Total Depravity = Hardening?

[webdog]

One thing is for certain. There are those that post on here that never cease to amaze me. Priceless.

To quote DHK, I didn't write the Bible, take it up with God. If you deny we are dead in our trespasses and sins you might as well rip that page out of your Bible.

 

[webdog]

There are 2 or 3 Pelagian's that post on here.

...and a couple of trolls.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Which is why I assume that Calvinist everyday are turning back to there homes in the Catholic faith and the Pope who doesn't believe Christ was the messiah is there waiting for there return.
MB

MB.....you do know what happens when you assume dont you?

Anyway, you proved yourself by your own mouth....particularly after that last comment. Thanks :laugh:

 

[MB]

MB.....you do know what happens when you assume dont you?

Anyway, you proved yourself by your own mouth....particularly after that last comment. Thanks :laugh:

What can I say the truth hurts. It's easy for Catholics to mislead the already misled.
MB

 

[Aaron]

Catholicism had no more formidable enemies than Calvin and Luther.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Catholicism had no more formidable enemies than Calvin and Luther.

Spurgeon was certainly no fan either.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

What can I say the truth hurts. It's easy for Catholics to mislead the already misled.
MB

If you were smart then you wouldn't say anything. Ive been a catholic so I stay as far away from that apostate religion as I can. Anyway catholics have a hard enough time convincing there own that they are legitimate ....there is no catholic movement out there trying to convert the Reformed. You are delusional. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Spurgeon was certainly no fan either.

Wonder what he must of thought of Free Will Baptists?:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Wonder what he must of thought of Free Will Baptists?:smilewinkgrin:

"The doctrine of justification itself, as preached by an Arminian, is nothing but the doctrine of salvation by works..." -- C.H. Spurgeon

Link: http://www.banneroftruth.org/pages/articles/article_detail.php?41

:smilewinkgrin:

 

[DHK]

Your interpretation of that passage as well as 2 Peter 3:9;John 3:16 etc. are in error.

So say you, with nothing but your opinion to back it up. Hilarious!

I like the word "satisfaction" as another way of expreesing the idea of 1 John 2:2 and other passages. I have used the term myself a number of times.

I agree. It gives an excellent sense of what the verse is saying.

But,again, you err when you claim that Christ paid the penalty of the sins of the whole world if you define "whole world as "each and every person who has and shall live on the earth.

John 3:16: "for God so loved the world...
--You want to alter that which is written.
1John 2:2...and not for ours only but for the sins of the whole world.
--The whole world. It means what it says. It doesn't say a few of the world. It says all the world. You can't get around that unless you directly deny what that verse is saying. The WHOLE world. That means ALL. Do you need it spelled out for you? I hate to be so sarcastic but the verse is so clear I don't see how anyone can deny this very important truth. The only reason one would deny it is because it doesn't fit into their frame of theology. They are boxed in with a frame of theology that does not allow this verse to fit, and must find a way out. They must find a way to deny this verse. So they add to it, and deliberately misinterpret it. That is sad.

Christ's death was for the benefit for His elect alone scattered throughout the earth --in the past,present and future. His death was international --world-wide but not for each-and-every.

That is not what 1John 2:2 says. It was for the benefit for all the world. If you don't believe that, go back to the Bible; Bible 101.

Christ's death secured the redemption of folks from among all every tribe,language,people and nation as Rev.5:9,7:9 and other passages reveal.

It secured the salvation of all who believe on His name and sacrificial death. Whosoever believes shall have eternal life.

Christ most certainly did not pay the penalty for those residing and those who shall reside in Hell.

In Revelation 20:10-15 Christ paid the penalty for all those standing before Christ. He paid the penalty for their sins. They rejected Him. They are now facing their final sentencing for the rejection of the truth. God did not select a number of people and pre-determine that they should go to Hell. That is a devilish doctrine. They will go there because they rejected Christ.

According to your view the reprobate are paying their own penalty for their sins even though Christ already paid the penalty for their sins! Sorry, that does not biblically compute.

