2nd fallacy of "non-cals"

Hi Jesusfan,
There are Mod ones like me who would hold to God has 2 Wills, a divine direct/causing and a permissive.allowing

In manners of salavtion, a general Will God loves all jesus died for all
Specific Will Those God chooses and elects out will become saved by jesus act on the Cross, but they still need to palce faith in taht to be saved!

The problem is the "Mod ones" actuallty believe everything is predestined, so they say God allows what He predestined. This simply rewrites the meaning of "allow" to mean cause.

Now you say "all Jesus died for" and not Jesus died for all mankind. Why not speak clearly. God could not desire all men to be saved, if Jesus only died for the elect.

Next, you have the order out of order. Jesus died for all mankind. So He because the propitiation for the whole world. He provides justification of life to all men. But, in order to receive that reconcilation provided by His propitiation, in order to receive that justification provided by His sacrifice, God must credit our faith in Jesus as righteousness and place us spiritually in Christ. You have it, chosen individually before creation, then called, then transferred from the realm of darkness into His kingdom. The Bible has it, called by the gospel, our response, God credits (or not) our response and individually elects us by putting us spiritually in Christ. We are the "called, chosen and faithful", not the chosen, called and faithful of the Calvinist rewrite.

 

Again, you are "beating a dead horse"

Your "beef" so to speak is NOT against calvinism per say, but against the Hyper Cal crowd who do see God determining everything, as they are supra in their beliefs!

 

How does one "read calvinism"

what other option is there besides permitting or decreeing? I see you inserted permission under God's sovereignty, but what does that mean? I believe that to be true, but how do you define it?

 

Huh.....I just told you that not all Calvinists believe this, so why did you ignore my prior post? Selective amnesia perhaps?!?:BangHead:

 

The basis of our salvation/redemption/regeneration etc is NOT our faith in Christ, but in the atoning work of the Cross itself.. faith allows one to access that Grace, but is NOT the anchor of our salavtion...

When In Christ, by the Cross, eternally secured, "Even IF we deny him, he cannot deny Himself"...

 

I wouldnt go so far as to call a brother or sister a Hypercalvinist, but I believe they have a distorted perception of Scripture that can turn fatalistic if continued to that extreme. These guys just want to paint us all with the same brush. Then the accuser becomes void of rational thinking. Pitty!

 

Bravo :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

quote: How does one "read calvinism"
------------------------------------------

Try reading Systematic Theology by A.H. Strong. An excellent presentation of calvinism by a baptist.

Cheers,

Jim

 

1 John 4:14-15

14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God.

That should sum it up!:thumbsup:

 

Thanks!

Would say try to read works on Calivinism with an "open mind!"

 

Have you read "Institutes"?

 

yes, was years ago though...
Should dig it back up and reread it again...

read the English translation was a 2 volume set, translator of it escapes me now !

 

Are you a Pastor?

 

No, but have been an Elder/Deacon/Sunday school teacher for adults/children...

Interesting story on my salvation...

received jesus while in College, God brought 2 SBC Christians to be a witness to me...

Once saved, joined an Assemblies of God Church,a s they were active on my campus...

stayed there awhile, but never "bought: into "Classical pentacostal Theology"

many saints in there, and the fact that pastor was Seminary trained, so that helped him to stay close to biblical theology, not pentacostal theology ...

left there, and stayed awhile in an Evangelical Free Church, close to baptist in theology and 'feel"

past 7 years been member in a local baptist Church within the Great lakes baptist association, part of the North American baptist Churches...

 

Jim, you seem to a quite reasonable and cordial gentlemen (there are others too), but there have also been many discussions in the past and some committed reformed position have most definitely argued for God (desiring, engineering, authoring....pick your verb) sin into creation. I am not seeking to derail, just simply pointing out that this position, though not held by all of the reformed persuasion, has indeed been argued and defended here.

 

The deal is all Calvinists, 100% are exhaustive determinists. Not one Calvinist posting on this board has had the integrity to say God does not predestine everything. Not one.

So they write stuff to attack my qualifications, i.e you need to read Calvinism, but that is an obvious logical fallacy. Yet they use it, because anyone can attack another poster's qualifications without a shred of evidence. Note they always speak in generalities, because I provide quotes from published sources when they challenge anything specific. I present Calvinism in complete accuracy. They run away from the published doctrines of grace saying "not all Calvinists believe in this or that." Twaddle!!

I am still waiting for a Calvinist to say God does not predestine everything. When and if one does, I will say they do not believe in classical Calvinism as expressed in the Westminster Confession which says God ordains whatsoever comes to pass.

 

Van, while I may agree often with you in principle, I don't think we should call into question the "integrity" of each one on this board who espouses reformed theology.

 

So your implying that God also ordains Evil & Sin?

 

I guess that depends on which side you were predestined to huh?