Regeneration and sanctification

[JesusFan]

I have never heard such a skewed view of salvation.
A person can be a child of God, and still not be able to enter heaven? How is that??
Your interpretation of John 1:12,13 is just wishful thinking. Verse 11 says that HIS people (the nation of Israel) rejected Him. But in contrast, those that received Christ by faith (believing on his name) became His children (children of God). Fairly clear isn't it? Continue on: Which were born...of God. How were they born of God? By receiving Him on whom they believed. And that gave them the authority, the right, to become the children of God. Therefore, as Paul says: we are heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Jesus Christ.

The Calvinist view of the new birth/regeneration is odd. I picture it as an unsaved man going out into the middle of a farmer's field and there sitting down, perhaps in a lotus position and meditating in Zen fashion. Maybe he looks like he is trying to reach Nirvana, like most of those Eastern religions do by meditation. But he sits there and waits, waits for this supernatural mystical experience for the Holy Spirit to come upon him and regenerate him just as the Hindu or Buddhist would wait for Nirvana in their hours of meditation. This is the Calvinistic method of regeneration, right? Man is totally passive. He cannot do anything. This is what you mean when salvation must be 100% of God. (It is not what I mean when I say the same thing). But, you say, if salvation is 100% of God, then man must become a zombie, totally passive, and allow God to regenerate him.

An Arminian (which I am not), on the other hand, believes he can lose his salvation. Thus, when it comes to this very important command: "you must be born again," he must reinterpret the command to: "You must be born again and again and again."

Two contrasting interpretations: both very wrong.

The thing is that a Calvinist, al least one of my way of understanding the Bible, being from a 4 point/moderate road...

Not so much that a person is passive, as in they are spiritual dead...

A person would be lost. both spiritual dead to God, and without a relationship with Him...

God chooses to move intot he persons life , and through both an internal/external work, the person places their faith in jesus Chrsit and becomes saved thru faith in grace of God expressed in Cross of Chrsit...

God intervenes on behalf of His elected person, but they still MUST exercise saving faith in the person and work on Christ on their behalf...

Once saved, person has Holy Spirit sealing them unto time of redemption...

Not able to lose the eternal life now found in.thru Christ, but CAN lose rewards God wanted them to store up, as can choose to act/live more in world system than in Gods!

 

[savedbymercy]

Regeneration is used twice in scripture once in Matt 19:28

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

And Titus 3:5

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

In both places its used as a noun ! A Place of being.

Now there is a washing of regeneration, What is that washing ? I believe its the washing provided by Christ blood unto all He died for . Rev 1:5

5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

This is a corporate washing that took place all at one Time for the Church of Which He was the Head of, His body. John said He Loved us [plural] and washed us [plural], this is once and for all completed act.

Its alluded to here Heb 1:

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

The word purged is the greek word katharismos:

a cleansing, purification, a ritual purgation or washing

of the washing of the Jews before and after their meals

a cleansing from the guilt of sins wrought by the expiatory sacrifice of Christ

I believe this is the washing of Regeneration spoken of in Titus 3:5 and it encompasses all the elect seed in Christ when He died for their sins and washed them from the guilt.

 

[revmwc]

NO per the Bible one MUST believe on/in name of the only Son of God, only name given under heaven by which we MUST be saved...

even IF one held that regeneration preceeds faith, and that it CAN be a lenght of time, still has to be in this life a time when personal faith would be exercised, or else you have a "second chance" after death!

One problem with regeneration occuring prior to faith that is the meaning of the greek word.

regeneration from the greek "paligge" re-creation or as it is found only twice in scripture as regeneration

Here is one of the two verses that contains the word regeneration,
Titus 3:
4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;


Verse 5 makes it real clear we are saved be the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. Re-creation as a new creature in Christ and the Holy Spirit indwelling us.

Paul says because of salvation we are new creature (different Greek word that that of regeneration). 2 Corinthians 5: 16Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation

We can only be a new creature if we are in Christ (saved). We are also reconciled with God because of salvation. We are no longer at emnity with Him.

