Wine As A Beverage

[annsni]

Just so you know- I do not agree with your conclusions here. I would allow Ann the liberty to have her glass of wine. You make a statement that, "most cannot even drink one drink without falling into the state of being drunk", but do you have proof for that statement?

Using your reasoning, if one glass of wine is wrong, then by the same estimation a bag of potato chips must be equally wrong.

An addict is a person who allows the substance, thought, item, or habit to CONTROL their lives. I do not know Ann personally, but she has never lied to me on this forum and I can take her word for it that she does not lose control after a glass of wine. If she did, I am sure that her husband would step in.

Thank yo Mexdeaf. And to make it clear, I do not drink any longer because of our ministry to college students and troubled teens.

 

[annsni]

Yes, you need to read the whole thread thus far. It has been proven buy science.

Actually, science disproves you.

Chips cannot make you drunk. The topic here is alcohol and how God warns against it's effects. God says don't even look upon it. I take that as wrong to drink it at all.

We are not to be drunk = don't even take one drink.
We are not to be gluttons = don't even take one bite.

Seems pretty equal to me!

Allows? If one is addicted to a drug it means they cannot resist the drug. Now how did they get to this place? By flirting with a drug that they knew could cause addiction.

They got to that place by ALLOWING.....

She has testified that she has not. I take her at her word.

Thank you. Now what do you do when someone is getting "drunk" from a blood sugar low...... (need to get something to eat! BRB!!)

 

[steaver]

No but chips can make you fat, increase your cholesterol, cause diabetes and contribute to a whole heap of other health issues. We have a family in our church that has a terrible food addiction- the whole family is grossly overweight and has lost limbs due to diabetes. I submit to you that if they had not eaten the first potato chip then they might not be food addicts today.
.

I don't believe it is a just comparision. People must eat food to survive, they don't need alcohol to survive.

 

[steaver]

.
You apparently have never cooked with wine nor had non-alcoholic wine before. Or you never knew what good wine tasted like. Non-alcoholic wine is as good a substitute as Diet Coke is for Coke. In other words it isn't. It's a different substance.

Maybe you haven't found a good tasting non-alcoholic wine, don't know how hard you tried, but you are still missing the fact that the alcohol does not make it taste better. Remove the alcohol from your favorite wine and it will taste even better than with the alcohol.

Diet Coke has the "sugar" removed. Sugar is a "good" tasting ingredient. Alcohol is not a "good" tasting ingredient. The comparision is bunk.

Wow - toxic? Nope. Wine is not toxic.

Then why are we having a debate about getting drunk on wine? Alcohol causes "intoxication".

I used to drink straight single malt scotch. It was yummy. There. Make you feel better?

No, it is not pure alcohol. About 20% alcohol content.

I do experience "merry" when I drink it just as I experience "merry" when I have a great ice cream sundae. Merry is a state of the heart and mind, not a physical buzz.

You see Ann, you have no understanding of the scriptures use of the word "merry". You made up your own definition.

Yes, I have been merry while drinking wine. I enjoy it. That to me is merry. Apparently you have a different definition.

Ann, you have shown that you do not understand what the bible means by "merry". Ask a few people you know and trust what it means.

 

[steaver]

Ann,

Here is a passage to help you understand what the scriptures mean by "merry" when it speaks of wine.

1Sa 25:36And Abigail came to Nabal; and, behold, he held a feast in his house, like the feast of a king; and Nabal's heart [was] merry within him, for he [was] very drunken: wherefore she told him nothing, less or more, until the morning light.

 

[Mexdeaf]

I don't believe it is a just comparision. People must eat food to survive, they don't need alcohol to survive.

We need water to survive. Did you know that one can become intoxicated by drinking too much water? Science has proven it-

http://chemistry.about.com/cs/5/f/blwaterintox.htm

Let's keep the BIBLICAL standard- it is an issue of control- Ephesians 5:18. Too many times our standards are driven by tradition or emotions rather than from the Bible and this is one of those issues, IMO.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Ann,

Here is a passage to help you understand what the scriptures mean by "merry" when it speaks of wine.

1Sa 25:36And Abigail came to Nabal; and, behold, he held a feast in his house, like the feast of a king; and Nabal's heart [was] merry within him, for he [was] very drunken: wherefore she told him nothing, less or more, until the morning light.

