and His earthly role and the surrounding events.

Agreed, the OT saints and Prophets were living in the types and shadows world where as we live in the realities of those types and shadows.

Take for instance:

NKJV Matthew 17

10 And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?"
11 Jesus answered and said to them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things.
12 "But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands."
13 Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist.​

Yet John the Baptist said:
John 1
19 Now this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, "Who are you?"
20 He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, "I am not the Christ."
21 And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."​

However Jesus had previously said:​

NKJV Matthew 11
12 "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.
13 "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 "And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come.​

In other words John the Baptist could have/would have been Elijah had Israel been willing to receive him (of course the Messiah had to suffer first so it all worked out OK anyway).​

No, John was "the Elijah to come". It was not conditional on Israel's acceptance. John was not the physical reincarnation of Elijah, that is why he said No. He was however the "Elijah to come" of Malachi which as you noted Jesus affirms. He was to precede the coming "day of the Lord". Which was a day of judgment on the Jews.

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

That wrath came in His coming of judgment on Jerusalem in AD70 within His generation and before some standing there saw death.​

It was confusing then, it's confusing now.

Not really, at least not that part.​

One thing in which we can all agree - God is not confused.

:thumbsup:​

Like someone said "it will all work out in the end" and then those in the millennial age will say "How come they couldn't figure this millennial reign out in the church age?" (more humor).

Hank, does the New heavens and New Earth come before the Millennial reign or after?​

 

[HankD]

Hank, does the New heavens and New Earth come before the Millennial reign or after?

Both as it has 2 aspects,

The Millennium is a part of the new heaven and new earth, while it is an "earthly' aspect of the beginning of the new heaven and new earth it's purpose is to bring the fulfilment of the unfulilled earthly promises to Israel as a nation (Revelation 20) which will end in the final rebellion of satan and those who will follow him even out of the reign of Christ over the entropic earth.

Revelation 21-22 are devoted to the eternal state which I will admit is in language we can understand but representing those things which will require a resurrected and glorified body and mind to fully understand.

Many present existing beggarly elements will be found in the eternal state but perfected and glorified, all things will be made "new".

And yes, just as Abraham sought that city not built with hands (and not the age of the law or the church or the millennium) I too look for that final culmination of time into eternity (going from Revelation 20 to Revelation 21-22):

Revelation 20

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.​

KJV Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.​

2 Peter

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.​

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and theelements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?​

I see the "day of the Lord" in 2 Peter 10 as 1000 years in duration as stated in 2 Peter 8.


HankD

 

[Winman]

To those who say I do not answer their posts, I am going to try to show that some of the proof texts offered here do not support that Jesus returned in 70 A.D.

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

This verse is easy to explain. You have completely pulled it out of context and I will show that. This also applies to Mark chapter 9 and Luke chapter 9 where this verse is repeated.

The answer is simple, just keep reading. Matt 16:28 is the last verse in chapter 16. But go to the very next chapter and you will see this statement of Jesus fulfilled.

Matt 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

In all three cases where this verse is shown, it directly goes to the story of Jesus on the mount of transfiguration. The three disciples who saw Jesus in his glory before their death were Peter, James and John.

The same is shown in Luke, this story directly follows the verse quoted.

Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

And in Mark 9

Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.
7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.
9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.

So, in all three cases where this statement of Jesus is shown in scripture, it immediately goes to the story of Jesus being transfigured on the mount. This is what Jesus was speaking about. He was not saying the disciples would remain alive until he returned in 70 A.D..

The next verses provided are your best argument, but they do not necessarily support Jesus coming in 70 A.D..

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

This verse is also shown in Mark 13 and Luke 21. I will admit that it is your best verse. On the face of it, it does seem to support that Jesus was telling his disciples and others who heard him that the present generation would not pass away until he returned. Most take this to be a 25-40 year generation.
And in most of the scriptures (but not all), when the word generation is used, in the majority of cases (but not all) it stands for a 25-40 year generation. There are exceptions, and most of these exceptions were made by Jesus himself.

Luke 11:47 Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.
48 Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.
49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

Jesus here spoke of "this generation", but he could not have been speaking only of those alive at the time. How do I know this? Because in verse 50 Jesus said the blood of the prophets from the foundation of the world, and in verse 51 he mentions the blood of Abel and said it would be required of "this generation"

God never holds a man accountable for the sins of his father or vice versa.