Ephesians 2:


7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Since salvation is by Grace through Faith and since regeneration is re-creation, Faith brings regeneration, then we are also sanctified.

Paul says here 1 Corinthians 1:
1Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

3Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

That we are sanctified (set apart) in Christ Jesus, called to be saints because we have called upon the Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul goes further we are washed, sanctified and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 6:
10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

If the Holy spirit indwells you and as a believer Paul says He does then that is the proof of our:

Regeneration
Justification
Sanctification
Reconciliation
Position
And many more things because of our Faith in calling on the Lord Jesus for salvation.

 

[JesusFan]

One problem with regeneration occuring prior to faith that is the meaning of the greek word.

regeneration from the greek "paligge" re-creation or as it is found only twice in scripture as regeneration

Here is one of the two verses that contains the word regeneration,
Titus 3:
4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;


Verse 5 makes it real clear we are saved be the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. Re-creation as a new creature in Christ and the Holy Spirit indwelling us.

Paul says because of salvation we are new creature (different Greek word that that of regeneration). 2 Corinthians 5: 16Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation

We can only be a new creature if we are in Christ (saved). We are also reconciled with God because of salvation. We are no longer at emnity with Him.

Ephesians 2:


7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Since salvation is by Grace through Faith and since regeneration is re-creation, Faith brings regeneration, then we are also sanctified.

Paul says here 1 Corinthians 1:
1Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

3Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

That we are sanctified (set apart) in Christ Jesus, called to be saints because we have called upon the Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul goes further we are washed, sanctified and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 6:
10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

If the Holy spirit indwells you and as a believer Paul says He does then that is the proof of our:

Regeneration
Justification
Sanctification
Reconciliation
Position
And many more things because of our Faith in calling on the Lord Jesus for salvation.

Agree with you, as I do hold that its faith/regeneration, just so close can be called/seen as being "flip side of the coin"

Hold that God does a partial regeneration to these he has chosen in Christ to receive eternal life, we still MUST exercise personal faith in Jesus to "possess" it!

 

[revmwc]

Agree with you, as I do hold that its faith/regeneration, just so close can be called/seen as being "flip side of the coin"

Hold that God does a partial regeneration to these he has chosen in Christ to receive eternal life, we still MUST exercise personal faith in Jesus to "possess" it!

If you go by regeneration from the greek "paligge" re-creation, where do you see a partial re-creation at?

 

[kyredneck]

I have almost no time to be here (and there are quite few posts I would like to address in other topics.. but just not enough time.

However, I didn't say anything about Old Baptists (and I'm assuming your are referring to Old 'Regular' Baptist). My statement was regarding Primitive Baptists. This is a subject that many PB's on here have made abundantly clear (specifically to me - cause I didn't really get the whole thing) that a person can be eternally saved, having never placed faith in/on Christ Jesus (not only do they not have to know but they can even hate him).

“...they can even hate him...” You've never heard this PB make such a [undoubtedly reactionary] statement. I've never heard such taught either. But I can't help but wonder which Jesus it is that they would hate (or rather which one they should love). Would it be the Catholic Jesus or the Mormon Jesus or the COC Jesus or the IFB Jesus or the Jehovah's Witness Jesus or the Methodist Jesus or Episcopalian Jesus, etc.?

So there is a quick easy way to clear up my misconception.

Please answer "Yes" or "No":
Do you believe there are people who are 'eternally' saved who (past, present, or future) have never, nor will ever place faith into/on Christ Jesus?

A simple "Yes" or "No" will allow my statement to stand or fall and will show my misunderstanding of the PB view. I am not afraid to say I was wrong, but please let me know where I'm wrong.

Please answer "Yes" or "No":
Have you stopped beating your wife?

Again, which Jesus is the 'real deal'? Which gospel is the 'salvific' one that imparts life and immortality?

I'm short on time too; I'll be back, Lord willing.

