20/20 response

[dcorbett]

<<As long as IFB preachers and colleges are teaching that men are the ULTIMATE authority, women should put up with abuse to be "submissive" etc. there is the potential for great harm. That potential is expanded by the lack of accountability in IFB churches.>>

IFB preachers and colleges? The BIBLE plainly teaches what you are arguing against - that the husband is the head!

Ephesians 5:22-23
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

I don't think that the above scripture is hard to understand. It doesn't say to put up with abuse. It is positive and perfect, just like the rest of the Bible. We cannot say we believe the Bible unless we believe ALL of it.

 

[abcgrad94]

I am so sorry that my comments earlier in the thread came across as hurtful or non-caring. That was certainly not my intention.

Apology accepted. Thank you.

 

[dcorbett]

and my posts are not meant to be hurtful. They are posted with prayer and with love.

 

[MamaCW]

I have to split this one into 2

If you ever find the perfect church, don't go there, you'll mess it up.

hahahaha..ah man...
true

MamaCW, there is a big difference between "trash talking" and bringing the truth of sin out into the light.

I realize that on this thread and the previous one that was mercifully closed, I made comments that some believed were aimed at ALL IFBs and accusing to all IFBs in general. I want to apologize for offending anyone here who is truly trying to live a godly life.
This is basically the MAIN point of my irritation, and the basis behind my points..

I do not wish to portray ALL IFBs as monsters, child molesters, and wife abusers simply because that is all I've ever seen and all I've ever known in the many, many churches I've attended that were IFB.

I think its crazy that every IFB church you've been to is full of all that...I've been to a few and have not seen any of that..yeah i've seen drama..and I've seen a couple scandals here and there but to slander the IFB name because of the people ..is ridiculous to me... I've seen girls get knocked up young at church, a pastor leave because of an affair, I've had my own issues when I was growing up in the church..part of the reason I originally left the church, and I have a cousin who completely turned away from the church and doesn't really have a relationship with God anymore because of the church (but I see it for what it is..she got herself involved in gossip, and couldn't handle the repercussions of some of her decisions..but that happens anywhere and everywhere, school, work, etc.. where ever there are human beings, there will be drama...

There is a slight possibility that some of you are not guilty of this and you are innocent until proven guilty.

On the other hand, I'd like to explain how the reactions of some of you have caused me much grief. Maybe, in your ignorance, you do not understand what it is like to be abused, indoctrinated, judged, and repressed until you become a walking shell of a person.

umm..no..just because people don't respond to certain things, in this case the IFB camp, like you do does not mean they haven't experienced their issues.. I've had my issues with the church I grew up in..and now that i am attending again..I left the church BECAUSE of how the people were and because of how alot of the people responded to me with certain circumstances (and this was in our spanish congregation...)...i've seen the people with the "holier than thou" mentality and how they treat those (such as myself at that point) they do not feel are good enough...but i grew up..and I guess maybe you call it healing..but I "healed" from my experiences and drama.. and i've matured since then and realized that no church is perfect...people aren't perfect..I'm going to a church where the word of God is being preached and not changed...THATS why I'm there..there's people I still wont talk to that i see there each week..and not because I havent forgiven them, but because I see they are still as shady as they were when I was younger.. and i'm fine with that..I know why I'm there, and that's all that matters...So yes.. I DO know what it feels like to be judged, PRE judged, misunderstood, hurt, betrayed, talked about, belittled..whatever you want to call it..

Psa 119:165 --Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing
shall offend them.

Many of the comments here want to deny your churches are even capable of such, and I'm here to tell you, YES THEY ARE. You personally might be deceived, as many were by my own parents, and do not believe your precious friends capable of such.

