1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

2nd fallacy of "non-cals"

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, May 25, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Top Posters
Page 1 of 6
  1. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    23
    #2. For the most part in this universe the will of God is being completely thwarted.

    According to most "non-cals" God did not will suffering, sin, death, calamity, hell, etc...

    Yet every single day about 70,000 people die, trillions upon trillions of sins are committed, the amount of suffering is immeasurable, calamity and chaos is every where, and the fires of hell are unquenched.

    So God certainly did not get his way in this universe. He built it but he never intended for things to go the way they did. God never wanted this to happen. But it is happening on a large scale.

    God wills that every single person goes to heaven but almost every single person does not. SORRY GOD! You won't get your way there!

    God wills that no sin ever take place. TRILLIONS upon TRILLIONS of sins are committed in this world every day. SORRY GOD! You didn't get what you wanted there out of your universe!


    Here is the crux of it. God built this universe with one intention and he will not get it.

    His building of the universe is a colossal failure.

    This is the "non-cal" position.

    God does not will sin but here it is!
    God does not will any soul to go to hell but there they are- by the billions!
    etc, etc, etc...

    According to the non-cal God simply is not getting his way.

    Maybe one day he will come in and fix most of this, but he is just not in charge of what's going on for these thousands of years.
    I don't know who they think IS in charge- Us perhaps, maybe the devil- but somebody is bringing his will to pass for the time being and it is most certainly not God!



    Of course the Bible spurns such nonsense!

    Ex 4:11 Then the Lord said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?

    Eccl 7:13-14 Consider the work of God: who can make straight what He has made crooked? In the day of prosperity be joyful, and in the day of adversity consider: God has made the one as well as the other, so that man may not find out anything that will be after him.

    Jer 32:27 “Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh. Is anything too hard for me?

    Lam 3:37-38 Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and bad come?

    Amos 3:6 Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid? Does disaster come to a city, unless the Lord has done it?

    Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?”

    Exod 4:11 Then the Lord said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?

    Deut 32:39 See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

    2 Chr 20:6 and said, “O Lord, God of our fathers, are you not God in heaven? You rule over all the kingdoms of the nations. In your hand are power and might, so that none is able to withstand You.

    Ps 103:19 The Lord has established His throne in the heavens, and His kingdom rules over all.

    Ps 115:3 Our God is in the heavens; He does all that He pleases.

    Ps 135:6 Whatever the Lord pleases, He does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps.

    Isa 45:5-7 I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides Me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides Me; I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things.

    Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all My purpose,’

    Dan 4:35 All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and He does according to His will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay His hand or say to Him, “What have you done?”

    Luke 1:37 For nothing will be impossible with God.

    Acts 4:27-28 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your plan had predestined to take place.

    Acts 17:26 And He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place

    Rev 17:17 For God has put it into their hearts to carry out His purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.



    Once you have established that the "all" and "whole world" passages almost NEVER mean every single person and then establish that God is bringing his will to pass perfectly in every single event at all times and in all places forever- then you must become a Calvinist- AKA a bible believer.
     
    #1 Luke2427, May 25, 2011
  2. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    33,898
    Likes Received:
    1,660
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Whats that saying that God has a vote for you, The Devil has a vote & he votes against you and then you cast the final vote
     
    #2 Earth Wind and Fire, May 25, 2011
  3. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    23
    That's the fallacy of "non-cals".
     
    #3 Luke2427, May 25, 2011
  4. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    9,838
    Likes Received:
    702
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Interesting contrast:

    "I do abhor from my heart that continual whining of some men about their own little church as the "remnant"—the "few that are to be saved." They are always dwelling upon strait gates and narrow ways, and upon what they conceive to be a truth, that but few shall enter heaven. Why, my friends, I believe there will be more in heaven than in hell." —Charles Spurgeon
     
    #4 Jerome, May 25, 2011
  5. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    4,230
    Likes Received:
    628
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I would say the truth is somewhere in between. However, that quote by Spurgeon was one of the ones that finally opened my eyes about him. Though I am convinced that Luke is overstating things, at least he has Scripture on his side. Spurgeon, though he alludes to the verse, ignores the application of the verse.
     
    #5 asterisktom, May 25, 2011
  6. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    23
    Yea. I actually believe Spurgeon may be right.

    I believe God has elected all babies. So most humans go to heaven if I am right.

    What I am referring to is the idea that most that develop a free will go to hell.

    So what makes God so loving in this "non-cal" business in giving men that which damns the VAST majority of those who develop it to a fiery eternal hell?
     
    #6 Luke2427, May 25, 2011
  7. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    9,838
    Likes Received:
    702
    Faith:
    Baptist
    :confused:

    Does He revoke the election once they develop a free will?
     
    #7 Jerome, May 25, 2011
  8. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    23
    He elects babies who he knows he is going to take when they are babies.

    The fact is that this is a mystery. We can only work at understanding it. It is not clearly revealed one way or another.

    If God does elect all children who he intends to take from this world as children then we can know that the majority of the human race is going to be in heaven.

