Wine As A Beverage

[adisciplinedlearner]

That's my question, too.

 

[Mexdeaf]

As I posted earlier- it's all about control. If you can control it- it's not sin. If it controls you instead, then it is.

Anger is not a sin unless you let it control you. TV watching is not a sin... etc.

It's simply a matter of control.

I don't use alcohol except in medicine and to cook with (and no- I'm not referring to having a bottle of Jack Daniels while I BBQ- :laugh.

It is a matter of personal choice with me. Being a pastor comes with certain expectations in my book and being in control of my emotions and actions is one of those expectations (not that I always succeed, mind you). Plus, I work with addicts as part of my ministry so I need to set a good example in that area.

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

May God bless you in your work!

 

[steaver]

I have had lots of wine. It DOES add good flavor or else we wouldn't cook with it. .

First, forget about the cooking part because no one can get "merry" eating food cooked with a little alcoholic wine. We are talking about drinking it.

You are not grasping the FACT that if you REMOVE the ALCOHOL and cook with the wine HAVING NO ALCOHOL you will get the SAME "good flavor" and probably even BETTER without the pungent alcohol part.

Ann, you can buy NON-ALCOHOLIC wine and get the good flavor. I have explained this at least three times to you and you keep missing the "ALCOHOL" part.

Why do you say I will never understand this debate unless I've been drunk? God never got drunk but He wrote about it....

Because you believe that the alcohol part is what makes the wine "yummy". It's not, it's what makes the wine "toxic".

Here are your own words...

Ann;
Alcohol is a gift from God. We are not to get drunk but are to enjoy His blessing.

then you said....

Ann;
And when I drank, I never felt the affects of the alcohol. Apparently you were a drunk. I was not. One glass of wine over the course of a meal wouldn't make me feel anything other than feeling "yum - that was good".

1) You have no idea what alcohol alone taste like. You have only drank "good juice" which masked the alcohol that was present in it. The "yummy" you taste is the juices. Go and drink a shot of just alcohol and then come tell me how "yummy" it was.

2) You have never partaken in the "merry" that comes from the effects of the alcohol. You admitted you have never had enough wine to ever feel anything but the "Yum" from the flavor from the juices.

Now if you truly believe that alcohol is God's gift to you then why aren't you drinking it to experience it's effects, getting "merry"? A glass of wine with a meal will do nothing for "merry". In combination with the food the alcohol gets too diluted to cause a "merry".

Have you ever been "merry" on wine Ann? If not, then you have no idea what this debate is all about. It appears that you believe that "merry" means "yummy".

 

[steaver]

I can see how an alcoholic could think the taste is bad, but those of us who aren't might still like it.

Don't you guys understand the difference between the taste of alcohol and the taste of the beverages used to mask it's pungent flavor?

Alcoholics would say that they LOVE the taste of alcohol, this is why they are alcoholics!! Yet it is not the taste of the alcohol persay that they crave but it is the effects of it.

Not one alcoholic would love the taste of pure alcohol nor any of you for that matter. So this "oh it is so yummy" talk is nonsense. It is the high you crave, the drug, the merry, the drunk.

Accept of course in the case of Ann. She believes the alcohol itself is the yummy part and has never experienced what she calls "A gift from God".

 

[steaver]

How should we recognize drunkenness? Is it when a person has slurred speech and cannot walk a straight line?

Ann has it right. She has never felt any effect from alcohol. She has never been guilty of drunkenness even though she has had beverages with alcohol in them.

This can only be recognized by the person doing the drinking. As soon as one feels the drug effecting their mind or mood they are now drunk by definition.

 

[Revmitchell]

Rom 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.


Pro 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.


Sometimes scripture indicates support of wine other times it condemns it. It is incorrect to assume that every time wine is mentioned in scripture it is equal to the wine of today.

And it is heretical to suggest that Jesus fed alcoholic beverage to those who would already be drunk.

 

[steaver]

Being a pastor comes with certain expectations in my book and being in control of my emotions and actions is one of those expectations (not that I always succeed, mind you). Plus, I work with addicts as part of my ministry so I need to set a good example in that area.

Actually, being a Christian comes with certain expectations according to the scriptures. Christians are called to be holy and blameless. When Paul gave instructions for appointing elders he told them to look for those who were walking the talk - blameless.