How about comparing that with Psalm 104:15?

 

[steaver]

And to make it clear, I do not drink any longer because of our ministry to college students and troubled teens.

Not sure why you would abstain from alcohol if you believe it is a gift from God.

How would you be a stumbling block if you explain to them that alcohol is God's gift for responsible grown ups? It could be an opportunity for you could show them how it is to be consumed correctly and set a good example for them to follow. Of course you will have to tell them that they must first hit that majical number of twenty one.

Shouldn't they know the truth? And shouldn't we all practice what we preach?

 

[steaver]

How about comparing that with Psalm 104:15?

Psa 104:14 He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;

Psa 104:15 And wine [that] maketh glad the heart of man, [and] oil to make [his] face to shine, and bread [which] strengtheneth man's heart.


It appears to be a "good" thing here doesn't it?

Glad, merry and drunk all appear to be synonymous terms used in conjunction with wine throughout the scriptures.

What make you of this?

 

[steaver]

We need water to survive. Did you know that one can become intoxicated by drinking too much water? Science has proven it-

http://chemistry.about.com/cs/5/f/blwaterintox.htm

.

Can we see the extent one will go to defend drunkenness?

Let's keep the BIBLICAL standard- it is an issue of control- Ephesians 5:18. Too many times our standards are driven by tradition or emotions rather than from the Bible and this is one of those issues, IMO

Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;


Exactly what I have been preaching. Can you show the biblical difference between "merry with wine" and "glad with wine" and "drunk with wine" ?

 

[Zenas]

Not sure why you would abstain from alcohol if you believe it is a gift from God.

How would you be a stumbling block if you explain to them that alcohol is God's gift for responsible grown ups? It could be an opportunity for you could show them how it is to be consumed correctly and set a good example for them to follow. Of course you will have to tell them that they must first hit that majical number of twenty one.

Shouldn't they know the truth? And shouldn't we all practice what we preach?

I agree with your logic steaver, and I believe we should set an example to children and youth by exercising maturity and drinking responsibly. By doing so we will see a lot fewer binge drinkers and alcoholics as these youth come of age.

 

[billwald]

Lima beans are also a gift from God but . . . .<G>

Compare alcohol and sexual intercourse regarding the instruction to children. Are they not both gifts from God?

Ice cream is a gift from God but some adults can't digest lactose.

 

[Zenas]

Psa 104:14 He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;

Psa 104:15 And wine [that] maketh glad the heart of man, [and] oil to make [his] face to shine, and bread [which] strengtheneth man's heart.


It appears to be a "good" thing here doesn't it?

Glad, merry and drunk all appear to be synonymous terms used in conjunction with wine throughout the scriptures.

What make you of this?

Good question. What Hebrew (or Greek) words translate to "glad", "merry" and "drunk"? Are they the same word, different words with the same meaning, or different words with different meanings? Is there bias in the translating? I don't know the answers to these questions. Maybe some of you language gurus can jump in and help us here.

 

[steaver]

I agree with your logic steaver, and I believe we should set an example to children and youth by exercising maturity and drinking responsibly. By doing so we will see a lot fewer binge drinkers and alcoholics as these youth come of age.

Have you ever known of a young adult (18-early twenties) who drank often times and never once got merry while consuming alcohol?

I personally have known hundreds of alcohol drinkers in my time and have NEVER found one who did not get merry most of the time.

"Responsible drinking" is a lie from the pit of hell. It does not exist. It is a fairy tale of wishful idealism.

You are presenting something that just ain't never going to happen.

Ann is the only exception that I have ever encountered although I do not know her personally and have never been around her while she was drinking scotch and other mixed drinks. Now she testifies that she has drank many of these drinks and has never felt the effects of the alcohol. If she can drink down a glass of scotch having 20% alcohol content in it and not feel any effect from the alcohol then she is not the norm found in society. But I take her at her word, she is a huge exception though.

One beer with 4% alcohol in it and I can feel it working and I weigh 200 pounds.

 

[jaigner]

Have you ever known of a young adult (18-early twenties) who drank often times and never once got merry while consuming alcohol?

I personally have known hundreds of alcohol drinkers in my time and have NEVER found one who did not get merry most of the time.

"Responsible drinking" is a lie from the pit of hell. It does not exist. It is a fairy tale of wishful idealism.

You are presenting something that just ain't never going to happen.

