No one here is saying that at all. Ah forget it. Time for a break from this.
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Resurrection
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No one here is saying that at all. Ah forget it. Time for a break from this.
I agree with you JesusFan that this was new for the Word and was necessary for the purpose of God. Please bear with me and let me ask a few things or my post would have to be to long to bear with. Thanks. I want to show what I believe to be new.
God said let us make man in our image and he created Adam male and female created them and called their name Adam.
From Hebrews 2:What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Would this be Adam and all since? Do not know that it is relative but I think thou visitest would have been the incarnation.
Back to Adam next:Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; Adam and we are in his image at this present time. thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
My main question is about what is said next.
Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Remember I am not a fan of the concept of the fall of Adam for the Lamb was slain prior to his creation and death had already been decreed. Is that statement above said about the first man Adam or was it a statement that would apply to those made in the image of the last Adam the resurrected the Word made flesh the Christ the Son of God conceived by the Holy Spirit in the virgin Mary?
Is this the new man of which the world to come see Verse 5 Heb. 2 and to which will apply the statement above which began with Jesus being the firstborn from the dead and we being the church of which he is head of inherit in the kingdom of God?
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. Read ch 1 for all things.
Is the new creation not the resurrected Christ in whose image we will be made?
BTW God here is not changing we are the ones being changed in case Tom comes back. I do believe God will give us a body of his choice not necessarily the one we are presently in. Tom did have a valid point concerning the marred body of Jesus after all it had only been three days.
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thomas15
Well-Known Member
Tom,
If physical creation is so bad, then why did/does Jehovah God put so much effort into physical creation? Does not the creation of our God extend beyond anything we can possibly imagine? And is there not a difference between spirit and spiritual. My Bible teaches that we will be changed into glorified spiritual bodies.
How exactly does a kind of wispy, floating on a cloud spirit, or non-physical body in heaven bow down before the Lamb to worship him? How do they sing His praises?
If physical creation is so bad, then why did/does Jehovah God put so much effort into physical creation? Does not the creation of our God extend beyond anything we can possibly imagine? And is there not a difference between spirit and spiritual. My Bible teaches that we will be changed into glorified spiritual bodies.
How exactly does a kind of wispy, floating on a cloud spirit, or non-physical body in heaven bow down before the Lamb to worship him? How do they sing His praises?
Who said anything about physical creation being bad? God created this world and said it was good. It is just not God's nature. God is spirit.
Aside from the terminology, mine does too.
How do the angels sing God's praises? Every knee shall bow before Him - even those who never had physical "knees". Agreed?
"Wispy" and "floating on a cloud spirit" are terms that show your antipathy toward the spiritual nature more than reflect what Scripture actually teaches on that nature.
depends on how you understand "spiritual/physical" body..
My take is that God will raise up SAME body that died, went into the ground, changing it into likeness of the body of jesus Christ, same one he had while appearing to the Apostles...
that one ate.talked/walked could be touched etc
is that body you see us all having?
We will be able to eat/talk/walk if we so chose, and walk through walls also if we so choose?
I believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God and I have been sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
I believe I will be born again when I inherit the kingdom of God which can not be inherited until the redemption of the purchased possession in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump.
At that time I will be made perfect unable to sin or as the song goes, "be saved to sin no more."
Why do you ask?
I was born again, and made a child of the family of God 41 years ago.
At that time I became not only a child of God, but I was guaranteed that I would see the kingdom of God. One cannot wait. What if you die tomorrow? Will you be born again, if you are not born again today? How do you know? The new birth is not a process, but a one time event, like justification. Like physical birth, when the infant enters into the world, spiritual birth is when one enters into the family of God. It is not a process. It happens only once in a person's life and can never be repeated. It does not happen over a period of time like sanctification does. One cannot wait to be born again:
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (John 3:3)
--As Jesus said: You MUST be born again.
It is not something a person can wait on.
The Incarnation--God became flesh.
At the Ascension--God became spirit.
So God has his "tinkerbell" and waves his "pixiedust" whenever he wants to change his form. But at the same time He has his rules, and thus he cannot have a body right now. That is against the rules and would violate his immutability.
