Is knowing Jesus as the Son of God a requirement to have eternal life or not?

[annsni]

Here's one.



KyRedneck responded:

I would disagree with his choice of words "born again" to refer to the children in the two cases. I'd say "set apart" instead.

But regeneration absolutely preceeds faith because a dead man cannot have faith. Scripture shows that clearly. But I'd say that regeneration begins a "quickening" and that salvation comes after our faith, if that makes sense.

 

[Winman]

Spurgeon believed regeneration preceded faith too. This quote is taken out of context. We had a conversation about this very quote about three weeks ago and some dear brother proved that it was taken out of context and that Spurgeon did indeed believe that regeneration preceded faith.

You are not going to get it because you don't understand that terms have meanings.

You are twisting Spurgeon's words. He clearly defines regeneration as being saved. He says it several times in that statement.

And this goes straight to the OP, if God regenerates a person, then according to how Spurgeon and most of us define that word, that person is saved. They have salvation, they have everlasting life.

So, why would they have to believe on Jesus? They already have everlasting life.

And this is exactly what Spurgeon is pointing out in that statement.

You really don't see the seriousness of this error. You are teaching a person can have everlasting life before they believe on Jesus.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

It takes time to have faith. It takes time to hear the gospel and understand it before you can believe it. If you teach that a person is regenerated for even one minute before they understand the gospel and believe on Jesus, you are teaching that a person has everlasting life for one minute without Jesus. This is as serious error as you can possibly get.

But some Calvinists go far beyond this, they say a person can be regenerated for years before trusting Christ. Unbelieveable.

 

[Luke2427]

You are twisting Spurgeon's words. He clearly defines regeneration as being saved. He says it several times in that statement.

And this goes straight to the OP, if God regenerates a person, then according to how Spurgeon and most of us define that word, that person is saved. They have salvation, they have everlasting life.

So, why would they have to believe on Jesus? They already have everlasting life.

And this is exactly what Spurgeon is pointing out in that statement.

You really don't see the seriousness of this error. You are teaching a person can have everlasting life before they believe on Jesus.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

It takes time to have faith. It takes time to hear the gospel and understand it before you can believe it. If you teach that a person is regenerated for even one minute before they understand the gospel and believe on Jesus, you are teaching that a person has everlasting life for one minute without Jesus. This is as serious error as you can possibly get.

But some Calvinists go far beyond this, they say a person can be regenerated for years before trusting Christ. Unbelieveable.

I addressed all of that in post 120. Read that and respond, please.

 

[Luke2427]

So, why would they have to believe on Jesus? They already have everlasting life.

Since you won;t listen to me or reason read what two scholars have to say about this particular passage to answer your question.

1 John 5:1

In my article I quote from both Spurgeon and Piper regarding 1 John 5:1. The Spurgeon quote is in the previous post. Here is what Piper wrote:
Piper wrote:

That’s plain in 1 John 5:1: “Everyone who believes [that is, has faith] that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God.” Having been born of God results in our believing. Our believing is the immediate evidence of God’s begetting.

This morning I viewed a video by James White, which he posted yesterday, on the same passage. The video is slightly under 19 minutes and here is what he said.
White wrote:

(5:18) Now, when you have a perfect tense verb with a present tense participle, what's the relationship at the time, and the vast majority of instances, that action accomplished in the perfect tense verb is going to precede, it's antecedent to, the action of the participle. What that would mean here, is that being born of God preceded this saving faith and in fact, I would argue, gives rise to it. One might be able to argue in some cases for a contemporaneous action, but that wouldn't make much sense here and as we will see, doesn't make any sense in John's repeated usage of this particular grammatical form, and that’s what’s very important.

 

[Winman]

There never was a grain of such faith as this in the world, except in a regenerate soul,

Well, this statement is true, but it does not address which comes first, faith or regeneration.

“Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God.”

This is a similar statement, it does not address which comes first, faith or regeneration.

To believe in Jesus is a better indicator of regeneration than anything else, and in no case did it ever mislead. Faith in the living God and his Son Jesus Christ is always the result of the new birth, and can never exist except in the regenerate.

I would disagree with Spurgeon here. Faith is not the result of the new birth, faith brings the new birth.

Look, I have presented you many verses spoken by Jesus himself that shows believeing determines whether you live or die.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

This verse is simple. He that believes has life, he that believes not shall not see life. Believeing determines whether you will live or die.

But you believe the exact opposite. You believe life determines whether you will believe or not.

Again, for about the tenth time, John 20:31 shows that believeing precedes having life.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This verse is plain as day. You must believe to have life.

