No problems. I started a reply to you last night but caught myself rushing through it so I just erased it. I'm on a public computer so my time online is usually limited.
Take as long as you need or like. Duty is requiring me to spend less time at my computer recently, and my DSL modem went bad, I'm on dial-up service till the new one gets in; man o man, has high speed internet ever spoiled me!
....would you say that these in John 16:12-15 were in the 'present reality of that spiritual realm' because they were already born again?
I cannot answer that question, I don't know. If they weren't, they sure missed a good opportunity, IMO. The Comforter had not yet come, they had not yet been clothed with power from on high, but Christ was present. I must admit though, from reading the accounts it seems to me they were more carnal than spiritual.
Notice in Jn 3 Christ is not saying that all who have been born from above will enter into the kingdom, or will always abide in the kingdom; He is saying that before one can see the kingdom, or enter into the kingdom, one must first be born from above. In Jn 1:12,13, those that were born of God (from above) and received Christ were given the power to become children of God (practically, experientially, in name), it doesn't say that they fully exercised that power. In the beatitudes, Christ is giving some common traits of those that have been born from above, and to whom also the kingdom belonged; fortunate indeed they were, because these traits came not from the flesh, but from the divine nature that had been given to them from above. I often wonder how many of God's redeemed, born from above children have actually ever 'laid hold on eternal life', and have experienced the joy and peace and righteousness of the Holy Spirit, which is the kingdom of God, which is their birthright, which is their salvation. Edersheim on Lu 13:23,24 (which I think can also apply to Jn 3:3,5):
“Viewed in connection with Christ's immediately preceding teaching about the Kingdom of God in its wide and deep spread, as the great Mustard-Tree from the tiniest seed, and as the Leaven hid, which pervaded three measures of meal, we can scarcely doubt that
the word 'saved' bore reference, not to the eternal state of the soul, but to admission to the benefits of the Kingdom of God, the Messianic Kingdom, with its privileges and its judgments, such as the Pharisees understood it......”
....and as Nicodemus the Pharisee would have understood it. I would paraphrase what Christ is saying in Jn 3:3,5 thus:
'Except one be born from above, one can neither see the kingdom of God nor gain admission to it's benefits.'
...and again, it doesn't say that all those that have been born from above will experience the benefits of that kingdom. Yeah, I dare say there were many of that generation in particular who had been 'enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come', and then fell away, and returned to that apostate Jewish ecclesiastical system that had crucified their Lord; and by doing so 'they put Him to an open shame', and 'trod under foot the Son of God, and counted the blood of the covenant wherewith they were sanctified an unholy thing, and did despite unto the Spirit of grace', and there remained for them [only] 'a certain fearful expectation of judgment', which indeed came upon that evil generation.
2 Peter 1:5-11 (emphasis on vs. 11). Wouldn't the promise in vs. 11 be the cause and not the result, if we are to believe this is 'the kingdom of God' as you understand it?
In that 2 Peter passage, we are the ones entering into the kingdom of God, and not the kingdom of God entering us.
Probably I'm not following you again, but bear in mind the letter is addressed 'to them that have obtained like precious faith with us'. These were redeemed, born from above children of God that Peter was telling that by diligently following after faith, virtue, knowledge, self-control, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness, and love, the doors of the kingdom would be abundantly opened to them, for, 'He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him'.
What does it mean to be born of the Spirit John 3:5)?
It's apparent from Jn 3:3,5,7,8 that born from above and born of the spirit are synonymous. And I do believe that in Jn 3:5 in particular Christ is making reference to Ezek 36:25-27, and that He knew that Nocodemus would recognize that reference. To be born of the Spirit is to be made spiritually alive, and there was nothing new about the need for that quickening, 'The hour cometh,
and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live.' Take note, that was BOTH a future promise and true at that time;
'the hour cometh, and now is'.
Even if I did agree with your understanding of vs. 3 and 5 in John 3, I don't believe it overturns my understanding of vs. 13. The point still stands, He was the only one. Why?
Concerning Jn 1:13 you wrote:
I believe that He was revealing a mystery, at least it was a mystery to the OT saints, but it had not always been, because He was implimenting something new. John 3:13. Does that make sense?
...and my apologies, but I still don't get your point (it must be important to your position), please explain. I'll increase the scope of the text:
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
We speak that which we know, and bear witness of that which we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I told you earthly things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe if
I tell you heavenly things?
13 And no one hath ascended into heaven, but
he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.
....and I see there in v 13 a verification of ' We speak that which we know' [v 11], and a qualification to tell of the heavenly things [v 12], because Christ had ascended into and descended out of heaven, and was in heaven [v 13] (someone explain that one please). Verse 13 is akin to verse 31, 'He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is of the earth, and of the earth he speaketh: he that cometh from heaven is above all'.
Yes and yes. I'm not sure what you're getting at with the third question. Man could only be saved one way. Things had to actually happen for it to be possible. All the pcs. were in place only after Pentecost.
The third question arises from 1 Cor 15:45:
'So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul.
The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.'
Was it a 'new' thing for Christ to become a life-giving spirit (as in Jn 3:8), or had He always been that life-giving spirit? If you say it's a 'new' thing, when specifically did Christ become that life-giving spirit, and how do you reconcile the 'new' change to, 'Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever' [Heb 13:8]?
By 'saved', I reckon you mean 'go to heaven'. How did men, Jew or Gentile, make it to heaven prior to Pentecost?