 

[JesusFan]

If you go by regeneration from the greek "paligge" re-creation, where do you see a partial re-creation at?

Just my phrase for the "specif/effectual calling" that God places upon those whom He has elected to eternal life in Christ.

Basically, God "works" on them to be able to repent believe receive Jesus as their saviour and possess eternal life...

Kind of like when Arminians use "General grace" that God has extended to ALL men from Cross, allowing them to repent and believe on jesus to become saved... Act of human will, can be denied...

I just see that kind of grace extended to his elect, and not possible to resist...

 

[revmwc]

Just my phrase for the "specif/effectual calling" that God places upon those whom He has elected to eternal life in Christ.

Basically, God "works" on them to be able to repent believe receive Jesus as their saviour and possess eternal life...

Kind of like when Arminians use "General grace" that God has extended to ALL men from Cross, allowing them to repent and believe on jesus to become saved... Act of human will, can be denied...

I just see that kind of grace extended to his elect, and not possible to resist...

But regeneration cannot occur even in part to the unbeliever let me repharse to the non-regenerate person. You are either regenerated or you aren't it occurs at the point you receive Christ. It is because God in one of His divine institution gave man volition, to chose to accept or reject Christ. If God is a Just and Fair God then He gave every person volition and allowed them to make a choice to reject or receive Christ, the Holy Spirt brings conviction and the person must make a choice. How many times the Holy Spirit convicts noone really knows, but He brings conviction and until the person dies physically the Holy Spirit can bring conviction and that person continues to excercise the Divine Institution of Volition.

 

[savedbymercy]

Now having been washed by the blood of Christ from the guilt of sin the elect incurred in Adam, again this washing being the washing of regeneration Titus 3:5, Hence when Jesus rose from the dead, the seed in Him, His seed as Per Isa 53:10

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

His seed rose with Him Eph 2:5-6

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

This is alluded to in the OT here Isa 26:

Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Hos 6:2

After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

Now, lets look at the word regeneration, its made up of Two greek words

palin which means:

anew, again

a) renewal or repetition of the action

b) again, anew

2) again, i.e. further, moreover

3) in turn, on the other hand

And the word genesis which means:

source, origin

a) a book of one's lineage, i.e. in which his ancestry or progeny are enumerated

2) used of birth, nativity

3) of that which follows origin, viz. existence, life

This regeneration in Christ that the washed seed has by His blood, forms the foundation of a new Life, a New birth

Its a New Generation, the word is used as a generation Matt 1:1

1The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Now this generation forms the foundation of the New Births of each of the washed seed.

It reads a seed shall serve Him and be counted as a generation Ps 22:

30A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

31They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

This forms the basis for the New Birth, the regeneration through the washing by Christ blood forms the generation that shall be born.

Jesus resurrection is called a being begotten Acts 13:33


33God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

This resurrection of the Head of the washed seed, gives new birth to the seed, and so Peter writes 1 Pet 1:3


3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Thats because they had been raised up together with Him as His seed Eph 2:

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

This fact establishes the basis of each one of that seed which rose together with Christ shall by that resurrection be begotten again, or receive a New Birth.

So basically, the corporate regeneration of all in Christ when He washed them with His blood [The washing of regeneration] forms the ground for each member of that washed seed to receive a New birth from that seed.

 

[DHK]

Please answer "Yes" or "No":
Have you stopped beating your wife?

Again, which Jesus is the 'real deal'? Which gospel is the 'salvific' one that imparts life and immortality?

I'm short on time too; I'll be back, Lord willing.

Did you finally give up your booze yesterday?
Or will you continue to avoid questions?

This is the way you treat Allan, isn't it?

You believe a man is regenerated before salvation, correct?
If so, how long is the interval? or, how is the greatest possible length of time between that interval of regeneration and salvation allowable? A year? A decade? Is it possible for you to have regenerated members in your church but not yet saved? How would you know?

If regeneration and salvation do not take place at the same time then one runs into many problems which become inherently irreconcilable.