You know..there was a situation that occurred when I was younger during a youth retreat..I put myself in a situation that looked questionable, although I and the other person involved there was NOTHING wrong committed...By the time we got back at the end of the week, my grandma has already heard from someone..and to this day I still dont know what exactly they my have insinuated that we did (and frankly I really don't care now lol)..but at that time I was so hurt that my grandma did not believe me when I said nothing had happened... my grandma would believe anyone at church over me anytime and everytime..yeah it sucks ..but has it completely reshaped my thinking and opinons? ..nope... and I am not one of those people that would sit and say "oh no my church would NEVER do something like that".. I can only tell you how it is NOW..but that doesnt mean there wont ever be some dumb scandal..point is..even if it does happen in the future..I'm not going to get all crazy about it ..I'm going to expect things to get handled the right way.. and continue on with my life..if it doesnt and and whatever it is affects what I'm receiving from the pulpit every week, I'll just move on and find a new church...as for any kind of abuse within the church, I cant speak on that..i've dealt with it outside of the church..and it hasn't messed me up emotionally, mentally, etc.. (at least I dont think so)..but I don't distrust all men because of some boneheads that abused things when I was a little girl...

 

[MamaCW]

Maybe you are blinded by your own self-righteousness.
Who's self righteous? lol...I haven't read anyone say ANYTHING that would read as a self-righteous responds..theres nothing self righteous about.. "I'm sorry you went to a few retarded churches but don't say we're all like that because we aren't"..


I don't know. I do know that for healing to begin, you must admit there is a problem, and several of you here do not want to believe that.

wow.. i don't think anyone here does not believe that fact..that can be said with ANYTHING..breakups, divorces, addictions, abuse, etc.. but you're assuming everyone here needs to heal about something just because they go to an IFB church

You don't want to hear it or deal with it. You want to distance yourselves from the problem and say it doesn't exist, or is rare. I'm telling you, it DOES exist and the consequences are damaging for those who experience it.
And you dont want to hear and realize that NOT EVERYONE HAS GONE TO A MESSED UP CHURCH .....

As long as IFB preachers and colleges are teaching that men are the ULTIMATE authority, women should put up with abuse to be "submissive" etc. there is the potential for great harm. That potential is expanded by the lack of accountability in IFB churches.
NO church I've been to preaches that..NO church i've even seen/heard online has preached that... men ARE the authority in the home..no matter how much you or any other women with even the slightest feministic tendancies want to say that this isn't so..the bible reads loud and clear..and the bible does not say women should put up with abuse and no one i've heard preach has said the bible says that..just like their are abusive men OUTSIDE of religion.. you are going to have abusive men INSIDE too...they are going to be abusive whether they know what the bible says or not..don't say all IFB men are women abusers..because thats not true..

Not a single one of you here, except for Don, has indicated any interest in HELPING victims of this abuse.
Umm.. I dont know anyone who has been abused in the church...if i did..i'd probably offer my help.. and I know you've said you've been a victim of abuse...you know what ABC.. i'm feel sorry for you..not in a sense of pity..but sympathetically..because this has OBVIOUSLY traumatized you/affected you...and I would truly sincerely say that I'd want to hear your story and what has occurred..I'd love to help anyway I could..but you your narrow IFB stereotyping is screaming out a whole lot louder than the cry for help.. all i hear is bashing..not someone who would like to get help..i hear more bitterness than the hurt that i see is inside..and figuratively speaking..the screaming hurts my ears ...

You've all yelled about how wonderful your churches are and how hard you are trying to serve God. You've called me bitter and basically told me to shut up simply for trying to bring sin to light.
I agree..my church is wonderful (not perfect, not sinless, and not super holy and righteous).. and yep.. I am trying my hardest to serve God..and yes all I see is bitterness covering the layers of hurt that obviously need to be aired out..and i havent told you to shut up for trying to bring sin to light...if that's what I saw you doing..i'd probably be right there trying to help you out.. but thats NOT what i see.. i see someone who's trying to pack a whole lot of innocent churches and servants into a category they do not belong in all because they carry the same name of those that have wronged you...