No, that is your view.
I have constantly said that Christ paid the penalty for all the sins of all the people. You deny that. He is the propitiation not for our sins only but for the sins of all the world, just as the Bible says. But you deny that simple truth.

You have to compare Scripture with Scripture --the analogy of Scripture principle. I have said before that John 10:51,52 matches up with and connects the dots with 1 John 2:2.

I take Scripture literally in the context which it is set in; in its chapter and in the book that is set in. I don't try to force other Scripture from other books and try to make the verse say something it doesn't say. The Bible says that those who do: "wrest the Scriptures to their own destruction." I trust that you are not doing that.

 

[DHK]

here are your responses; It is clear that you differ from scripture.

I quote Scripture, and you argue against it. Am I the one who differs from it?

Yet the scripture I posted in ezk34 says God will,I will,..not the sheep will.

In the Book of Ezekiel, Jehovah is speaking to his chosen nation, Israel.

Your false idea of "free will" forces you to twist the work of God into the work of man. When you say...we are saved-because we you highlight your error. You compound the error when you say this;

"of their own free will." And that is error? How?
Here is the Scripture I posted:

We are saved because we respond to the word of God. It is the message of the gospel that saves.
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (1 Corinthians 1:18)
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; (1 Corinthians 1:23)
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Romans 1:16)

They must respond to the gospel. If they don't they will perish.
Previously I also quoted:
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved,
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shalt be saved.
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. (Acts 10:43)
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. (Acts 4:12)
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (John 1:12)
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24)
--All of the above Scripture demands that a man exercise his free will!

You have reversed the scriptural order. You have mans supposed "free will"
in the place of God ,effectively making an idol of it,yousay;

You deny the Scripture I post. You can't reconcile it with your own system of theology and end up denying the Word of God.

Then we have the classic pull it out of context and have the text say what it does not.

Show me where I have pulled any of those Scriptures out of their context.

 

[jbh28]

John 3:16: "for God so loved the world...
--You want to alter that which is written.
1John 2:2...and not for ours only but for the sins of the whole world.
--The whole world. It means what it says. It doesn't say a few of the world. It says all the world. You can't get around that unless you directly deny what that verse is saying. The WHOLE world. That means ALL. Do you need it spelled out for you? I hate to be so sarcastic but the verse is so clear I don't see how anyone can deny this very important truth. The only reason one would deny it is because it doesn't fit into their frame of theology. They are boxed in with a frame of theology that does not allow this verse to fit, and must find a way out. They must find a way to deny this verse. So they add to it, and deliberately misinterpret it. That is sad.

Luke 2:1 "And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed."

 

[Martin Marprelate]

And yet in contradiction to that statement the Bible clearly says:

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

If you have a Bible that says this, you have a Bible that is not a good translation. The words 'The sins of' do not appear in any Greek (or Latin) text. They are an 'Interpretative Gloss' by the translators. Check out the NKJV.

Steve

 

[Skandelon]

Still waiting for a Calvinist here to explain the difference between someone who is Total Depraved and has grown hardened versus one who is just Totally Depraved. Neither of them hear, see, understand and repent, right? If so, why does the bible say that those not yet hardened can see, hear, understand and repent: John 12:39-41; Acts 28:21-28; Mark 4; Matt. 13 etc??

Why does God send a spirit of stupor to people so they can't believe if they were born unable to believe? Why blind and man born totally blind? Why hide the gospel in parables from people lest they repent if indeed they are born unable to repent?

Can any Calvinists address the OP?

 

[DHK]

If you have a Bible that says this, you have a Bible that is not a good translation. The words 'The sins of' do not appear in any Greek (or Latin) text. They are an 'Interpretative Gloss' by the translators. Check out the NKJV.

Steve

Darby's translation

and *he* is the propitiation for our sins; but not for ours alone, but also for the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

And does it change the meaning of the verse any?

No?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Darby's translation

and *he* is the propitiation for our sins; but not for ours alone, but also for the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

And does it change the meaning of the verse any?

No?

I believe it does. Check out the 1John 2:2 thread to avoid duplication.

