Bishop John Spong re-thinks Heaven & Hell

[Amy.G]

I learned most of what I now believe about Catholicism right here on the Baptist Board while I was still Baptist. This was back in the day before 'The Great Purge'.

Thank you, but I want to know where BS learned what he believes.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Where did he say that? Let's look at the scripture.

:tear:

the body of this death

:tear: :saint:

 

[Amy.G]

:tear::tear: :saint:

The wages of sin is death. The body will die because it is sinful flesh. It is dying now. When it goes to the grave, you will be set free from the fleshly temptations that cause you to sin. It's a good thing.:thumbs:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The wages of sin is death. The body will die because it is sinful flesh. It is dying now. When it goes to the grave, you will be set free from the fleshly temptations that cause you to sin. It's a good thing.:thumbs:

Well its nice to know I'll be free of being a zombie. Thanks. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[BillySunday1935]

Your view is not based on scripture. That is why it is fallible.

Let me make sure I have this correct. You believe that my interpretation of scripture is not based upon scripture and, as such, my interpretation is fallible. Then, conversely, your interpretation IS based upon scripture and is therefore INFALLIBLE. Good luck with that argument.

I did. Post #60.

And I refuted that in post #61.

I can't be both. You said purgatory purification takes place before heaven, then you said it takes place in heaven. Total contradiction.

OK – let me clarify. The cleansing takes place before you can enter heaven, yet purgatory is part of heaven. If you are covered with mud and your family is assembled in the formal living room of your house for a family wedding, then you would need to take a shower to clean up before entering therein. Does that mean that you are not in your house when taking that shower? No – yet you are separated from those in attendance until you are cleaned up. Is it a mystery? Yes – but so is the Trinity, the hypostatic union, and a host of other things that are beyond our comprehension.

Glad you agree. Now please start supplying the scripture to support your beliefs. I still would like to see where the Bible speaks about a "compartment" in heaven that purifies people. How about an outside source? Do you even have that?

Well, here is what I provided in post #59:

If sin still clings to Christians (Heb 12:1), but there is no sin in heaven (Rev. 21:27), there must be a purification that takes place after one’s death and before one enters heaven. Even if it were "in the blink of an eye," this final stage of sanctification must take place, so those who die in God’s favor may be cleansed if any affection for sin remains in them.

Paul mentions this in 1 Cor. 3:13–15: "Each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

Paul’s thought calls to mind the image of God as the refiner’s fire and fuller’s soap mentioned in Malachi 3:2. The fuller’s soap was lye or alkaline salt that removed stains from clothing. A refiner’s fire was an oven of intense heat where precious metals were placed in order to purify them of their corrosion and dross. In the same way, purgatory is when a soul is immersed into the fire of God’s love and lifted out of the residue of its imperfections.

And here was you thoughtful analysis and “response” to those scriptures (Heb 12:1, Rev. 21:27, 1 Cor. 3:13–15, Malachi 3:2)

There is NO mention anywhere in scripture of a 3rd place men go when they die. There is either heaven or hell.

In the passage you quote, Paul is speaking of saved people and their works. It is the works that are either accepted or burned, not the people. Paul says nothing of a 3rd place a person is sent 'til they work off their sin.

Oh really? Then how do you deal with the rest of that verse: “If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

For those in Christ there is NO condemnation.

Correct! There is no condemnation; there is, however, purification.


Peace!

 

[annsni]

What - do you actually believe that heaven is one huge place with no divisions? Are you saying that God cannot do this if he wants?

The only place where sinful people will be allowed is at the throne of judgment. There's no "cleansing" before that after death. We either are counted righteous because we're clothed in Christ's righteousness or we're not. Period. End of story. Amen.

R E A D :null: P O S T :null: # 5 9.

Peace!

