Atonement ‘made’ …WHERE?

[Dr. Walter]

Rev. 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

The tabernacle and temple on earth were FIGURES of the true temple in heaven. When you look at the figure on earth what do you see? You see a picture of the Triune God making provision for redemption for God's elect. When you look at Revelation 4-5 in heaven what do you see? You see the Triune God in heaven and redemption of His elect represented in the four beasts and 24 elders:

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

[scriptmemory]

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
Genesis 1:1

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God...***And I saw no temple therein***: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it."
Revelation 21:1-4, 22

"the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace."
Psalms 37:11

***There will be no temple in the new earth. There is a temple in heaven now, the reality of the shadow of priest, sacrifice, service. It is needed for all who died in faith of the lamb of God and high priestly ministry of Jesus Christ.***

 

[DHK]

***There will be no temple in the new earth. There is a temple in heaven now, the reality of the shadow of priest, sacrifice, service. It is needed for all who died in faith of the lamb of God and high priestly ministry of Jesus Christ.***

Jesus is risen, ascended into heaven, and now sits on the right hand of the Father. As he sits on the right hand of the Father (in His resurrected body) what kind of high priestly ministry do you envision that Christ now has?

 

[scriptmemory]

The Bible says,

"Wherefore he is able also to [future tense] save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them."
Hebrews 7:25

"Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us."
Romans 8:34

Jesus walked on earth for forty days after He received "all power."

"All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."
Matt. 28:18

"being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: And, being assembled together with them, commanded them..."
Acts 1:3, 4

Stephen saw

"the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."
Acts 7:56

Jesus "appeared" to Saul "in the way."

"Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way..."
Acts 9:17

Jesus as seen of John

"walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks" (the seven churches).
Rev. 2:1

Therefore "the right hand" signifies power given to Christ as High Priest after His first ascension for His high priestly ministry in the very real sanctuary service. (Heb. 9:1)

 

[Dr. Walter]

***There will be no temple in the new earth. There is a temple in heaven now, the reality of the shadow of priest, sacrifice, service. It is needed for all who died in faith of the lamb of God and high priestly ministry of Jesus Christ.***

Explain how Jesus and God are "the temple" in the new Jerusalem? Did they just become something they were not? What kind of Temple are they?

 

[scriptmemory]

The Bible clearly says as shown, that now the throne of God is in the temple in heaven, this temple is a real sanctuary in heaven, and in the future after the 1000 years when the New Jerusalem comes down from God out of heaven and the earth is made new there will be no temple in the new earth.

The burden is on Walter or anyone doubting these clear Bible points to prove it is not real or possible using Scripture. I will watch carefully and take note.

 

[Dr. Walter]

there will be no temple in the new earth.

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

What John saw was no PHYSICAL TEMPLE BUILDING. But he did see a temple in the new Jerusalem that was not a building. So, you are wrong, there is a temple in the New Jerusalem.

Now, my question again, Did God and the Lamb become something they were not previously before? They are "the temple" in the New Jerusalem and the New Jerusalem came down from heaven and therefore it is the same place that God dwells in heaven since Revelation 4. Did this "temple" that John saw and identified as "the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb" come into existence when the new heaven and earth was created by God or is it the same temple that existed in the New Jerusalem before Jerusalem came down on the new earth?

 

[DHK]

Jesus is risen, ascended into heaven, and now sits on the right hand of the Father. As he sits on the right hand of the Father (in His resurrected body) what kind of high priestly ministry do you envision that Christ now has?

You quoted some Scripture (many of them irrelevant), but you never answered my question (scriptmemory).

 

[scriptmemory]

You quoted some Scripture (many of them irrelevant), but you never answered my question (scriptmemory).

Which Scriptures were irrelevant?

 

[DHK]

Which Scriptures were irrelevant?

All of them are irrelevant unless you can in your own words demonstrate how they answer the simple question I posed to you:

what kind of high priestly ministry do you envision that Christ now has?

 

[scriptmemory]

You quoted some Scripture (many of them irrelevant), but you never answered my question (scriptmemory).