It doesn't matter to me all the GOOD that you've done. Show some LOVE and admit you can do more to prevent abuse and protect the innocent. Show me some humility and compassion and maybe I'll care about all your good works.
No offense but why should I care about what YOU think of my good works...I (and everyone else here you may be directing this to) don't answer to you...nobody here needs to prove themselves to you

If any of you are really ready to admit that maybe, just maybe, you or your church is overlooking abuse, I'll be happy to help give you some guidelines of things to look for to help others.

again.. thats with ASSUMING there's abuse...and I doubt you are the only one that has seen abuse..i'm sure plenty here know how to see signs and symptoms of abuse..

Until then, I'm done trying to convince you that you aren't as perfect as you think.
Lol..you don't know me...and even if you did, I wouldnt need you to convince me that I'm not perfect..i know that perfectly well I even have photos to prove it to myself lol...

Some of you have no idea that you're actually adding to the pain of others by your careless, judgmental, defensive attitudes.

No you are hurting yourself with your ignorant thinking, and your OWN careless judgmental attitude....and you truly turn people away by that bitter attitude....

I love you all, but I pray God will open your eyes to the truth before more people, like myself, are severely damaged by IFB churches.

That's not love.... if you wanted to accomplish that..why not just simply tell your SPECIFIC story instead of yelling out against the IFB name that has many many innocent churches..you apologized a few paragraphs up about putting EVERY IFB in the category..but the rest of your post just continued to do that...I'm sure you can help/teach others a whole lot more by just giving YOUR testimony rather than crying foul at everything labeled IFB


[/QUOTE]

I'm getting so over this IFB hating nonsense..its starting to give me a headache lol :BangHead:

 

[abcgrad94]

I am not interested in admitting to abuse I am not aware of or am not involved in...and/or have not witnessed. I have hundreds of hours of training in reference to various types of abuse through my 25 year law enforcement employment AND after being on the local domestic violence/sexual assault hotline when I was backslidden and not attending church. (I say that because I don't have time for secular activities now, I am involved in ministries at church these days.)

I sincerely will continue to pray for you....that your heart will finally heal and that you will find the peace that passeth all understanding through Jesus our Lord.

Debbie, nobody is asking you to admit to something you haven't done. I just really wish you would understand that the potential is there, that it is possible there is MUCH more we ALL could be doing to prevent abuse and help the victims heal. You yourself said earlier that none of us are perfect. That's right. None of us, including people we love, respect, and look up to. We must not delude ourselves into thinking it can't/won't/didn't happen.

If you have such vast experience and training, perhaps you will post a new thread with some tips to help people be more aware and discerning. However, spiritual, verbal, and mental abuse are just as damaging as physical and sexual abuse. Often one form will escalate and lead to another form. The scars from these are not always visible. That doesn't mean they aren't there!

I would like to see some discussion on how all churches, especially IFBs, plan to help victims/survivors of abuse. So far, no one but Don has attempted to do that. Why? A couple of posts have talked about protecting the church from lawsuits. OK, but what about helping people heal? What about helping people financially with expensive counseling? Must the victims be ignored?

 

[abcgrad94]

MamaCW, you have completely misinterpreted my post. I've said what I've said and I stand by it. Whether you believe it or not is up to you.

A word of wisdom here. Try thinking before you respond, ok? Your words are very hurtful and come across as full of pride. Your words and tone are like a razor, slicing open old scars trying to heal. I realize you are very young and new here. Try getting to know us before flying off the handle.

 

[MamaCW]

MamaCW, you have completely misinterpreted my post. I've said what I've said and I stand by it. Whether you believe it or not is up to you.

A word of wisdom here. Try thinking before you respond, ok? Your words are very hurtful and come across as full of pride. Your words and tone are like a razor, slicing open old scars trying to heal. I realize you are very young and new here. Try getting to know us before flying off the handle.