Many Christians misunderstand the "qualifications" for bishop or elder. They carry the attitude that a pastor is expected to be more holy than they themsleves, many times excusing their own behavior. The pastor is not to be above the common Christian in any form of holiness. The qualifications are given for all Christians and all Christains are to live holy and blameless. Of course if a Christian is living anything less than blameless then they are not to be appointed as a leader. This does not mean they are dismissed from God's call to blamelessness. It just means they are not ready or qualified to be the leader.

The choice to abstain from alcohol totally is a wise choice, for most cannot even drink one drink without falling into the state of being drunk, which is the sin.

Face it, everyone knows why a person consumes alcohol. It has nothing to do with taste, therein lies the problem and the sin. God judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Ask yourself (not you pastor, speaking to the board here), Just why do you want that drink? Is it to get that feeling? That feeling is "drunk". Look it up.

 

[Mexdeaf]

The choice to abstain from alcohol totally is a wise choice, for most cannot even drink one drink without falling into the state of being drunk, which is the sin.

Face it, everyone knows why a person consumes alcohol. It has nothing to do with taste, therein lies the problem and the sin. God judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Ask yourself (not you pastor, speaking to the board here), Just why do you want that drink? Is it to get that feeling? That feeling is "drunk". Look it up.

Just so you know- I do not agree with your conclusions here. I would allow Ann the liberty to have her glass of wine. You make a statement that, "most cannot even drink one drink without falling into the state of being drunk", but do you have proof for that statement?

Using your reasoning, if one glass of wine is wrong, then by the same estimation a bag of potato chips must be equally wrong.

An addict is a person who allows the substance, thought, item, or habit to CONTROL their lives. I do not know Ann personally, but she has never lied to me on this forum and I can take her word for it that she does not lose control after a glass of wine. If she did, I am sure that her husband would step in.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Who here knows precisely when one is going to be called upon to make a decision with physical or eternal consequences, for themselves or others. “ Watchman, what of the night? “ Lives are often altered forever by a decision made in a moment that minutes before they had no idea as to what was about to happen. Just what state of mind do you desire to be in? How can one best prepare themselves for such a time as that?

For myself, I will avoid the use of alcohol and mind altering drugs. Eternity will tell the misery we have cost ourselves or the misery we have avoided by that one such simple decision.

 

[steaver]

You make a statement that, "most cannot even drink one drink without falling into the state of being drunk", but do you have proof for that statement?

.

Yes, you need to read the whole thread thus far. It has been proven buy science.

Using your reasoning, if one glass of wine is wrong, then by the same estimation a bag of potato chips must be equally wrong.

Chips cannot make you drunk. The topic here is alcohol and how God warns against it's effects. God says don't even look upon it. I take that as wrong to drink it at all.

An addict is a person who allows the substance, thought, item, or habit to CONTROL their lives.

Allows? If one is addicted to a drug it means they cannot resist the drug. Now how did they get to this place? By flirting with a drug that they knew could cause addiction.

I do not know Ann personally, but she has never lied to me on this forum and I can take her word for it that she does not lose control after a glass of wine. If she did, I am sure that her husband would step in.

She has testified that she has not. I take her at her word.

 

[rbell]

The choice to abstain from alcohol totally is a wise choice

I've not agreed with many of your posts.

IMO, they've been too harsh, lacked grace, and at times been factually incorrect.

But...let's give credit for credit is due. I agree with your above statement.

(my reasons for supporting it were stated earlier in the thread, and on other selected BB locales)

 

[steaver]

I've not agreed with many of your posts.

IMO, they've been too harsh, lacked grace, and at times been factually incorrect.

But...let's give credit for credit is due. I agree with your above statement.

(my reasons for supporting it were stated earlier in the thread, and on other selected BB locales)

Thanks!

I think......

If you like, pm me on the sins and I will take a look at them. I promise you I will make corrections and appologies where necessary.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Yes, you need to read the whole thread thus far. It has been proven buy science.

I don't have the time or inclination to wade through the whole thread, so I'll take your word for it. But "science" also has "proven" evolution and "global warming".

Chips cannot make you drunk. The topic here is alcohol and how God warns against it's effects. God says don't even look upon it. I take that as wrong to drink it at all.

Allows? If one is addicted to a drug it means they cannot resist the drug. Now how did they get to this place? By flirting with a drug that they knew could cause addiction.