 

[JesusFan]

But regeneration cannot occur even in part to the unbeliever let me repharse to the non-regenerate person. You are either regenerated or you aren't it occurs at the point you receive Christ. It is because God in one of His divine institution gave man volition, to chose to accept or reject Christ. If God is a Just and Fair God then He gave every person volition and allowed them to make a choice to reject or receive Christ, the Holy Spirt brings conviction and the person must make a choice. How many times the Holy Spirit convicts noone really knows, but He brings conviction and until the person dies physically the Holy Spirit can bring conviction and that person continues to excercise the Divine Institution of Volition.

except that you are assuming that God "owes" to everyone the "free will" chance to accept/reject jesus and His atoning work on the Cross...

IF Jesus died just for sake of His elect to come, than this would be a moot point, as God JUST purchase and paid directly for His Own. period..

But since I do believe that Jesus was propiation/paid for sins of entire World...

Jesus indeed died on behalf of all, as God was also reconciling His entire creation back to Himself, which will finally fully occure when Jesus returns again...

Died for all, but God does not "owe" any one of us dalvation, as all of us have gone astray, and are sinners "in Adam"

God shows His love by electing to save some from a reprobate race that is really owed hell as payment for their sins, so God is NOT "guilty" of anything if he has not given "all peoples" a chose! In a real sense he already has, as the "natural" man would reject Jesus any ways w/o Him granting means to accept Him!

 

[percho]

Now having been washed by the blood of Christ from the guilt of sin the elect incurred in Adam, again this washing being the washing of regeneration Titus 3:5, Hence when Jesus rose from the dead, the seed in Him, His seed as Per Isa 53:10

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

His seed rose with Him Eph 2:5-6

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

This is alluded to in the OT here Isa 26:

Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Hos 6:2

After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

Now, lets look at the word regeneration, its made up of Two greek words

palin which means:

anew, again

a) renewal or repetition of the action

b) again, anew

2) again, i.e. further, moreover

3) in turn, on the other hand

And the word genesis which means:

source, origin

a) a book of one's lineage, i.e. in which his ancestry or progeny are enumerated

2) used of birth, nativity

3) of that which follows origin, viz. existence, life

This regeneration in Christ that the washed seed has by His blood, forms the foundation of a new Life, a New birth

Its a New Generation, the word is used as a generation Matt 1:1

1The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Now this generation forms the foundation of the New Births of each of the washed seed.

It reads a seed shall serve Him and be counted as a generation Ps 22:

30A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

31They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

This forms the basis for the New Birth, the regeneration through the washing by Christ blood forms the generation that shall be born.

Jesus resurrection is called a being begotten Acts 13:33


33God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

This resurrection of the Head of the washed seed, gives new birth to the seed, and so Peter writes 1 Pet 1:3


3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Thats because they had been raised up together with Him as His seed Eph 2:

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

This fact establishes the basis of each one of that seed which rose together with Christ shall by that resurrection be begotten again, or receive a New Birth.

So basically, the corporate regeneration of all in Christ when He washed them with His blood [The washing of regeneration] forms the ground for each member of that washed seed to receive a New birth from that seed.

Saved, both of you post are well thought out but you missed a step and here is where I believe you missed,

Col. 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence.

This is directly related to firstborn from the dead.

From your post: 1The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Jesus the son of David.
Romans 1:3,4 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

This can only be generation and regeneration.

From your post: 5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Yours in bold is only possible because Jesus Christ is the first begotten of the dead stated first in the same verse.

by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. This is what God the Father and God the Son did to bring about salvation of mankind.

The water baptism of Jesus shows this very truth. John suffered him = shed blood, died and was buried. Came up straightway out of the water = resurrection. the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: = renewal of the Holy Spirit, also see Acts 2:33. And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. = Acts 13:33 Thou art my Son this day have I begotten thee, see also Rom.1 above.