Deut 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

The Jews were forbidden to put a father to death for the sins of their children, and they were forbidden to put children to death for the sins of their father. So Jesus here was speaking of mankind. In fact, I do not personally believe he was speaking of the Jews only. The Jews were not descended from Cain who killed Abel, they were descended from Seth.

So I believe Jesus is speaking of mankind here, especially unbelieving mankind, not the persons who happened to be alive at the moment he spoke.

Jesus used the word "generation" in Matthew 23. It is clear here that he is speaking of more than a single generation.

Matt 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

We see John the Baptist use the word "generation" in a similar manner.

Matt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Here John the Baptist called the Pharisees and Sadducees a generation of vipers. He is saying they are like their fathers, evil and unbelieving, he is not speaking of only men who were alive at the time. And you see that above when Jesus spoke to the Pharisees and said "truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers" and "ye are the children of them".

And when Jesus used the word "generation" in Matthew 24, he was not only speaking of men past and present, but future as well. What is the very next thing he says?

Matt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Directly after Jesus says this generation shall not pass till all be fulfilled, he goes to the end of the world, not the destruction of Jerusalem. This is also shown in Mark and Luke where this verse is quoted again.

This is not a local event Jesus is speaking of, it will be a catastrophe on the scale of Noah's flood. And Jesus shows that.

Matt 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Noah's flood was not a local event, it killed all men on earth. And it will be the same when Jesus returns. So the destruction of Jersualem as bad as it was, was not what Jesus was speaking about. When he returns the whole world will know it.

 

[Grasshopper]

To those who say I do not answer their posts, I am going to try to show that some of the proof texts offered here do not support that Jesus returned in 70 A.D.

Glad to see you are no longer tired of arguing.

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

This verse is easy to explain. You have completely pulled it out of context and I will show that.

Keep that phrase "out of context" in mind.

The answer is simple, just keep reading. Matt 16:28 is the last verse in chapter 16. But go to the very next chapter and you will see this statement of Jesus fulfilled.

Matt 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

In all three cases where this verse is shown, it directly goes to the story of Jesus on the mount of transfiguration. The three disciples who saw Jesus in his glory before their death were Peter, James and John.

So the verse after Matthew 16:28 must me kept in context, but what about the verse that precedes it? Do we pretend it is not there? Lets add it to our context and see if it supports your Transfiguration theory.

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Are you telling me it happened at the Transfiguration? Were there angels at the Transfiguration? Did He reward everyman at the Transfiguration?
Here is what you must do. Ignore the fact that verse 27 is in the "context" of verse 28. Also you must insert a 2000+year gap inbetween verses 27 and 28. (Dispies like gaps) Then you must flip the order of occurance. Verse 28 occurs thousands of years before verse 27! So actually an honest use of context destroys your claim.

Secondly, why did Jesus say "some" instead of "all"? It occured 6 days later! Do you really think that many died and only some were left before the Transfiguration occured? However if He was speaking of an event say 40 years later, "some standing" would make perfect sense.

Finally, what does the Transfiguration picture? It pictured the Law(Moses) and the Prophets(Elijah) passing away and giving way to the New Covenant(Jesus). That is what happened in AD70! The transfiguration was a picture of His coming at the time of the passing away of the Old Covenant.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

 

[Grasshopper]

Part 2

This verse is also shown in Mark 13 and Luke 21. I will admit that it is your best verse. On the face of it, it does seem to support that Jesus was telling his disciples and others who heard him that the present generation would not pass away until he returned.

Hypocrisy rears its ugly head again, wasn't it you who lectured me on this:

"You know, I've noticed a few people here spend great energy and time trying to convince people that the scriptures do not really mean what they say. Whenever you show them something from scripture that even a child could easily understand, their response is "that doesn't really mean that"."

So now we come to a verse that you even claim is clear in its meaning but are going to tell us "that doesn't really mean that".

What does Thomas Ice ( http://www.pre-trib.org/ ) say about "this generation"?