Voorhis said that regeneration logically precedes faith. He could not be more wrong, that is absolutely illogical. You cannot have your sins forgiven until you believe on Jesus. As long as you are a sinner, you are condemned, you have the wrath of God resting on you. So, how in the world can you be spiritually alive until your sins are removed and taken away?

I mean, if you can't get this I don't know what to say to you.

Jesus said he that believeth not is condemned already. So how can you possibly have life until after you believe? You can't be condemned and have life at the same moment. Why can't you understand this?

Your problem is that your mind has been programmed to believe exactly the opposite of what the scriptures repeatedly show. Believe the scriptures, not what men say.

 

[Winman]

I can't believe I have forgotten this verse. Without question it shows that faith precedes regeneration (being saved, having everlasting life).

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

This verse is plain as day, he that believes "shall be" saved, and he that believes not "shall be" damned.

Now, I understand why many Calvinists prefer modern versions of scripture that omit the last twelve verses of Mark.

 

[annsni]

I can't believe I have forgotten this verse. Without question it shows that faith precedes regeneration (being saved, having everlasting life).

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

This verse is plain as day, he that believes "shall be" saved, and he that believes not "shall be" damned.

Now, I understand why many Calvinists prefer modern versions of scripture that omit the last twelve verses of Mark.

Well, if someone who's well versed in Greek would address it, I'd like to know how the original is worded. I know I can look up on Blue Letter Bible but I'd like to know the tenses and such. That is usually quite revealing - much more so than in English.

 

[annsni]

I can't believe I have forgotten this verse. Without question it shows that faith precedes regeneration (being saved, having everlasting life).

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

This verse is plain as day, he that believes "shall be" saved, and he that believes not "shall be" damned.

Now, I understand why many Calvinists prefer modern versions of scripture that omit the last twelve verses of Mark.

This last sentence was added after I read your response and was responding to it.

This has nothing to do with why "Calvinists" prefer modern versions.

Oh - and I do believe the KJV translators ADDED the last 12 verses of Mark. Perspective, you know.

 

[Amy.G]

This last sentence was added after I read your response and was responding to it.

This has nothing to do with why "Calvinists" prefer modern versions.

Oh - and I do believe the KJV translators ADDED the last 12 verses of Mark. Perspective, you know.

Those verses are also in the ESV, which you prefer. Now if they were "added" as you say, then the ESV is in grave error by adding to the scriptures.

But there are other verses that say the same thing as the one in Mark. (ESV, for your benefit, no KJV translators involved)

Act 16:30 Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."


Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[Winman]

This last sentence was added after I read your response and was responding to it.

This has nothing to do with why "Calvinists" prefer modern versions.

Oh - and I do believe the KJV translators ADDED the last 12 verses of Mark. Perspective, you know.

I often go back and edit my posts if a verse or idea occurs to me afterwards.

Actually, it was after posting this verse that I remembered that many modern versions omit this verse. I have also noted in the past that Calvinists in particular do not like the KJB and prefer modern versions of scripture. I couldn't find the thread, but I believe a few months ago someone started a thread in Bible Versions/Translations that asked why Calvinists do not like the KJB or why do Calvinists prefer modern versions, something like that.

I can see why Calvinists would not be fond of Mark 16:16, because it definitely shows faith precedes regeneration (being saved).

 

[annsni]

I often go back and edit my posts if a verse or idea occurs to me afterwards.

Actually, it was after posting this verse that I remembered that many modern versions omit this verse. I have also noted in the past that Calvinists in particular do not like the KJB and prefer modern versions of scripture. I couldn't find the thread, but I believe a few months ago someone started a thread in Bible Versions/Translations that asked why Calvinists do not like the KJB or why do Calvinists prefer modern versions, something like that.

I can see why Calvinists would not be fond of Mark 16:16, because it definitely shows faith precedes regeneration (being saved).

Why would Calvinists not be fond of the Word of God? It actually does not show that faith precedes regeneration, though.

Oh and as Amy said, it's in the ESV, the Bible of MANY Calvinists. Hmmm - I guess they forgot to change that.

 

[Winman]

Those verses are also in the ESV, which you prefer. Now if they were "added" as you say, then the ESV is in grave error by adding to the scriptures.

But there are other verses that say the same thing as the one in Mark. (ESV, for your benefit, no KJV translators involved)

Act 16:30 Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."


Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Thank you Amy.

As anyone can see, there are numerous verses in the scriptures that say a person must first believe to be saved. There are probably many more besides these which have been shown already.

Here is another

1 Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

 

[zrs6v4]

nevermind...