LOL..Sorry.. its hard for me not to come off that way sometimes (see my newest thread)..i doubt it has anything to do with me being new here. ..young and fiery..yes..that probably is it..

as for your post..where did i misinterpret? I responded specifically to each thought/statement..and I have pretty good comprehension..I've always been advanced in English Composition and Critical thinking classes (lol..joke..although i really have haha..)

 

[dcorbett]

Debbie, nobody is asking you to admit to something you haven't done. I just really wish you would understand that the potential is there

Yes, of course, the potential is there. The potential is there ANYWHERE, IN ANY CHURCH. I just don't want ALL IFB churches raked over the coals continually, which I have seen in this and other sections over years I have been a member of this forum.

I often have to tell people that until a crime is committed, there isn't a whole lot the police dept can do. (when they call about "potential" crime) - We enforce the infraction of laws. The educational aspect is an expense that we cannot shoulder.

I would like to see some discussion on how all churches, especially IFBs, plan to help victims/survivors of abuse. So far, no one but Don has attempted to do that. Why? A couple of posts have talked about protecting the church from lawsuits. OK, but what about helping people heal? What about helping people financially with expensive counseling? Must the victims be ignored?

Why "especially IFB" ?? Do you realize that in the world of other denominations, ALL Baptists are considered backward, reactionary, and staid? In fact, conservative America is synonymous with the "Bible belt" and that lumps all Southern Bible-believers into the same boat, doesn't it??

So I think it is your perception that IFB churches need to address the issue more than other Baptist groups. I have said several times that I personally witnessed sinful and lewd behavior from a Southern Baptist pastor in the last 60s that was totally ignored and hidden by the church I belonged to....but I have worked through that issue and I don't harbor ill towards that Pastor OR the churches he associated with.

Our world is full of black ugly sin. There is more abuse out there than the regular citizen will ever comprehend. People of all types of backgrounds have a multitude of sin and disgust in their lives. This is not to excuse it, but you must admit, people in churches (ALL churches) came out of that world....and as long as we have "the flesh" to contend with, there will be sin in our lives. Only when we have finally been released from this sinful flesh, will we be able to comprehend the spiritual nature we will "put on" for eternity with Christ.

 

[Aaron]

So, for y'all who are so offended that your IFB church might get a bad rap, tell me, what exactly does your church do to prevent, treat, and discern abuse? Anybody can run a background check. Big deal. Tell me what your church does to protect others from abuse? What training and qualifications does your church provide to Sunday school teachers, deacons, elders, nursery workers, youth ministers, etc? What policies are written in your church records that indicate this training? What does your church do for victims of abuse if/when it is spotted? How does your church treat those who try to bring abuse to light? Are they automatically labeled as liars, troublemakers, or bitter, ungodly people who just need to learn to "forgive?"

What does yours do?

 

[Mexdeaf]

What does yours do?

Not to put words in abdgrad's mouth, but what if she no longer attends one? In other words-

I have met a few people who will no longer darken the door of a church due to abuse- physical, emotional, or verbal- that they suffered at the hands of "pastors" and "church members".

While it may be unfair for them to consider all of the above as equal, yet they do. And many of those "churches" and the people associated with them just write those people off as backsliders or gossipers.

"I've never seen it happen, so it doesn't" and "It can't happen here" unfortunately seems to be the prevailing attitude in many churches.

 

[MamaCW]

Not to put words in abdgrad's mouth, but what if she no longer attends one? In other words-

I have met a few people who will no longer darken the door of a church due to abuse- physical, emotional, or verbal- that they suffered at the hands of "pastors" and "church members".

While it may be unfair for them to consider all of the above as equal, yet they do. And many of those "churches" and the people associated with them just write those people off as backsliders or gossipers.

"I've never seen it happen, so it doesn't" and "It can't happen here" unfortunately seems to be the prevailing attitude in many churches.