"While it is true that other uses of "this generation" refer to Christ's contemporaries, that is because they are historical texts. The use of "this generation" in the Olivet Discourse in the fig tree passages are prophetic texts. In fact, when one compares the historical use of "this generation" at the beginning of the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 23:36 (which is an undisputed reference to A.D.70) with the prophetic use in 24:34, a contrast is obvious." [Ice and Gentry, The Great Tribulation Past or Future (Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1999), 103-104.]

Futurist Ice says it is undisputed that Matthew 23:36 refers to AD70. What he fails to realize is that both Matthew 23:36 and Matthew 24:34 are both prophetic texts. So even futurist disagree with you.

Luke 11:47 Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.
48 Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.
49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.


Jesus here spoke of "this generation", but he could not have been speaking only of those alive at the time. How do I know this? Because in verse 50 Jesus said the blood of the prophets from the foundation of the world, and in verse 51 he mentions the blood of Abel and said it would be required of "this generation"

What part of "you" do you not understand? What is the "context"? Is He not speaking to the Pharisees and scribes?


Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Luk 11:43 Woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye love the uppermost seats in the synagogues, and greetings in the markets.
Luk 11:44 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them.

It was to Israel the prophets and apostles were sent (vs. 49) it was Israel to whom the guilt fell for killing the prophets.



Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.



Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Act 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

Yes, those pesky pronouns can cause problems. It is clear who this wrath would fall on and it wasn't some generic mankind.

God never holds a man accountable for the sins of his father or vice versa.

Well, no matter who you believe it speaks of it is clear that it is the "you" of verse 35 that will be held accountable for the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias.

So I believe Jesus is speaking of mankind here, especially unbelieving mankind, not the persons who happened to be alive at the moment he spoke.

The text clearly says otherwise.

 

[Grasshopper]

Part 3

Jesus used the word "generation" in Matthew 23. It is clear here that he is speaking of more than a single generation.

Matt 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Different greek word than found in Matthew 34.
G1081
γέννημα
gennēma
Thayer Definition:
1) that which has been born or begotten
1a) the offspring or progeny of men or animals
1b) the fruits of the earth, the produce of agriculture
Part of Speech: noun neuter

Matt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Here John the Baptist called the Pharisees and Sadducees a generation of vipers. He is saying they are like their fathers, evil and unbelieving, he is not speaking of only men who were alive at the time.

Exactly right! It is a different greek word for generation. You keep defeating your own argument. Why do you think Matthew then uses a different greek word for generation in Matthew 24?

Matt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Directly after Jesus says this generation shall not pass till all be fulfilled, he goes to the end of the world, not the destruction of Jerusalem. This is also shown in Mark and Luke where this verse is quoted again.

He doesn't go to the end of the world, he goes to the passing of "heaven and earth". Very different things. "heaven and earth is a Hebrew idiom for the Old Covenant.

Isa 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

This is not a local event Jesus is speaking of, it will be a catastrophe on the scale of Noah's flood. And Jesus shows that.

Matt 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Noah's flood was not a local event, it killed all men on earth. And it will be the same when Jesus returns. So the destruction of Jersualem as bad as it was, was not what Jesus was speaking about. When he returns the whole world will know it.

And your final fatal flaw, if it is the end of the world why does Jesus tell them to go to the mountains to escape?

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Would do no good at all if Heaven and Earth, as you believe, are destroyed. "Hurry up, run to the mountains because the end of the world is coming and the earth is getting ready to be destroyed!" Have you never thought this through?

 

[kyredneck]

Grasshopper........... you're good! Thanks for the info.

 

[HankD]

Part 3


Different greek word than found in Matthew 34.
G1081
γέννημα
gennēma
Thayer Definition:
1) that which has been born or begotten
1a) the offspring or progeny of men or animals
1b) the fruits of the earth, the produce of agriculture
Part of Speech: noun neuter



Exactly right! It is a different greek word for generation. You keep defeating your own argument. Why do you think Matthew then uses a different greek word for generation in Matthew 24?

He doesn't go to the end of the world, he goes to the passing of "heaven and earth". Very different things. "heaven and earth is a Hebrew idiom for the Old Covenant.

Isa 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.



And your final fatal flaw, if it is the end of the world why does Jesus tell them to go to the mountains to escape?

