Wine As A Beverage

[annsni]

Ok, first you use "logic" to condemn giving children alcohol because they are too young and must wait like with driving a car and then....



So let's just stick with the giving of children mind and mood altering drugs for pleasure topic and leave silly things like driving a car at age ten out of this.

Now you say you don't see anything wrong with children drinking this drug. So is that to say that you would have no problem giving your own child some beer here and there?

I will not give my child beer because we choose to not drink so beer is not in the home other than the 4 pack of Guinness I buy in October to last us the whole winter in four meals of Irish Stew. We choose to not drink because we have had extensive ministry with the college kids at church and they struggle enough with the pressure to drink to excess that we feel we can show them that it is OK to not partake and still have fun. However, we have had alcohol in the past and to this day do not feel that we sinned or erred in any way.

Now, did you know that a child of 10 can drive a car on their own property and that many farmers do so? That is fine in my book. However, in my culture here on Long Island, we do not have large family farms so we do not allow 10 year olds to drive cars. It's the same thinking - alcohol or cars.

 

[annsni]

The scriptures are clear and the Holy Spirit confirms. It should not even take a commandment from God for a person to understand the evil of alcohol. Even the lost know this much.

How do you feel about smoking a little marijuana? It's about the same as alcohol so I would presume you have no problem with this drug being consumed for pleasure either. I guess even a needle with a bit of heroin in it wouldn't matter either. Everything in moderation you know. The scriptures don't say anything about smoking marijuana so I guess by using your standard it would be ok with God too.

You're advocating illegal drugs? Seriously?

 

[Zenas]

1. I am not sure it is against the law to give your child a cup of beer in your own house, But you can research that and bring it forth since you believe it is fact. Also, you will find that in some countries it is not against their laws at all for they have no law governing the private consumption of alcohol.

Section 244.085(3) of the Kentucky Revised Statutes provides:

A person under 21 years of age shall not possess for his or her own use or purchase or attempt to purchase or have another purchase for him or her any alcoholic beverages. No person shall aid or assist any person under 21 years of age in purchasing or having delivered or served to him or her any alcoholic beverages.

I believe most of the states have similar laws.

2. You'll have to give an example of the difference and as to why one reaction would be bad and the other good

.This is from a report by the American Medical Association.

The brain goes through dynamic change during adolescence, and alcohol can seriously damage long- and short-term growth processes. Frontal lobe development and the refinement of pathways and connections continue until age 16, and a high rate of energy is used as the brain matures until age 20. Damage from alcohol at this time can be long-term and irreversible. In addition, short-term or moderate drinking impairs learning and memory far more in youth than adults. Adolescents need only drink half as much to suffer the same negative effects.

There are scores of similar findings in other reports.

3. No judgment is necessary for the parent would be the one in charge of how much the child recieved. According to your postion a parent should have no problem sitting down and having a glass of beer with their child as long as the amount is in proportion with the wieght of the child.

It doesn't work that way. See the AMA report cited above. By your logic, a 40 pound child should be able to drink 20% as much as a 200 pound man. However, the effects on children are proportionately more severe.

The point is not how much but rather should the example of "do as I say and not as I do" be taught by Christians. If their is nothing wrong with taking mood drugs then by all means give the child a drink and stop being a Pharisee.

It's not "Do as I say, not as I do." It's telling children thay can't drink until they are 21. After that drink responsibly and if you can't drink responsibly, then refrain from drinking.

I am noticing that it sure is tough trying to defend drug consumption for pleasures sake. Why do Christians even try? I guess the love of beer is stronger than the love of righteousness.

So you are saying drinking is a sin. As someone said earlier here, I guess Jesus and the apostles would be denied admission to your church? Talk about being a Pharisee! Or maybe you're like the temperence lady who encountered a man drinking in a bar and upbraided him for this practice. The man replied, "Lady don't you know that Jesus Christ himself turned water into wine?" To which the lady retorted, "Yes, and I would have thought a lot more of him if he hadn't done that."

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Jaigner: In college, I knew more children of abstainers who abused alcohol than children of moderate drinkers.