Actually she does..she's a pastor's wife from Calvary Baptist Church according to her profile (unless it hasn't been updated)..

as for the prevailing attitude and unequal comparison comments you made... that is why this conversation seems to continue on..because the point trying to be made (by my side of the argument at least) is that although it may be the attitude in "many" churches, to assume that's the attitude in ALL churches with IFB name on is, as has been stated, is a completely false and ignorant statement...

if we can get 1 person to realize that their stereotypical mentality of IFB church's is not in fact an accurate presumption..then we just made the world a little bit of a better place lol...actually not really.. that's just 1 less person posting incorrect criticism on these boards lol

 

[MamaCW]

by the way..good question Aaron

 

[abcgrad94]

the point trying to be made (by my side of the argument at least) is that although it may be the attitude in "many" churches, to assume that's the attitude in ALL churches with IFB name on is, as has been stated, is a completely false and ignorant statement...

that's just 1 less person posting incorrect criticism on these boards lol

It has already been said that not ALL IFB churches are absolutely, positively this way. It is, however, what many of us have seen in many IFB churches.

As far as "incorrect information" being posted, those of us who have shared our IFB experiences are not liars as you seem to believe. Rather than accept the fact that abuse has happened and continues to happen in IFB churches, y'all seem to care more about what people think of you. The posts on this thread continue to demonstrate the cultish indoctrination I grew up with--that is, if anyone says anything "bad" about IFB churches in general, three things happen.
1. Defend the perfection of the church at all costs
2. Deny there is a problem
3. Attack the messenger

Another cultish belief I see demonstrated here is that IFBs want to control others. In this thread it seems you and others want to control what people think and say about IFBs in general. That is a general IFB trait I have seen over and over--control.

I am done casting my pearls before swine on this thread. I have more important things to do than waste my time here. There are kinder, loving people out there I can associate with.

 

[Mexdeaf]

It has already been said that not ALL IFB churches are absolutely, positively this way. It is, however, what many of us have seen in many IFB churches.

As far as "incorrect information" being posted, those of us who have shared our IFB experiences are not liars as you seem to believe. Rather than accept the fact that abuse has happened and continues to happen in IFB churches, y'all seem to care more about what people think of you. The posts on this thread continue to demonstrate the cultish indoctrination I grew up with--that is, if anyone says anything "bad" about IFB churches in general, three things happen.
1. Defend the perfection of the church at all costs
2. Deny there is a problem
3. Attack the messenger

Another cultish belief I see demonstrated here is that IFBs want to control others. In this thread it seems you and others want to control what people think and say about IFBs in general. That is a general IFB trait I have seen over and over--control.

I am done casting my pearls before swine on this thread. I have more important things to do than waste my time here. There are kinder, loving people out there I can associate with.

Emphases mine- I can't add anything more to this. Good post.

 

[RAdam]

It has already been said that not ALL IFB churches are absolutely, positively this way. It is, however, what many of us have seen in many IFB churches.

As far as "incorrect information" being posted, those of us who have shared our IFB experiences are not liars as you seem to believe. Rather than accept the fact that abuse has happened and continues to happen in IFB churches, y'all seem to care more about what people think of you. The posts on this thread continue to demonstrate the cultish indoctrination I grew up with--that is, if anyone says anything "bad" about IFB churches in general, three things happen.
1. Defend the perfection of the church at all costs
2. Deny there is a problem
3. Attack the messenger

Another cultish belief I see demonstrated here is that IFBs want to control others. In this thread it seems you and others want to control what people think and say about IFBs in general. That is a general IFB trait I have seen over and over--control.

I am done casting my pearls before swine on this thread. I have more important things to do than waste my time here. There are kinder, loving people out there I can associate with.

I see that you practice what you preach.

 

[dcorbett]

at least I am a swine saved by grace through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Gina B]

There's not just one or two people hurt by one or two IFB churches.
Yes, there are other denoms but we on this board are all Baptist and so we're talking about Baptist denominations.