No but chips can make you fat, increase your cholesterol, cause diabetes and contribute to a whole heap of other health issues. We have a family in our church that has a terrible food addiction- the whole family is grossly overweight and has lost limbs due to diabetes. I submit to you that if they had not eaten the first potato chip then they might not be food addicts today.

Ann is not an addict. Some people can have a glass of two of wine, and IMHO it is not sin for them to do so.

We're not going to agree. I think it is up to the individual believer. I do not promote it nor use it, but I also do not condemn someone doing the same thing our Lord did at His last meal before the cross. He didn't have grape juice.

 

[Revmitchell]

I don't have the time or inclination to wade through the whole thread, so I'll take your word for it. But "science" also has "proven" evolution and "global warming".



No but chips can make you fat, increase your cholesterol, cause diabetes and contribute to a whole heap of other health issues. We have a family in our church that has a terrible food addiction- the whole family is grossly overweight and has lost limbs due to diabetes. I submit to you that if they had not eaten the first potato chip then they might not be food addicts today.

Ann is not an addict. Some people can have a glass of two of wine, and IMHO it is not sin for them to do so.

We're not going to agree. I think it is up to the individual believer. I do not promote it nor use it, but I also do not condemn someone doing the same thing our Lord did at His last meal before the cross. He didn't have grape juice.

That is exactly what He had

 

[Mexdeaf]

That is exactly what He had

OK- so I disagree. I think you will be surprised when he offers you a cup at the Fellowship Table in His presence. Maybe both of us will be!!:laugh:

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

Although I do not drink alcohol myself, I believe God has given it to man for a positive purpose. If it is abused, however, it becomes a dangerous and even deadly substance.

 

[annsni]

First, forget about the cooking part because no one can get "merry" eating food cooked with a little alcoholic wine. We are talking about drinking it.

You are not grasping the FACT that if you REMOVE the ALCOHOL and cook with the wine HAVING NO ALCOHOL you will get the SAME "good flavor" and probably even BETTER without the pungent alcohol part.

Ann, you can buy NON-ALCOHOLIC wine and get the good flavor. I have explained this at least three times to you and you keep missing the "ALCOHOL" part.

You apparently have never cooked with wine nor had non-alcoholic wine before. Or you never knew what good wine tasted like. Non-alcoholic wine is as good a substitute as Diet Coke is for Coke. In other words it isn't. It's a different substance.

Because you believe that the alcohol part is what makes the wine "yummy". It's not, it's what makes the wine "toxic".

Wow - toxic? Nope. Wine is not toxic.

Here are your own words...
then you said....

1) You have no idea what alcohol alone taste like. You have only drank "good juice" which masked the alcohol that was present in it. The "yummy" you taste is the juices. Go and drink a shot of just alcohol and then come tell me how "yummy" it was.

I used to drink straight single malt scotch. It was yummy. There. Make you feel better?

2) You have never partaken in the "merry" that comes from the effects of the alcohol. You admitted you have never had enough wine to ever feel anything but the "Yum" from the flavor from the juices.

And how did that not make me merry? Is merry a code word for drunk? I didn't know that. So God is saying that He gave us wine to make our hearts drunk? Hmmmm.....

Now if you truly believe that alcohol is God's gift to you then why aren't you drinking it to experience it's effects, getting "merry"? A glass of wine with a meal will do nothing for "merry". In combination with the food the alcohol gets too diluted to cause a "merry".

I do experience "merry" when I drink it just as I experience "merry" when I have a great ice cream sundae. Merry is a state of the heart and mind, not a physical buzz.

Have you ever been "merry" on wine Ann? If not, then you have no idea what this debate is all about. It appears that you believe that "merry" means "yummy".

Yes, I have been merry while drinking wine. I enjoy it. That to me is merry. Apparently you have a different definition.

 

[annsni]

Ann has it right. She has never felt any effect from alcohol. She has never been guilty of drunkenness even though she has had beverages with alcohol in them.

This can only be recognized by the person doing the drinking. As soon as one feels the drug effecting their mind or mood they are now drunk by definition.

Is that the Biblical definition? Can you show me the verse?

 

[annsni]

Face it, everyone knows why a person consumes alcohol. It has nothing to do with taste, therein lies the problem and the sin.

That is a lie and I have already proven that.