Titus 3:5 is about Christ His death burial resurrection and receiving the Spirit from the Father. The regeneration the same regeneration spoken of in Matthew with the comma in the proper place:That ye which have followed me in the regeneration, when The same thing is spoken of here, Matthew 20:22,23 Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
They say unto him, We are able.
And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with:

They will follow him in the regeneration at their resurrection that is be born again.

In Titus 3:6 we then deal with what most in error call the regeneration that is Christ sheds the Holy Spirit on us. Same thing is said in Acts 2:33 after he receives the promise of the Holy Spirit he sheds it on us. That puts us in Christ that as a whole become the body of Christ, the church, the heavenly Jerusalem, But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all, Mount Zion
ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Back to Zion and my post 50 and 57
Isaiah 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
Where did the Son of Man say he would be for three days and three nights?
Answer: In the heart of the earth
Where was it that David said the soul of Christ would not be left?
Answer: Hades
From whence does the word say the children be birthed from Zion.
Isa. 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? [or] shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
born into the kingdom of God.

Remember: that in all he might have the preeminence.

and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
whom God raised from the dead, [even] by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Thou art my Son this day have I begotten thee. The day he became the rock the church is built upon. From whence did his soul come.
the gates (death) of Hades shall not prevail against it. (the church)

O death where is thy sting
O Hades where id thy victory

When does this saying become true?

Happy Birthday

 

[kyredneck]

DHK:
This is the way you treat Allan, isn't it?

One good loaded question deserves another.

You believe a man is regenerated before salvation, correct?

Yes, that should be abundantly clear by now.

If so, how long is the interval? or, how is the greatest possible length of time between that interval of regeneration and salvation allowable? A year? A decade? Is it possible for you to have regenerated members in your church but not yet saved? How would you know?

I can't answer such questions as these, no man can; but one thing for certain that I refuse to do (which many don't hesitate to do) is to dictate from God's word what God can or cannot do with His own. As already pointed out there are several examples given us in the scriptures of the Spirit's working in individuals at very young ages, even in the womb. Quote:

“When the RSB [Reformation Study Bible (formerly called The Geneva Study Bible)] speaks in the notes of John 3 of "infants being born again," it is speaking of the work of quickening God does in them which inclines their will to Him. In Protestantism, regeneration always precedes faith and if God quickens them, the person will surely come . . .Often, regeneration and our subsequent faith happen apparently simultaneously but logically, regeneration must precede faith. An infant’s faith may not come until years after God has worked by His Holy Spirit to regenerate him or her. Two Biblical examples of infants who were born again are seen in Psalm 22:9-10 and Luke 1:15.” V. A. Voorhis , assistant to R.C. Sproul

If regeneration and salvation do not take place at the same time then one runs into many problems which become inherently irreconcilable.

Quite the contrary, it alleviates many problems and explains much to the discerning eye, especially when understood that this 'birth from above' is how God has always operated, OT & NT, Jew or Gentile ; but more than anything else it gives God all the glory where it rightfully belongs. 'It is of Him that ye are in Christ Jesus'.

It is my desire to continue participation on this thread but duty is requiring my attention in other areas. I'll be back, Lord willing. There's several comments that have been made that I would love to respond to.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Did you finally give up your booze yesterday?

What kind of arrogant question is this.....shameful for a Christian & a moderator.

 

[Allan]

One good loaded question deserves another.

LOL.. You mean when you are terrified to actually answer the question toss out anything you can to deflect the question.

Now Please answer "Yes" or "No":

Do you believe there are people who are 'eternally' saved who (past, present, or future) have never, nor will ever place faith into/on Christ Jesus?

(The True, One and Only, Saving, Lord, God, and Messiah - Jesus)

A simple "Yes" or "No" will allow my statement to stand or fall and will show my misunderstanding of the PB view. I am not afraid to say I was wrong, but please let me know where I'm wrong.

 

[savedbymercy]

perch:

by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. This is what God the Father and God the Son did to bring about salvation of mankind.