Post #59:

If sin still clings to Christians (Heb 12:1), but there is no sin in heaven (Rev. 21:27), there must be a purification that takes place after one’s death and before one enters heaven. Even if it were "in the blink of an eye," this final stage of sanctification must take place, so those who die in God’s favor may be cleansed if any affection for sin remains in them.

Paul mentions this in 1 Cor. 3:13–15: "Each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

Paul’s thought calls to mind the image of God as the refiner’s fire and fuller’s soap mentioned in Malachi 3:2. The fuller’s soap was lye or alkaline salt that removed stains from clothing. A refiner’s fire was an oven of intense heat where precious metals were placed in order to purify them of their corrosion and dross. In the same way, purgatory is when a soul is immersed into the fire of God’s love and lifted out of the residue of its imperfections.

What about it? I don't see where it's saying that we are purified in purgatory for our sins. We're either righteous or not. There's no purification after death. Now if you'd like to address the "rewards", that's a different story than salvation and righeousness.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

So basically BillySunday my analogy is correct? The light at the end of the tunnel is really a airtight purification chamber resembling a preasure chamber?

 

[lori4dogs]

So what you are basically saying is that heaven has a purification Chamber where we are tossed into, get burned, then scrubbed, and then washed off by Saints in air tight radiation anti sin suites carrying hoses until our skin is rubbed raw. Then we are led into an air chamber where we have to wait until the preasure matches that in heaven. Once thats accomplished the air tight seal is then open while we adjust to the new heaven air and are finally let in throught a 10 inch blast proof door? is that where you're going with it? Just curious.

This brings us back to the OP. What do we really know about heaven and hell??
Do you think that the image or idea that most people have of heaven and hell is in error? Spong states this and then concludes that because of this we need to get rid of heaven and hell.

According to scripture, Hell is a place where the fire is never extinguished and the worm won't die. We learn that it is a place of torment for Satan and any who follow him. We also know that it is a place for those not redeemed by the blood of Jesus. What do we know about heaven?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

This brings us back to the OP. What do we really know about heaven and hell??
Do you think that the image or idea that most people have of heaven and hell is in error? Spong states this and then concludes that because of this we need to get rid of heaven and hell.

According to scripture, Hell is a place where the fire is never extinguished and the worm won't die. We learn that it is a place of torment for Satan and any who follow him. We also know that it is a place for those not redeemed by the blood of Jesus. What do we know about heaven?

Heaven and hell are described in the bible. Images which people understand and can relate. Hell is described consistently at a "lake of fire" Jesus story about the rich man an Lazereth indicates that there is a "fire" aspect to hell since the guys ask for water just to sooth his tongue. Heaven has been described as a thone, a large city, a river, light comming directly from God, multitude of angles in flight and praise, saints praying and bowing, tears are wiped away, pain is no more, etc... I don't see anywhere where it talks about a purification chamber.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

What - do you actually believe that heaven is one huge place with no divisions? Are you saying that God cannot do this if he wants?

The only place where sinful people will be allowed is at the throne of judgment. There's no "cleansing" before that after death. We either are counted righteous because we're clothed in Christ's righteousness or we're not. Period. End of story. Amen.




Post #59:



What about it? I don't see where it's saying that we are purified in purgatory for our sins. We're either righteous or not. There's no purification after death. Now if you'd like to address the "rewards", that's a different story than salvation and righeousness.