 

[annsni]

Here is another

1 Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Or we read it in the NASB where the meaning is a bit different:

"et for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."

Not that they believe in Him in order to get eternal life but that they believe in Jesus FOR their eternal life. That they don't believe anyone else can give it to them but Jesus. I wonder again what the grammatical structure of the sentence is.

 

[Winman]

Or we read it in the NASB where the meaning is a bit different:

"et for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."

Not that they believe in Him in order to get eternal life but that they believe in Jesus FOR their eternal life. That they don't believe anyone else can give it to them but Jesus. I wonder again what the grammatical structure of the sentence is.

Are you going to question all of these numerous verses you have been shown? It seems you don't want to believe what the scriptures are telling you in plain language.

Some cannot seem to get it. Until you believe you are in your sins. The wages of sin is death. Until you believe you are condemned and the wrath of God abides on you. Until you believe you shall not see life.

If you are regenerated for only one minute before you hear the gospel and trust Jesus Christ, for that one minute you are a regenerated, born again, spiritually alive sinner. That is impossible.

But as I have shown, some Calvinists say a person can be regenerated for years before they believe on Jesus. This would be a person who is a born again, spiritually alive, and yet still dead in all their sins for years. It is amazing anyone could believe such a thing.

It would also be a person who has life without Jesus. This is tremendous error.

John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Jesus is life. If you don't have Jesus, you don't have life.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Some do not realize how serious this error is. If you can have life before you believe on Jesus, you are denying Jesus. That may sound cruel, but that is exactly what you are doing.

You can attempt to wiggle around this all you want, but you cannot have life until you first believe on Jesus and your sins are taken away.

 

[annsni]

No, I do not see Scripture supporting the idea of being born again without the knowledge of the person and years before they have faith. But I also do see clearly in Scripture that the natural man cannot come to God but that there must be a change in his heart before he can respond. I do not see this change in the heart as full salvation but instead a "quickening". We see in Ephesians 2 the evidence of this:

"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

Even when we were dead in our trespasses, God made us alive together with Christ. That says it all right there.

 

[Jim1999]

Just a thought on something that was said about calvinists not liking the kjv.......Well, I have been a strict calvinist most of my life and my only study bible is my kjv...Funny, innit!

Grace of God first works in man. The gift of faith follows and is progressive. Study the Old Testament. One example is Israel receiving the grace of God in a promise, yet they wandered 40 years in the desert, complaining, wandering, even cursing, before they believed. The story of the prodigal son in the NT is another example of the father's grace existing long before the son repented and returned to the father. Grace......faith......finally reunion.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[jbh28]

Just a thought on something that was said about calvinists not liking the kjv.......Well, I have been a strict calvinist most of my life and my only study bible is my kjv...Funny, innit!

Grace of God first works in man. The gift of faith follows and is progressive. Study the Old Testament. One example is Israel receiving the grace of God in a promise, yet they wandered 40 years in the desert, complaining, wandering, even cursing, before they believed. The story of the prodigal son in the NT is another example of the father's grace existing long before the son repented and returned to the father. Grace......faith......finally reunion.

Cheers,

Jim

I was wondering about Winman's statement too. I know Calvinist that only use the KJV. Many of the KJV translators were Calvinist. Beza who did work with the Greek text was a Calvinist.

 

[jbh28]

I often go back and edit my posts if a verse or idea occurs to me afterwards.

Actually, it was after posting this verse that I remembered that many modern versions omit this verse. I have also noted in the past that Calvinists in particular do not like the KJB and prefer modern versions of scripture. I couldn't find the thread, but I believe a few months ago someone started a thread in Bible Versions/Translations that asked why Calvinists do not like the KJB or why do Calvinists prefer modern versions, something like that.

I can see why Calvinists would not be fond of Mark 16:16, because it definitely shows faith precedes regeneration (being saved).

Well, Mark 16:16 has had it's issues with baptismal regeneration(catholics). I see that it teaches that belief is required for salvation. What Calvinist would deny that. There is no mention of regeneration in that passage that I saw.

Also, what modern version omits Mark 16:16?

I looked it up, the ESV, NASB, NIV, HCSB all have it included. Yes, they have a foot note noting that it's a textual variant, something that the KJV did in other places.

 

[Alive in Christ]

If someone places their faith in Jesus Christ for their eternal security and escaping hell, then whether they specifically "name" Jesus as "God" or the "Son of God" irrelavent.

By placing their faith...for eternal life...in Christ, they are declaring Him to be God...since only God can save someone.

Its a "heart" thing, not a "words" thing.

We dont ever want to fall into the error of proclaiming that certain "words" have to be said.