You asked what Jesus' ministry looks like. I quoted a text about His intercession, and showed that "sitting" at the right hand of the Father is found in perfect harmony with Him "walking" with the Disciples, "standing" at the right hand of the throne of God at Stephen's martyrdom, "appearing" in the road to Damascus and "walking" in the midst of the seven churches.

How could you miss that?

I don't know if you really want a Bible study on what Jesus is doing in the heavenly Sanctuary according to Revelation, Hebrews and the Bible in general but if you're interested, Jesus is wearing the garb of a priest in chapter 1 of Revelation and the garb of a king in Revelation 19. Two totally different roles. There will be no more need of salvation in the new earth, because only righteousness will dwell there so no need for the ministration of the temple IN WHICH the throne currently resides. If your question is requesting information not found in Scripture,

"The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever"
Deut. 29:29

The text shows that Christ has a high priestly ministry in the very real temple in heaven in which God's throne is. It is not my burden to show why any choose to disbelieve the very clear evidence of Scripture.

"Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man."

"Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount."
Heb. 8:1, 2, 5

"And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."
Rev. 11:19

 

[scriptmemory]

All of them are irrelevant unless you can in your own words demonstrate how they answer the simple question I posed to you:

what kind of high priestly ministry do you envision that Christ now has?

Now it's not the Bible's words, but my own words that are wanted. DHK, you don't mean that...I strive to keep the "old man" under control.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Again, Scriptmemory, Revelation 21 explicitly states there is a temple in the New Jerusalem and it is not a building but it is "The Lord God Almighty and the Lamb".

The new Jerusalem came down from heaven upon the new earth. Was this "temple" in the New Jerusalem before that city came down upon the new earth?

When did God and the Lamb become this "temple" in the New Jerusalem? Is there another temple in the New Jerusalem that was destroyed in heaven and this one took its place?

You cannot answer these questions can you? There is nothing now in the New Jerusalem in heaven that will be destroyed. There never has been in the New Jerusalem a different "temple" than the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb as that is the Temple that came down out of heaven but in the New Jerusalem.

The book of Revelation is given in "signs" and the temple in heaven described in Revelations 4-5 is signified as it really is The Lord God Almighty and the Lamb signified as the everlasting covenant of redemption that is inclusive of all the elect signified by the twenty four elders and four beasts (Rev. 5:9). You are confusing the signs in heaven with the reality of the Almight God and the Lamb who are salvation, and righteousness and sanctification and all that is contained in the eternal covenant of redemption that is symbolized in the earthly tabernacle and temple.

The Triune God and the eternal covenant of redemption is only symbolized in Revelation 4-5 but the Lord is our salvation, our righteousness, or redemption, our temple in heaven. He is our salvation and the tabernacle on earth symbolized our salvation "in" Him.

There is no ongoing High priestly work in heaven because it was finished on earth and what is in heaven is THE FINISHED ETERNAL COVENANT OF REDEMPTION that is merely being applied in time and on earth as the elect are born and brought to salvation and then to heaven.

 

[scriptmemory]

Again, Scriptmemory, Revelation 21 explicitly states there is a temple in the New Jerusalem and it is not a building but it is "The Lord God Almighty and the Lamb".

Revelation 21:22,

"And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it."
Rev. 21:22

Before the New Jerusalem comes down in heaven the Bible says is a temple:

"And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne."
Rev. 8:3

"And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."
Rev. 11:19

"And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle."
Rev. 14:7

"And after that I looked, and, behold,the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:"
Rev. 15:5

"And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done."
Rev. 16:17

You are having problems convincing me of your position if you merely say there is a temple in the new earth since John says he sees a temple in heaven and then says he doesn't see a temple on the new earth. It's really clear.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Revelation 21:22,

You are having problems convincing me of your position.

It because you accept the first half of the text and not the second half! Isn't all scripture inspired of God??? It is because you pit the first half against the second half!

You cannot harmonize the first half with the second half. The second half states clearly that the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb "ARE THE TEMPLE IN IT." So there is a Temple in heaven and it is defined explicitly and clearly. At the same time there is no other temple in heaven or the kind that men associate with the word "temple." There is no building in the New Jerusalem called a "temple" like SDA believes there is.