Sorry, it was for the elect [Titus 1:1], all Chosen in Christ as His seed before the foundation. All mankind without exception was not in Christ, for He is only the Head of His Church The Body, so thats who He represented in His death Eph 5:23

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

 

[percho]

perch:



Sorry, it was for the elect [Titus 1:1], all Chosen in Christ as His seed before the foundation. All mankind without exception was not in Christ, for He is only the Head of His Church The Body, so thats who He represented in His death Eph 5:23

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

By doing this: KJV But made himself of no reputation, YLT but did empty himself,

And became this: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us. This was not a Theophany. The Word did not become God. The Word became that which he had created a living soul. The book of the generation (used of birth, nativity) of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. The Word became a man and they called his name Jesus.

Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

When did he become the head, that is the corner stone on which the church is built? This is the day that the LORD has made. Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten (born) thee.

From GNT:γεγέννηκά (gegennēka)
3 Occurrences
that God has fulfilled the same to us, their children, in that he raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second psalm, 'You are my Son. Today I have become your father.'

Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice (died, shed his blood) for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Did he sit down on the right hand of God as a man the resurrected/regenerated Son of God or as the Word?

I know this is long but look also at this for it is the same concept of the Word made flesh.
Psalms 110:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. Jesus asked the Pharisees,"Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The Son] of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, (Quotes PS 110:1) If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? By the Word being made flesh, dying raised and declared the Son of God. In this very same Psalm v-4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
See what Hebrews says about this verse. 5:5,6 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another [place], Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

The same day he said Thou art my Son he became priest after the order of Melchisedec this man through the Word made flesh without beginning or end.
v9,10 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec. Was it not the living soul Jesus resurrected from the dead that was made a perfect/complete last Adam unlike the first man Adam? See 1 Cor. 15:45,46Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward (After the resurrection) that which is spiritual. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

Please let me know how you feel about all this.

 

[revmwc]

except that you are assuming that God "owes" to everyone the "free will" chance to accept/reject jesus and His atoning work on the Cross...

IF Jesus died just for sake of His elect to come, than this would be a moot point, as God JUST purchase and paid directly for His Own. period..

But since I do believe that Jesus was propiation/paid for sins of entire World...

Jesus indeed died on behalf of all, as God was also reconciling His entire creation back to Himself, which will finally fully occure when Jesus returns again...

Died for all, but God does not "owe" any one of us dalvation, as all of us have gone astray, and are sinners "in Adam"

God shows His love by electing to save some from a reprobate race that is really owed hell as payment for their sins, so God is NOT "guilty" of anything if he has not given "all peoples" a chose! In a real sense he already has, as the "natural" man would reject Jesus any ways w/o Him granting means to accept Him!

God shows His love to mankind by Instituting certain things for our benefit. The Divine institution of marriage is one such benefit, did God owe Adam a mate? I think not, but God said it is not good for man to be alone so God created the woman and gave her to Adam in marriage, thus instituting marriage.

God told Adam and it was passed to Eve you have a choice, I am commanding you not to eat of the tree in the midst of the garden, do not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. God didn't stop Adam from choosing to eat or not eat instead He placed in Adam the ability to chose to eat or not to eat from that tree. The choice has passed to the entire human race we have volition to choose positively for God to accept Christ as our Saviour or to choose negatively which is to disobey God and therefore reject His Son.

Eve was tempted and Adam became faced with a choice, again God gave him volition, He instituted in Adam and Eve volition the ability to chose to follow His instructions or to disobey His instructions. Adam chose to eat of the fruit that Eve brought him. God has given every human the right to make a concious choice to obey or disobey.

It is what God chose to do for man, until one reaches the point where they are able to make that concious choice then they aren't accountable for those choices. Eve chose to lie (misrepresent) what God said to the serpent and at that moment she had commited a transgression, but she wasn't accountable for that, we are told that Eve was deceived but Adam sinned, upon eating of the fruit they both gained knowledge of sin (good and evil) and both were then accountable for their sin.