I've had a wide variety of experiences relating to IfB churches and have spoken to and/or interviewed people from states across the country concerning their experiences in IFB church.

My worst times were spent in IFB churches. My best times were spent in other IFB churches. There seems to be a trend that IFB churches in the Bible belt and surrounding it are more likely to be abusive style churches where IFB churches in places like California and Oregon tend to be more open and treat women a lot better. I believe that to be a general truth.

In the churches where I and others have been abused physically, emotionally, and/or spiritually, the victim was treated as a liar and the abuser held up as a pillar of the church. Never did the church bring in authorities from outside the church or do the right thing by calling the police and filing a report. Typically, a church or outreach of the church (such as a children's home) with abuses swept under the rug doesn't get exposed unless one very strong person, usually a person who went through the abuse as a child, grows up and speaks out. That takes guts and not a lot of people can handle doing that, but some do. What are the results? Not good. Go look into Bethel, at Herman Fountain and all that's gone on there. Victims who dare speak out against places and people tend to get dragged through the mud and traumatized all over again.

You want to talk about hate? I HATE THE ABUSERS. I don't pray not to hate them because I believe that God hates sin and we're to hate enemies of God. Pray for them? Yes. Hate them and their sin? Yes. HATE IT WITH A PASSION. Scream it from the rooftops when you see and hear it, bring it out under bright shining lights for all to see and know that true Christianity doesn't hide sin and doesn't protect abusers. The witness of a precious child of God who has been harmed by wolves in sheep's clothing is not called gossip. It is what they should be doing and it takes strength beyond what many people who have never been through it can understand because when witnesses to abuse come forward, they're treated like dirt or accused of wrong doing instead of having their wounds dressed and being surrounded by the healing love that other Christians owe to one another in the name of Jesus Christ.

This thread shouldn't be an argument, a fight, or even a debate. Sin is sin. Hate the sin. Love the hurting. Put blame on the perpetrator, not on the victim.

It's pretty simple.

People are getting upset because they feel their denomination is being attacked. It isn't. The sin that is associated with the denomination is being attacked. Deny it all you want, but IFB churches have less oversight (often none) than many other Baptist denominations and a higher tendency to give singular people high amounts of power. This is a volatile combination that leads to higher amounts of corruption. Plain and simple. That fact must faced and far too many people prefer not to and go further by fighting and vigorously denying the problem even exists. All that does is allow it to continue further because those doing that inadvertently are giving them protection. PLEASE STOP DOING THAT.

 

[TCassidy]

I'm sorry Gina but you just don't know what you are talking about. There are slightly over 10,000 IFB churches. How many of them were you a member of or have first hand information about? I would be willing to wager it is less than one tenth of one percent. That leaves 9,990 IFB churches you know absolutely nothing about. Remember what the bible has to say about judging a thing before you know all the facts. Proverbs 18:13 "He who answers a matter before he hears it, it is folly and shame to him."

 

[DHK]

There's not just one or two people hurt by one or two IFB churches.
Yes, there are other denoms but we on this board are all Baptist and so we're talking about Baptist denominations.

I've had a wide variety of experiences relating to IfB churches and have spoken to and/or interviewed people from states across the country concerning their experiences in IFB church.

My worst times were spent in IFB churches. My best times were spent in other IFB churches. There seems to be a trend that IFB churches in the Bible belt and surrounding it are more likely to be abusive style churches where IFB churches in places like California and Oregon tend to be more open and treat women a lot better. I believe that to be a general truth.

In the churches where I and others have been abused physically, emotionally, and/or spiritually, the victim was treated as a liar and the abuser held up as a pillar of the church.

I don't go to SBC churches, but I do know that Paul Washer is the pastor of one. I also know that he holds to some serious doctrinal errors, which have caused harm to many a person. Should I conclude that all SBC churches are like his?