If BillySunday were Catholic, he would differentiate between Mortal and Venial sin. Mortal sin is that which is purposeful disobedience to God and cause eternal death from which only repentance and Christ attonement can heal. Venial sin is that which causes an attachement to this world but is not out right disobedience to God. Like we hold to idea's that are in conformity to this world but not necissarily to Christ. Like we would rather have illegal hispanics thrown out of the country rather than feeding them and taking care of them despite the fact they are illegal. Its not a sin that will cost you eternity but its not conformity to Jesus Christ either. When you die mortal sin is no more but what sends you to pergatory is the venial sin or the brainwashing you die with. The fire of Purgatory is the re-expression of the covenant in which God is present as an all consuming fire. As God was when he walked through the 2 halfs of the calf in front of Abraham, as God was when we was the burning bush to moses, as God was as the pillar of fire before the fleeing hebrews, As God was a burning coal on Ezekiel's tongue, As God was flames of tongues in the upper room. Where the venialness of our lives are burned away in God's consuming fire and we are now completly in the image of Christ. That is how a Catholic who actually knows what they are talking about would see it. However, most catholics don't even know this much. And the only reason I know about is because My father keeps cramming this stuff down my throat giving me CD's to listen to by Hahn and Staples. Though he rarely listens to my stuff. He keeps quoting Hagee and Copeland and say I'm in agreement with them. I laugh at him he's being just as general about us as he claims we are with catholics. Which in my time with other catholics they are distrustful of evangelicals converting because they feel they are changing the church. Doctrine. Well if it gets them into the bible and understanding what encompases being born again. I'm for it. Its funny but I think putting both groups into a room to sort it out would be interesting.

 

[lori4dogs]

Heaven and hell are described in the bible. Images which people understand and can relate. Hell is described consistently at a "lake of fire" Jesus story about the rich man an Lazereth indicates that there is a "fire" aspect to hell since the guys ask for water just to sooth his tongue. Heaven has been described as a thone, a large city, a river, light comming directly from God, multitude of angles in flight and praise, saints praying and bowing, tears are wiped away, pain is no more, etc... I don't see anywhere where it talks about a purification chamber.

I think that Purgatory is a state a being, not a place. The Fathers of the Church taught there was a Purgatory: Tertullian , Origen , Cyprian, Ambrose, and a whole lot more.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I think that Purgatory is a state a being, not a place. The Fathers of the Church taught there was a Purgatory: Tertullian , Origen , Cyprian, Ambrose, and a whole lot more.

You should read my post 110.

 

[lori4dogs]

"Its funny but I think putting both groups into a room to sort it out would be interesting."

Have paramedics on hand!

 

[DHK]

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

The teaching:
To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Every believer knows this. It is a foundational truth of Christianity. There is no intermediate state.

Philippians 1:23-24 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

The teaching:
Paul had mixed feelings, but one thing he knew for sure--If he should depart from this earth he would be with Christ. There was no intermediate state. There was no place where he needed to be purified.

If I died right now I would stand before a holy God: I being perfectly holy, purified, justified, sanctified, and able to enter into the presence of an Almighty God. Why? Because God made me holy, and purified me in the clothing of his righteousness when he justified me on the day that I trusted him as my Savior many, many years ago. On that day he forgave all my sins: past, present, and future, and gave me the gift of eternal life--a gift which can never be taken away. My name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life and will never be blotted out according to the promises of God.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

The teaching:
To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Every believer knows this. It is a foundational truth of Christianity. There is no intermediate state.

Philippians 1:23-24 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

The teaching:
Paul had mixed feelings, but one thing he knew for sure--If he should depart from this earth he would be with Christ. There was no intermediate state. There was no place where he needed to be purified.

If I died right now I would stand before a holy God: I being perfectly holy, purified, justified, sanctified, and able to enter into the presence of an Almighty God. Why? Because God made me holy, and purified me in the clothing of his righteousness when he justified me on the day that I trusted him as my Savior many, many years ago. On that day he forgave all my sins: past, present, and future, and gave me the gift of eternal life--a gift which can never be taken away. My name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life and will never be blotted out according to the promises of God.

very nice.

 

[lori4dogs]

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

The teaching:
To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Every believer knows this. It is a foundational truth of Christianity. There is no intermediate state.

Philippians 1:23-24 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

The teaching:
Paul had mixed feelings, but one thing he knew for sure--If he should depart from this earth he would be with Christ. There was no intermediate state. There was no place where he needed to be purified.