HP: Your comment has stuck with me today. First, It has not been so in my family and my family is an extremely large one. (around 150 in my immediate family) A young drinker is the out of the ordinary in my family and my father was a strict prohibitionist. Possibly one coming from a Christian family is often more noticed and more made out of it than normal, but remember this. God is not finished with those individuals you speak about. Just as the prodigal son returned, so have a lot of the rest of us, and that due to our conservative Christian upbringing. I know one thing, I am not changing the mainstay of abstinence practiced in my family period. If one strays, I will plead the blood until they return, and I believe they will.

 

[jaigner]

HP: Your comment has stuck with me today. First, It has not been so in my family and my family is an extremely large one. (around 150 in my immediate family) A young drinker is the out of the ordinary in my family and my father was a strict prohibitionist. Possibly one coming from a Christian family is often more noticed and more made out of it than normal, but remember this. God is not finished with those individuals you speak about. Just as the prodigal son returned, so have a lot of the rest of us, and that due to our conservative Christian upbringing. I know one thing, I am not changing the mainstay of abstinence practiced in my family period. If one strays, I will plead the blood until they return, and I believe they will.

I'm certainly not suggesting it is the norm. I came from a family of abstainers and have never abused. Of course, the validity of my comment depends upon the exact implications of "abused," and I'm sure if one grew up in a family that abused alcohol, they are far more likely than anyone else to abuse it themselves.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

>How do you feel about smoking a little marijuana?

When I get to a place where it is legal I will give it a try. Or if it is handy and illegal will give it a try.

GE:
That's funny. Why would you? Just to show him?

Better never touch that stuff. There's NO comparison between using wine and filth.

It's impossible to imagine Jesus would puff marijuana; just the thought makes me sick.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I think you should read how silly your statement actually sounds.



Find the passage and put it forth.

GE:
I am willing to admit mistake.

Deuteronomy 12 does not say exactly 'get drunk'.
It says "Thou mayest not eat within thy gates the tithe of thy wine .... but thou MUST eat them (including the tithe of wine) in the place which the LORD shall choose." "And if the place which the LORD hath chosen be TOO FAR from thee thou shalt eat in thy gates WHATSOEVER THY SOUL LUSTETH AFTER." "Whatsoever", of course of meat and drink the LORD blessed the person with.

It says however, "thou shalt REJOICE before the LORD in ALL that thou puttest thine hands unto" --- while eating or drinking, cf. 16:14, 27:7, from 'sameach', 'to be merry', 'celebrate'

Of grape juice?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

GE: Of grape juice?

HP: I do it almost every day.:thumbs:

 

[steaver]

It's not "Do as I say, not as I do." It's telling children thay can't drink until they are 21. After that drink responsibly and if you can't drink responsibly, then refrain from drinking. "

Now what would be a good reason for a person to start drinking alcohol at age 21?

What is your reason for drinking alcohol? Please don't say "taste", everybody knows that is bogus. So why do you find a need for the drug?

So you are saying drinking is a sin. As someone said earlier here, I guess Jesus and the apostles would be denied admission to your church?

You would have to prove that Jesus was drinking fermented wine.

Or maybe you're like the temperence lady who encountered a man drinking in a bar and upbraided him for this practice. The man replied, "Lady don't you know that Jesus Christ himself turned water into wine?"

This the favorite answer for those who love their alcohol. They do not understand the difference between fermented and unfermented wine.

 

[steaver]

You're advocating illegal drugs? Seriously?

Careful not to view the issue from a USA point of view. Marijuana is very legal in many countries. (And will be in the USA one day soon)

So tell me why smoking a little bit is any different than drinking a little bit of alcohol?

You alcohol lovers like to throw around the "law" until it works against your argument. Here in Pa the law states that one is drunk at .08 blood alcohol content. This would mean that about two beers and an average man is considered drunk by law. About one drink for an average woman. This then means that you folks having two or three beers are drunk. Now how do you find a loop hole for your drunkenness?

 

[jaigner]

What is your reason for drinking alcohol? Please don't say "taste", everybody knows that is bogus. So why do you find a need for the drug?
.

I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about here. Tons of people like the taste of liquor.