    Cue Spurgeon quote taken out of context...
     
    #8 Luke2427, May 25, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 25, 2011
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    There is no "free will"....just self will
     
    #9 Iconoclast, May 25, 2011
  10. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    1
    I challenge you to find one scholar of the "non-Calvinistic" persuasion (that Baptists would agree with) that teaches God doesn't will, through His permissive decree, suffering, sin, death, calamity, hell, etc.

    Do I need to quote Edwards and some Arminian divines for you again?

    Good luck attacking your straw men Luke.
     
    #10 Skandelon, May 25, 2011
  11. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    1
    In case you or other readers are having trouble finding a non-Calvinistic scholar. Here is a quote from the esteemed Adam Clarke correctly representing the will and wisdom of God according to a non-Calvinistic perspective:

    "The manifold wisdom of God;" that multifarious and greatly diversified wisdom of God; laying great and infinite plans, and accomplishing them by endless means, through the whole lapse of ages; making every occurrence subservient to the purposes of his infinite mercy and goodness. God's gracious design to save a lost world by Jesus Christ could not be defeated by any cunning, skill, or malice of men or devils. Whatever hindrances are thrown in the way his wisdom and power can remove; and his infinite wisdom can never want ways or means to effect its gracious designs" - ADAM CLARKE
     
    #11 Skandelon, May 25, 2011
  12. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    1
    Let's also add a quote from Arminius himself for good measure:

    "I declare that it {God's Providence} preserves, regulates, governs and directs all things and that nothing in the world happens fortuitously or by chance. Beside this, I place in subjection to Divine Providence both the free-will and even the actions of a rational creature, so that nothing can be done without the will of God, not even any of those things which are done in opposition to it; only we must observe a distinction between good actions and evil ones, by saying, that "God both wills and performs good acts," but that "He only freely permits those which are evil." Still farther than this, I very readily grant, that even all actions whatever, concerning evil, that can possibly be devised or invented, may be attributed to Divine Providence Employing solely one caution, "not to conclude from this concession that God is the cause of sin." -Jacobus Arminius

    Now, what was it that "most" of us believe again, Luke?
     
    #12 Skandelon, May 25, 2011
  13. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    23
    I'm not debating you since you have done to me what you know you have done but I will say this:

    The real challenge will be to FIND these Arminian scholars.

    I guess I could call upon Dake and Scofield if that's what you consider to be a scholar.
     
    #13 Luke2427, May 26, 2011
  14. Tater77

    Tater77 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2009
    Messages:
    461
    Likes Received:
    0
    The conclusion of Calvinism is that the entire human race becomes this:

    [​IMG]
     
    #14 Tater77, May 26, 2011
  15. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    23
    To be a pawn of God ought to be more than enough for any Christian.

    To say, "Oh God, I am but a piece you move to accomplish your holy purposes- but OH to be a piece which God places his hand upon!" ought to be enough for anyone.
     
    #15 Luke2427, May 26, 2011
  16. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    18,441
    Likes Received:
    259
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What if you are a pawn in the hand of God as one who is of the non-elect? And a Calvinist, as your posts indicate, can never say with 100% assurance that you are of the elect. Is that not a fearful position to be in? :eek:
     
    #16 Crabtownboy, May 26, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 26, 2011
  17. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2009
    Messages:
    4,466
    Likes Received:
    3
    I don't think God is interested in making people into pawns. He gives us free will to choose as to whether or not to serve Him.
     
    #17 Robert Snow, May 26, 2011
  18. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    18,441
    Likes Received:
    259
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I agree with you. I do not see how a Calvinist can but see themselves and everyone else as pawns in the hands of God. After all according to their, the Calvinist on this BB, everything, absolutely everything, ever action, inaction, breath, motion, flick of the wrist was predestined. We have no choice, according to them. We are puppets on God's string. I reject that idea. The Calvinist postings here have convinced me that they are in error in a number of places.
     
    #18 Crabtownboy, May 26, 2011
  19. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    23
    No Calvinist doubts that he is one of God's elect.

    Calvinism ASSURES one that he is saved.

    It is your doctrine or lack thereof that leads to doubt.

    Calvinists believe Romans 8.
     
    #19 Luke2427, May 26, 2011
  20. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    18,441
    Likes Received:
    259
    Faith:
    Baptist
    And here I believed it was Christ and Christ crucified and risen and through faith in him that salvation is possible.

    I am rather sure that Calvin would be horrified if someone had made your comment to him.

    I guess you are implying that I am not saved as you have convinced me that much of Calvinism is incorrect. Is this right?

    Good. I would hope so. Of course you might interpret it incorrectly, but I am not sure if you do or do not as you did not expound your understanding of this chapter. Regardless from your posts the only logical conclusion of your position is that the individual has absolutely no way of really knowing if he/she is saved or not. That was decided before the creation of anything.
     
    #20 Crabtownboy, May 26, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 26, 2011
Page 1 of 6
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...