The truth is that when Christ arose he arose with a physical resurrected body which was seen by over 500 witnesses. When that body ascended into heaven it was witnessed by the twelve apostles who were told: "Why do you stare? He shall so come again as you have seen him go." In his second coming, the apostles were told that Christ would come visibly as he went visibly. That contradicts your "70 A.D. invisible return" theory.
Furthermore, sometime after that event (the ascension), Stephen was stoned. As he lay there dying he looked up into heaven. What did he see? He saw Jesus standing on the right hand of the Father. There was Christ standing, symbolically welcoming Stephen home. Normally Christ sits on the right hand of the Father. He, throughout eternity, will now have his glorified body. And yes, they will always bear the marks of his crucifixion, the same ones that he showed to Thomas; the same ones that he himself testified about:
Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. (John 20:27)
--You don't have to believe me, but to disbelieve Christ's own testimony about the marks in his own body is not good. Christ had a physical body that bore physical scars, and that ate physical food and did many other physical acts.
John says:
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:2)
--We shall be like him. Our bodies will be similar to his. They also will be physical resurrected bodies. Paul gives greater detail in 1Cor.15 which you have already read.
thomas15
Well-Known Member
I'm reading your post #67, actually trying to untangle the mess which you offer here and basically I'm just throwing up my hands in frustration. But what I see is an individual who appears not solid with respect to the trinity of the Godhead, the diety of Christ and the finished work and associated redemption offered by grace thru faith in Jesus.
That is why I ask the question.
thomas15
Well-Known Member
Tom,
Your attempts at making me the subject in a defense of your unbiblical beliefs are, shall I say, not working.
Jesus said a lot of things. He said that which is born of the flesh is flesh.
I was born in the flesh December 1942. I remember I wanted to be born in 1935 but I had to wait because well I just didn't have a lot to say about my birth.
That which is born of the Spirit is Spirit.
What does is mean? Seems this question came up once before.
O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
And as we have borne the image of the earthy,(That which is born of the flesh is flesh) we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.(That which is born of the Spirit is Spirit) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Will Job be born again? Why is the Son not presently called firstborn of many? Why is it after we are conformed to his image that he is firstborn of many
What has he been through that is called firstborn of, that we have not been through but that we will go through that would then cause him to be the firstborn of many?
If you have a question please ask. I believe we are baptized into the church the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit which also begets us as a child of God and makes us an heir and joint heir with Christ. We can call the Father, Father. I believe we will be born again in the spiritual image of the resurrected Christ into the kingdom of God at his appearing and kingdom which will be at our resurrection. We will then be born again and as it says in 1 John 3:9 we will not be able to sin.
It means: "Have you been born of the Holy Spirit"? If not, you cannot see the kingdom of God. It is through the Holy Spirit that we gain access into heaven. His ministry is to convict the world of sin, of righteousness and of judgment.
After putting one's trust in Christ his ministry is to indwell the believer; to take up permanent residence within him. The new birth, becoming a child of God, takes place when the Holy Spirit comes and takes up residence in that individual giving him spiritual life. You must be born again, Jesus said.
Job may be the oldest book in the Bible. Job lived at about the same time that Abraham did which is before the time of Moses. To base your theology of the new birth on a poetical book, and one that is in the OT, and of such antiquity, is not good hermeutics.
Yes, this is true. It is true for those who have already been born again.
Remember, Jesus was telling Nicodemus how to be born again. By the time of Jesus death, Nicodemus was born again, and assisting Joseph of Arimethea in the burial of Christ.
Job is an OT saint. The concept of the new birth can hardly apply to the days of Abraham.
Christ is called the firstborn of the dead. That is what refers to the resurrection. He was the first one to rise from the dead.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Romans 8:29)
The word "firstborn" means "preeminent". David, in Psalms 87 is referred to as the firstborn (preeminent) even though he was the youngest. It doesn't always mean the one that is literally the first one that is born. If it did it would mean that Christ would be a created being as the J.W.'s maintain.
Rom.8:29 teaches that Christ is the first one of us to rise from the dead, and from among us, he is the most important.
1 Corinthians 15:49-55 is still yet future, For the trump hasn't sounded the church (i.e. the bride) hasn't been taken to heaven just yet. Nicodemus believed in Jesus as Messiah.
John 19:
38And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.
39And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
40Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.