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Would do no good at all if Heaven and Earth, as you believe, are destroyed. "Hurry up, run to the mountains because the end of the world is coming and the earth is getting ready to be destroyed!" Have you never thought this through?

Good points grasshopper.

Matthew 24 is problematic for everyone.

Matthew 24:16 is indeed concerned with the sack of Jerusalem circa AD70 by Titus.

However somewhere before Matthew 24:29 (If these signs are literal and i believe they are) the venue changes to the end of the "world" because these signs have not yet been witnessed and "every eye" has not seen Him coming in glory. I believe verse 24 is the pivotal point.

"This generation" being the generation which is present at His second coming in power and glory

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

Revelation 1:

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.​

The most problematic for "futurists" is the passage luke 9:7​

Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.​

Now some like to point to the transfiguration as that fulfilment.
There may be something to that if both Moses and Elijah were in the crowd being preached to at the time. It's possible but unlikely.​

Most likely Jesus is referring to the sending/coming of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost as the visible sign to Israel that the kingdom of God had taken on a different earthly manifestation distinct from Israel:​

Jesus early on in His ministry indicating that the citizens of the "kingdom" were to be sown in "the world" (as opposed to Israel).​

Matthew 13
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;​

The Book of Acts specifically affirming this idea as well: Acts 2:47 showing that the church (the earthly manifestation of the kingdom) had been established as a local and visible testimony that the "kingdom" of Matthew 13 of which Jesus spoke had arrived in both Israel and among the gentiles.​

Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.​

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.​

Acts 20:25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.​

Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.​

Acts 28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.​

HankD​

 

[Winman]

Grasshopper

First of all, there is no need to constantly write in giant font. It actually makes your posts difficult to read, and does not make it more convincing.

Second, I don't know Greek, and I imagine most who post here do not know Greek. You may consider yourself an authority or expert on Greek, and not knowing Greek I have no way of knowing if that is true or not. Someone who is an expert on Greek might come on here and say you are not skillful at all in this language, I don't know. But the point is, you are not going to get anywhere with someone like me arguing from the Greek. I believe God preserved the scriptures. I believe God intended the scriptures to be written in English for all the English speaking peoples. I believe the English version infallable. Now, I know you will probably disagree, and that is another subject altogether. But you aren't going to persuade me of anything arguing from the Greek. So, if you are going to answer me, I prefer you just stick to English.

Exactly right! It is a different greek word for generation. You keep defeating your own argument. Why do you think Matthew then uses a different greek word for generation in Matthew 24?

How am I defeating my own argument? My argument was that the word generation does not always mean the generation alive at the time. You confirmed my argument. You agreed that I was correct.

He doesn't go to the end of the world, he goes to the passing of "heaven and earth". Very different things. "heaven and earth is a Hebrew idiom for the Old Covenant.

Isa 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

I simply disagree with you here. The scriptures are clear that the heavens and earth that are now will be destroyed and there will be a new heavens and earth.

2 Pet 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

This is hardly an idiom. This verse is very specific and shows it will be a real, physical event. You may not believe this, but I do. Perhaps the apostle Peter was not as knowledgeable as you and did not understand the Lord was using an idiom.

Zech 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

This actually sounds very similar to the effects of the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. This hardly happened in 70 A.D.

And your final fatal flaw, if it is the end of the world why does Jesus tell them to go to the mountains to escape?

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Would do no good at all if Heaven and Earth, as you believe, are destroyed. "Hurry up, run to the mountains because the end of the world is coming and the earth is getting ready to be destroyed!" Have you never thought this through?

The saved will be brought through this destruction, just as Noah was brought through the flood that destroyed the whole earth. And this is exactly what Jesus compared his coming to.

Matt 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

As I said before, this proves Jesus was not speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.. It would be misleading of the Lord to compare the destruction of Jerusalem with Noah's flood. The people he spoke this to clearly understood this to be speaking of a worldwide destruction.

In Luke 17 the Lord says that it will both be day and night when he comes, showing he is speaking of a worldwide event.

Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Jesus said he will come suddenly like lightning. It will be both day and night. Some people will be on their housetops, others working in the field. Women will be grinding. This is daytime. Other men will be in bed, it will be night where they are.

This is a worldwide event Jesus is speaking of, not a local event.