You are confusing the "signs" in heaven to be literal when they are further figures of the true temple of God in heaven which is still the true temple of God in the New Jerusalem when it comes down.

 

[DHK]

Now it's not the Bible's words, but my own words that are wanted. DHK, you don't mean that...I strive to keep the "old man" under control.

You are just like the Muslim I know. He has the entire NT memorized (more than I can say for the majority of Christians). But what good does memorization of Scripture (or in your case--copying and pasting) do, if you can't apply it. Like Jesus said:

Ye do err not knowing the Scriptures, neither the power of God.
Children can copy and paste Scripture as you have done. That is not difficult. If you can't answer questions, engage in the debate, then what good is it?

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: (1 Peter 3:15)

Peter was not just speaking of quoting Scriptures.

 

[scriptmemory]

It because you accept the first half of the text and not the second half! Isn't all scripture inspired of God??? It is because you pit the first half against the second half!

You cannot harmonize the first half with the second half. The second half states clearly that the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb "ARE THE TEMPLE IN IT." So there is a Temple in heaven and it is defined explicitly and clearly. At the same time there is no other temple in heaven or the kind that men associate with the word "temple." There is no building in the New Jerusalem called a "temple" like SDA believes there is.

You are confusing the "signs" in heaven to be literal when they are further figures of the true temple of God in heaven which is still the true temple of God in the New Jerusalem when it comes down.

"there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done."
Rev. 16:17

The throne is in the temple in heaven. Check.
The voice comes out of the temple in heaven from the throne in heaven. Check.
The voice is real. Check.
The throne is real. Check.
Heaven is real. Check.
The temple in the real heaven in which is the real throne, from whence comes the real voice, is not real?

John SAYS HE DOESN'T SEE a temple in the city in the new earth which Paul says is the great original (Heb. 8).

"In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke."
Isaiah 6:1-4

Isaiah heard the voice that shakes the pillars of the temple. Paul speaks of the great original after which the earthly was built. John sees this temple REPEATEDLY and tells us so in the Revelation. John says he DOESN'T see it in the earth made new. It's really simple. There is no need for ministration for the sins of God's people in the new earth because only righteousness will dwell there. We will be face to face with God there.

 

[scriptmemory]

You are just like the Muslim I know. He has the entire NT memorized (more than I can say for the majority of Christians). But what good does memorization of Scripture (or in your case--copying and pasting) do, if you can't apply it. Like Jesus said:

Ye do err not knowing the Scriptures, neither the power of God.
Children can copy and paste Scripture as you have done. That is not difficult. If you can't answer questions, engage in the debate, then what good is it?

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: (1 Peter 3:15)

Peter was not just speaking of quoting Scriptures.

I notice you didn't bother to address any of the Scripture I quoted but accused me of not applying. You should search "it is written", "have ye not read" "what saith the Scriptures" and "how readest thou" along with Peter's pentecostal sermon and Stephen's defense in the NT and report back with results on your definition of, "childishness." Hint: the Pharisees were quoting tradition and their fathers and their pre-conceived ideas necessitated Christ's strong endorsement to "search the Scriptures". The answers to the query suggested above in the NT will not bring the Pharisees up nearly as much as it will bring up Christ.

 

[DHK]

You asked what Jesus' ministry looks like. I quoted a text about His intercession, and showed that "sitting" at the right hand of the Father is found in perfect harmony with Him "walking" with the Disciples, "standing" at the right hand of the throne of God at Stephen's martyrdom, "appearing" in the road to Damascus and "walking" in the midst of the seven churches.

How could you miss that?