Ann is the only exception that I have ever encountered although I do not know her personally and have never been around her while she was drinking scotch and other mixed drinks. Now she testifies that she has drank many of these drinks and has never felt the effects of the alcohol. If she can drink down a glass of scotch having 20% alcohol content in it and not feel any effect from the alcohol then she is not the norm found in society. But I take her at her word, she is a huge exception though.

One beer with 4% alcohol in it and I can feel it working and I weigh 200 pounds.

Still, this argument is further descending into "this is my experience, so I demand this out of everyone." It doesn't work that way.

And when do we stop? If we shouldn't drink occasionally to relax or because we enjoy it, should we not take medicine that alters our mood, mental status, etc? Is caffeine out, because it is a highly addictive, mind-altering drug. What about anti-depressants for people with serious depressive and mood disorders? Where does it stop?

Of course, the answer to those questions above are issues of conscience. Some of the same Christians who are worried sick about alcohol use were the ones concerned that medicinal products weren't appropriate for use, either. There are people who take this to that extreme.

It is obvious that Christianity is a relationship in which the Spirit's work is done in your life. Behavioral modifications are necessary, but they are done in response to the conviction and leading of the Spirit. Since alcohol is not contrary to the letter and spirit of the Bible, this is an area where each has to earnestly seek the Spirit's guidance, not follow the legalistic, prescriptive and moralistic rationalizations of other people.

For me, this isn't a moral rationalization. I'm not swayed by hypothetical questions about my children, of which I don't currently have any, my witness, which has not been damaged by an occasional drink, or the struggles of other people. Giving me old recycled stories from pulpits of prohibition supporters is not going to sway me. I pray, listen to the voice of the Spirit, asking for guidance, and follow its leading. That is what I do for myself, and it's all I can ask of other people.

Blessings.

 

[steaver]

Since alcohol is not contrary to the letter and spirit of the Bible, .

The bible actually has quite a bit to say about alcohol, all of it very negative.

 

[steaver]

Still, this argument is further descending into "this is my experience, so I demand this out of everyone." It doesn't work that way.




Blessings.

Never said it did, never demanded aything. This is a "debate forum".

For me, this isn't a moral rationalization. I'm not swayed by hypothetical questions about my children, of which I don't currently have any, my witness, which has not been damaged by an occasional drink, or the struggles of other people. Giving me old recycled stories from pulpits of prohibition supporters is not going to sway me. I pray, listen to the voice of the Spirit, asking for guidance, and follow its leading. That is what I do for myself, and it's all I can ask of other people.

Do you teach jaigner?

Do you ever tell anecdotes related to the scripture lesson?

Do you ever share life experiences of how you have applied the scriptures to your life?

Have you ever quoted another Christian Commentary and shared their opinion?

Have you ever sat in a SS class and shared life experiences abck and forth?

Scripture application to real life realities is what learning is all about. If a pov makes no sense because it is not seen in everyday life as a possibility, then in reality most likely it is an error.

So what is the reality of alcohol in this world? Do you find it is a mostly used for good drug or a mostly used for evil drug?

Yes, technically a person can sip a half a beer and not get drunk. There you go, you are vindicated for being in favor of it. But what is the reality brother?

Why do you want the drink? Is it that you want the drug?

 

[Mexdeaf]

The bible actually has quite a bit to say about alcohol, all of it very negative.

Not all of it, as I pointed out earlier.

 

[Revmitchell]

Not all of it, as I pointed out earlier.

No not all of it. In fact it is sometimes encouraged which brings into question the validity that all wine was alcoholic.

 

[steaver]

No not all of it. In fact it is sometimes encouraged which brings into question the validity that all wine was alcoholic.

If sometimes wine is spoken of in a favorable light and sometimes it is spoken of in a unfavorable light, then could it be that there was wine that was of very little alcohol content and wine that was of high alcohol content?

Would there be no other way of distinguishing the difference by word other than to say wine that is good for you and wine that is bad for you?

Pro 20:1Wine [is] a mocker, strong drink [is] raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.


Does this sound good (God's gift to man) kind of wine?


Pro 23:31Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, [when] it moveth itself aright.

Here a discription of bad wine is given. This wine must be wine that is of high alcohol content. Notice God's word personalizes the wine and calls it "his" colour. Could God be refering to satan?