Joseph of Arimathaea was a disciple or believer in secret Nicodemus was with him when they came to bury Jeses. So do you think that a non-believer would risk power, position and prestige to help bury this blasphemer as Jesus was labled if he weren't a believer in secret like Joseph? If you say yes they would risk it then Nicodemus may not have believed if you no they wouldn't have risk it then Nicodemus was a believer a disciple of Christ.
As for Abraham, Isaac and Jacob the other O.T. saints we see this in
Matthew 24: 29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The elect of the O.T. will be resurrected after the tribulation according to Christ.
We see also,
Revelation 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
Revelation 20: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
In Matthew 24, Revelation 19 we see the ressurection of the O.T. saints who come and praise the Lamb at His marriage to His Bride (the church) "the voice of a great multitude". Verse the marriage of the Lamb has come. Then verse 9 we see the angel say "Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb" this is the O.T. saints at the marriage of the Lamb to the Bride the Church.
In then 20 we see the ressurection of the Tribulation Saints, verse 4 is the key that shows us this. Verse 5 says that the unbeliever will not be raised until after the 1000 year reign of Christ.
So that the ressurection of the Church is seen in 1 Corinthians 15:49-55, 1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Christ promise to those who remain faithful and patient in waiting for His return, He will keep them from the hour of temptation or tribulation. The church will be kept from the tribulation.
Christ also says here be careful that no man take thy crown,
1 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing
If you continue to watch for His appearing you will receive the crown of righteousness.
Revelation 4: 1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
Notice John heard the voice of trumpet and the call come up hither, notice 1 Thessalonians 4:16 says " For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God" the church comes up hither.
So the ressurection of the Church will precede that of the O.T. saint and the tribulation saint and we will not see the tribulation accordint to the promise in Revelation 3:10.
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John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
HankD
I was answering your question. You don't like the answer apparently.
thomas15
Well-Known Member
In your mind I'm sure you feel that your response is an adequate answer. Personally, as far as I'm concerned, you have no real answer only a lot of stuff that you throw out to change the subject or re-phrase the question to try to gain some sort of advantage in the debate. Break down your responses and attempt to deal with them one at a time and you find yourself all over the place, chasing your tail.
But really, how do you expect anyone with even a small degree of historical curiosity or any serious Bible student to believe that Jesus returned in AD70 or that Babylon in Rev 17 is code for Jerusalem? In a sane world, no one would give you a second's notice and yet you think, based on your perceived attitude that the dispies are the crazy ones.
Ah, the Tinkerbell Diversion. An attempt to trivialize my position by some ridiculous association.
Acts 1:11 relates to how Christ was to return (adverb), not His nature. This is actually a defense for the Preterist view, but I have been over this so many times.
"What did he see?" That is a good question. Let us go to the Bible and find out. Previous verse and then your verse that you cherry-picked:
"But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and said, 'Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!'"
He had a vision of God. Just like Isaiah seeing the Lord high and lifted up, Ezekiel and John seeing a mutually similar vision of the Lord. John also saw a sword coming out of His mouth.
Is that sword still coming out of His mouth? Is He still riding a white horse? I am asking these rhetorical questions to show that visions demonstrate spiritual realities by visual symbols. "Visual", at least to the one having the vision. The Jews in Acts 7 did not see the vision, but were incensed by Stephen's account of the vision.
The bottom line is that we do not treat visions as cut-and-dried theological statements of fact. Like for the parables, we need to study out the central purpose of the vision, not glean the details and make unintended connections.
Once again, not denying any of this.
This is tiresome. I think at this point you are just being willfully asinine. If you had half a memory, and the willingness to use it charitably (like you would expect from moderators) you would remember that I didn't deny Christ's testimony. You are just trying, transparently, with a JW brush.
ditto
Cherry-picking again. Like I wrote to someone else (who also didn't respond to this point) read the context. In this case, the next 5 or so verses. I also quoted Luke 6:40:
"The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be like his master."
In both cases, and in about 6 or 7 parallel passages, being like Christ is shown to be our imitation of those attributes of His that are communicable. It has nothing to do with similar natures. Note: I am not denying a commonality of a spiritual body, just that the passages you cited is not saying that.
And this is another passage that I have gone into in greater detail. In fact it is one of the strongest proofs of the Preterist position, not the futurist's.
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