Steve

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Still waiting for a Calvinist here to explain the difference between someone who is Total Depraved and has grown hardened versus one who is just Totally Depraved. Neither of them hear, see, understand and repent, right? If so, why does the bible say that those not yet hardened can see, hear, understand and repent: John 12:39-41; Acts 28:21-28; Mark 4; Matt. 13 etc??

Why does God send a spirit of stupor to people so they can't believe if they were born unable to believe? Why blind and man born totally blind? Why hide the gospel in parables from people lest they repent if indeed they are born unable to repent?

Can any Calvinists address the OP?

I did answer you way back in Post #34. You may not like my answer, and you may not agree with it, but I did answer you.

Steve

 

[Skandelon]

I did answer you way back in Post #34. You may not like my answer, and you may not agree with it, but I did answer you.

Steve, with all due respect, I rebutted your point about being born "dead" and asked for clarification on your other point in post #36 and showed the error of your analogy in post #37, but don't recall any answers.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Steve, with all due respect, I rebutted your point about being born "dead" and asked for clarification on your other point in post #36 and showed the error of your analogy in post #37, but don't recall any answers.

I have a life outside this forum and tend not to involve myself in enormously long threads. You asked why no one had responded to you. I did respond. End of story. You don't have to like my response for it to be a response.

Steve

 

[Iconoclast]

I do not believe you formed these ideas on your own as you claim here.
The odds of two people more than 1900 years apart coming up with the exact same theology just isn't possible. I've had Calvinist make this claim before. I just do not believe you. What can I say the only truth is God's absolute truth.

Then according to you no one is indwelt by the Holy Spirit not even your self. And you think I border on ignorance. No one is saved with out the Holy Spirit.


1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Teachers teach us about Christ so that we might be converted after conversion and we submit to the righteousness of Christ. We then have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of us and He teaches us.

The reformation of the Catholic faith is a mistake built on a false Christianity. Where men worship Mary and other so called saints.

What I said about grace I stand behind. Grace is a loving favor that can only be had while we are in submission to Him.
The rebels of the world are not saved until they lay down there rebellion and submit.

Faith and submission is not works. Submission is giving up the fight and faith is a gift from God. Eph 2:8

Too funny :laugh: Paul certainly was no calvinist. Only your arrogance would cause you to claim it to be so.


What a load of bull. Here we have that particular few who are allowed to believe. The doctrines of grace as you call them do not exist in scripture. They didn't exist at all until Calvinist formed them for a response to the Arminians. They only exist in the confused mind of the Calvinist. Which is why I assume that Calvinist everyday are turning back to there homes in the Catholic faith and the Pope who doesn't believe Christ was the messiah is there waiting for there return.
MB

MB>

I do not believe you formed these ideas on your own as you claim here.
]

You can believe or not believe what you want.
The first part of scripture I memorized is Jn 6:37-44.

37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Mb....as long as these passages are in the bible,what you post will continue to be non biblical.
Then you totally mis-read what I posted.If you cannot read a post correctly how do you expect to grasp scripture? you say;

Then according to you no one is indwelt by the Holy Spirit not even your self. And you think I border on ignorance. No one is saved with out the Holy Spirit.

This response you gave was when I was asking you; so you are saying that none of the reformers were indwelt by the Spirit? Only you have the Spirit.
I knew by your post it would not be long before you would mis-apply 1 jn 2:27.
You are an infallible interpreter right? You do not need God appointed teachers.That is another verse that you do not understand.

The reformation of the Catholic faith is a mistake

not sure where you are going with this.

Too funny :laugh: Paul certainly was no calvinist

sure he was.most all of calvinism so called is based on the teachings of Jesus and the apostles, paul was centrally used to bring forth many of these truths

Your inability to grasp the truth might be a warning sign that maybe 1jn 2;27 is not at work in you.It is not according to your own testimony that you do not understand, but you actively oppose as you say here;

What a load of bull. Here we have that particular few who are allowed to believe. The doctrines of grace as you call them do not exist in scripture.

This hysterical statement places you outside the historic faith.

Calvinist everyday are turning back to there homes in the Catholic faith and the Pope

What are you talking about with this? I have no idea what you are speaking about here.