 

[steaver]

GE:

Better never touch that stuff. There's NO comparison between using wine and filth.

It's impossible to imagine Jesus would puff marijuana; just the thought makes me sick.

There is no difference between the two drugs. Both are for pleasure to alter the mood. Both have the same effect on the brain.

Why should you look down on another person's choice of preferred drug when you yourself take a drug for your own pleasures?

Why do you take alcohol? For the taste? Or the effect? I know by experience that unfermented wine taste 100 times better than fermented.

 

[steaver]

I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about here. Tons of people like the taste of liquor.

What is your need for the drug?

 

[jaigner]

What is your need for the drug?

I don't need it. I haven't had anything to drink in weeks. I enjoy it on occasion.

 

[Zenas]

Now what would be a good reason for a person to start drinking alcohol at age 21?

Because he is not allowed to start at age 20. :laugh: Seriously, it's like any other rite of passage (going to college, getting married, going in debt to buy your first house, etc.)

What is your reason for drinking alcohol? Please don't say "taste", everybody knows that is bogus. So why do you find a need for the drug?

Well, I do like the taste but it's more than that. It's pleasurable, just like drinking coffe, eating ice cream, watching a movie, having s*x, etc. The proper attitude toward drinking is nicely summed up in Sirach 31:35-42:

35 Wine was created from the beginning to make men joyful, and not to make them drunk.
36 Wine drunken with moderation is the joy of the soul and the heart.
37 Sober drinking is health to soul and body.
38 Wine drunken with excess raiseth quarrels; and wrath, and many ruins.
39 Wine drunken with excess is bitterness of the soul.
40 The heat of drunkenness is the stumblingblock of the fool, lessening strength and causing wounds.
41 Rebuke not thy neighbour in a banquet of wine: and despise him not in his mirth.
42 Speak not to him words of reproach: and press him not in demanding again.

You would have to prove that Jesus was drinking fermented wine.

Actually the burden is on you to show that He wasn't because John 2:10, Luke 7:34, Matthew 9:17 and other passages show they were talking about an alcoholic beverage.

This the favorite answer for those who love their alcohol. They do not understand the difference between fermented and unfermented wine.

All right, show us the difference and while you're at it, explain why the verses I cited don't refer to alcoholic beverages.

 

[DHK]

The proper attitude toward drinking is nicely summed up in Sirach 31:35-42:

And that is why it is in the Apocrypha!

 

[annsni]

What is your reason for drinking alcohol? Please don't say "taste", everybody knows that is bogus.

Why is that bogus? I love the taste of many alcoholic drinks. A good margherita with Mexican food rocks. Of course it has to be on the rocks - I hate the frozen ones. A glass of wine with a good dinner is amazing and the closest I get to it now is to cook with it. You can't beat the taste of wine in cooking whether it be red or white and it's false that the alcohol all cooks off in a few minutes of cooking. Of course beer and pizza is the perfect pair but now I do with a coke. There are many other drinks that I used to drink because of the taste. So I don't understand the "everybody knows that's bogus". I STILL drink a seabreeze which is grapefruit juice and cranberry juice with vodka but I just don't add the vodka (which adds a little bit of a different flavor but not too much). Even my 9 year old son makes this for himself and I'm sure it's not because it used to have alcohol in it. :laugh:

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

What is your reason for drinking alcohol? Please don't say "taste", everybody knows that is bogus. So why do you find a need for the drug?

Are you serious? Everybody knows that the taste of wine is bogus? When you make statements like that, you lose whatever credibility you had.

Of course, people drink wine for the taste. Why else would they spend $10-$50 or more per bottle? (OK, the health benefits to your body of drinking red wine is another plus.) If people want to drink simply to get drunk, believe me, they are far cheaper and easier ways to do this instead than drinking wine. And if there's no difference in the taste, why is there such a hugh range in pricing -- perhaps more than any other beverage?? You can get really cheap stuff for $5 and for more than $100, you get really excellent wine.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

Of course beer and pizza is the perfect pair ... :laugh:

AMEN! I agree.

 

[billwald]

I drink alcohol for two reasons.

1. attitude adjustment

2. It reduces the need for pain pills.