But they made the choice God didn't choose for them to eat of the fruit in fact God wanted them to not eat of it. God knew the choice they would make before He ever created them, that is foreknowledge. God foreknew what Eve would do when tempted to eat of the tree. God foreknew the choice Adam would make when Eve brought the fruit to him. God didn't stop them He had given them volition and that volition is a part of each of us it is a institution from God.

God also foreknew man would need salvation and made the plan of salvation before man fell before the foundation of the world. God foreknew the choices we would all make and because He for knew those who would make a positive choice them He did Predestinate to be His chidren.

He foreknew that children would die prior to reaching the point of accountability and He by His grace made a provision for them also. God is not limited as man wants to limit Him. We can't put God in this little box to fit our beliefs as many do. God works out of the box and He is able to do what He chooses and how He chooses, we are limited to our physical body and we are limited in our choices, positive or negative for or against God. There is no middle ground and the choice one makes will decide their place in eternity, but they have that choice. God foreknew that choice.

 

[kyredneck]

LOL.. You mean when you are terrified to actually answer the question toss out anything you can to deflect the question.

Now Please answer "Yes" or "No":

Do you believe there are people who are 'eternally' saved who (past, present, or future) have never, nor will ever place faith into/on Christ Jesus?

(The True, One and Only, Saving, Lord, God, and Messiah - Jesus)

A simple "Yes" or "No" will allow my statement to stand or fall and will show my misunderstanding of the PB view. I am not afraid to say I was wrong, but please let me know where I'm wrong.

It's a loaded, skewed, slanted question Allan; you've already stacked the deck with how PBs teach such awful things as Jesus haters are eternally saved.

If there's anything that terrifies me it would be that I would somehow misrepresent the Old Baptist, and I do mean OLD BAPTIST as in Particular Baptist, view on justification, and thereby give their enemies even more occasion to malign and smear them.

The short is answer is YES, there have been and are many of God's redeemed, born from above children who have never had the opportunity to believe on and enter into the blessed rest of 'the True, One and Only, Saving, Lord, God, and Messiah – Jesus'; and no doubt many of these have lived and died in the midst of 'Christianity'. I see no reason to think that the Gentiles have done any better with this covenant than the Jews did with their's. 'The Church' has muddied and fouled the water and has it's lost sheep just as the Jews (Ezek 34).

But I've no doubt that these lost sheep are justified by doing the law just as all true Jews are; God has written His law in their heart and given them His divine nature from above. Though they have not the law nor are hearers of the law, they are doers of the law, and it's the doers of the law that are justified (add that one to your list Allan; PBs teach justification through works of the law).

...the righteous by his stedfastness liveth. Habakkuk 2:4 YLT

 

[revmwc]

It's a loaded, skewed, slanted question Allan; you've already stacked the deck with how PBs teach such awful things as Jesus haters are eternally saved.

If there's anything that terrifies me it would be that I would somehow misrepresent the Old Baptist, and I do mean OLD BAPTIST as in Particular Baptist, view on justification, and thereby give their enemies even more occasion to malign and smear them.

The short is answer is YES, there have been and are many of God's redeemed, born from above children who have never had the opportunity to believe on and enter into the blessed rest of 'the True, One and Only, Saving, Lord, God, and Messiah – Jesus'; and no doubt many of these have lived and died in the midst of 'Christianity'. I see no reason to think that the Gentiles have done any better with this covenant than the Jews did with their's. 'The Church' has muddied and fouled the water and has it's lost sheep just as the Jews (Ezek 34).

But I've no doubt that these lost sheep are justified by doing the law just as all true Jews are; God has written His law in their heart and given them His divine nature from above. Though they have not the law nor are hearers of the law, they are doers of the law, and it's the doers of the law that are justified.

...the righteous by his stedfastness liveth. Habakkuk 2:4 YLT

At first glance I thought it wasn't loaded but after reading it again I see how you see that. It says "saved" not regenerated or partially regenerated, is that how you see it loaded?