If I died right now I would stand before a holy God: I being perfectly holy, purified, justified, sanctified, and able to enter into the presence of an Almighty God. Why? Because God made me holy, and purified me in the clothing of his righteousness when he justified me on the day that I trusted him as my Savior many, many years ago. On that day he forgave all my sins: past, present, and future, and gave me the gift of eternal life--a gift which can never be taken away. My name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life and will never be blotted out according to the promises of God.

“So we are always of good courage; we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. We are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord” (2 Cor 5:6-8).

Is this what you are saying excludes Purgatory?

 

[DHK]

“So we are always of good courage; we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. We are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord” (2 Cor 5:6-8).

Is this what you are saying excludes Purgatory?

The better translation is "confidence," as the KJV puts it. It also has the sense of boldness. I have complete confidence in the promises of the Word of God that what God has said is true.
Herein is faith described by Paul using Abraham as an example:

Romans 4:20-21 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

Abraham had faith. He was fully persuaded in the promises of God--that what God had promised, God would do. That is faith.
Paul had the same faith--that at the point of death he would be with the Lord. There was no doubt in his mind. There was no purgatory. He would be with the Lord. That is what the Scripture teaches. No room for doubt.

 

[lori4dogs]

"On the day if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” 1 Corinthians 3:15

I'll stick with the Bible, Early Church's Fathers, and what the Church has consistently taught for 2,000+ years.

 

[DHK]

"On the day if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” 1 Corinthians 3:15

I'll stick with the Bible, Early Church's Fathers, and what the Church has consistently taught for 2,000+ years.

Please exegete the entire passage (1Cor.3:11-15). Show me one verse, even just vs. 15, just one verse, where it indicates that any person will suffer in fire. Is there one? No, not one.

What does it say? "If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss." It does not say: "If any man will burn." Why would you think that? Do you know what the Bible says to those who would add to or take away from the Word of God? Now there it tells them that they would suffer in fire (or all the plagues that are written in this book) which includes fire.

Acts 28:3 And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
Acts 28:5 And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.

What happened?
Paul suffered loss of the viper, yet he himself was saved.
This is the exact same language as the judgment seat of Christ.
As the viper was burned up in the fire so a person's works will be burned in fire, and the person will suffer loss. I am sure that Paul was happy to suffer the loss of a venomous snake. But those at the Judgment Seat of Christ will not be so happy to suffer the loss of eternal reward.

There is no purgatory in this passage.
There is no mention is anyone suffering from or in fire of any kind.

The trouble, Lori, is that you don't stick with the Bible, and even the ECF lead you astray.
Origen was considered a heretic even by the Roman Catholic's
Irenaeus believed that Christ lived the ripe old age of 80.
Tertullian changed his view on baptism more times than a chameleon changes its color.

These were not consistent in their doctrine and much of it was heretical.
If you believe them you don't believe your Bible. They opposed each other.

BTW, there is no "The Church."
Paul established "churches" in his three missionary journeys. There is no denomination in the Bible. That is something else for you to study out.

 

[BobRyan]

"On the day if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” 1 Corinthians 3:15

I'll stick with the Bible, Early Church's Fathers, and what the Church has consistently taught for 2,000+ years.

In 1Cor 3 the gold and silver - vs -- the hay and stuble - refers to the teaching of the teachers -- using the metaphor of the builing-material of the builders.

In 1Cor 3 - the work is burned -- the person is not burned.

In 1Cor 3 - there is nothing said about "this only happens if you die" or "after you di".

In 1Cor 3 - the text is clear "NO Petra can any man lay other than that which is laid - Jesus Christ". Jesus is the ONE Petra of the church in 1Cor 3.

Thus this is a good example of a chapter that makes no mention at all of purgatory.

But - more specifically - there is nothing in 1Cor 3 that would allow "Someone ELSES bad material - hay and stuble, to be burned in place of yours" -- so still - no indulgences.

in Christ,

Bob