First, I didn't see this post until after I posted again.
The question is: How do you envision high priestly ministry of Christ NOW, seeing that NOW he is sitting on the right hand of God the Father in his resurrected body?
1. How is his present intercession and sitting at the right hand of the Father in harmony with "walking" with the disciples, and how is that of any relevance with his high priestly ministry of today? The disciples are dead.
2. Jesus stood to welcome Stephen home. Stephen was the first martyr. Jesus was still in his resurrection body at the right hand of the Father. What has that to do with his present high priestly ministry? What is the relevance?
3. So what if Jesus appeared on the road to Damascus. What has that got to do with the price of tea in China, or with his high priestly ministry in heaven. Like I said, children can copy and paste Scripture, but what is their relevance?
4. And "walking in the midst of seven churches"? So what? Again, I ask, relevance? What has that got to do with the present high priestly ministry of Christ. You haven't answered my question yet. You have given me nothing.

I don't know if you really want a Bible study on what Jesus is doing in the heavenly Sanctuary according to Revelation, Hebrews and the Bible in general but if you're interested, Jesus is wearing the garb of a priest in chapter 1 of Revelation and the garb of a king in Revelation 19.

So, is he two different people?
John saw two events. There is nothing to indicate that that is the way that Christ is clothed now. In fact there is nothing to indicate there is a sanctuary in heaven right now. Jesus is seated at the right hand of the throne of Father. Does that speak of a sanctuary to you?

Two totally different roles. There will be no more need of salvation in the new earth, because only righteousness will dwell there so no need for the ministration of the temple IN WHICH the throne currently resides.

Where does it say that the throne resides in a temple?

If your question is requesting information not found in Scripture, The text shows that Christ has a high priestly ministry in the very real temple in heaven in which God's throne is. It is not my burden to show why any choose to disbelieve the very clear evidence of Scripture.

NO, but when you assert something that may or may not be true, the onus is on you to give Scripture to support it.
Where is Scripture to show that Christ is seated in a Temple, as you assert? This is what you must demonstrate.
But more than that, you haven't really answered my question at all.
What is the nature of the high priestly ministry of Christ, seeing that he is sitting on the right hand of the throne of the Father. How does he accomplish it? What exactly is he doing as a High Priest?

 

[Dr. Walter]

The throne is in the temple in heaven. Check.
The voice comes out of the temple in heaven from the throne in heaven. Check.
The voice is real. Check.
The throne is real. Check.
Heaven is real. Check.
The temple in the real heaven in which is the real throne, from whence comes the real voice, is not real?

John SAYS HE DOESN'T SEE a temple in the city in the new earth which Paul says is the great original (Heb. 8).



Isaiah heard the voice that shakes the pillars of the temple. Paul speaks of the great original after which the earthly was built. John sees this temple REPEATEDLY and tells us so in the Revelation. John says he DOESN'T see it in the earth made new. It's really simple. There is no need for ministration for the sins of God's people in the new earth because only righteousness will dwell there. We will be face to face with God there.

Not so fast! Everything John heard and saw were in visions and given in signs. For example previously you stated you believed that Christ is presented as our high Pries in Revelation 1. Let us take a look starting at the beginning of this book:

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

You say that Christ is at work in the heavenly temple as our High Priest finishing the work of atonement.

When John turned to see who spoke he saw seven golden candlesticks. Now where are the candlesticks located? In the earthly type they are located in the temple and particluar the holy place of the temple. The High Preist that John saw was walking in the midst of the golden candlesticks.

The temple on earth had already been destroyed. If you believe this was written previous to the destruction of the temple on earth then how would a High priest on earth in the earthly temple walk in the "midst" of the candlesticks on earth as they were all connected to the same main stem with seven branches.

If this is in a literal temple in heaven then how can the seven candlesticks be called the seven churches addressed in this letter because they are ON EARTH.

If they REPRESENT the seven churches on earth than obviousl they are not LITERAL candlesticks in heaven but FIGURES of the churches on earth.

If part of the Temple furniture John saw in heaven are only FIGURES of things on earth than the temple furniture is not literal or real. If the temple furnature is not literal or real than neither is the temple literal or real but FIGURES of truths. Remember the candlesticks are found in the temple, in the holy place and yet these candlesticks were on earth and they are the seven churches described previously to this verse and after this verse.

20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

The temple in heaven is a FIGURE and everything about it is FIGURATIVE. For example, the altar of incense is defined as "the prayers" of the saints ascending up to heaven (rather than being in heaven).