Every knee shall bow and tongue confess

You seem to have no clue as to what we believe but regurgitate falsehoods and lies even after you have been shone and proved you are incorrect. It has already been explained to you that we do not hold that world always means every single person.

However this seems to be more of an education aspect with you here as it is apparent you must know very little or nothing about Greek language. Therefore I will do you a favor and quote from a very well respected Greek Scholar, who is even Reoformed/Calvinist. A.T. Robertson and I will cite from an easy to work of his - "Robertson Word Pictures" so you can double check it:

You can also find in used in various translations of scripture.

 

Yea... who does???

How is such a thing possible with you people. You have no identifiable theology.

This makes you conveniently slippery.

I've said before- trying to nail down what you believe is like nailing jello to a wall.

So, I won't argue on this point.

I'll just say- it's your fault that nobody knows what you people believe.

Pick a theology or systematize one of your own and this won't be such a problem in the future.

I should very much like to see where this proof took place.

BTW, I know that you people say you don't believe that "world" means every single person every single time. But what you people do seem to do is make it mean "every single person" just when it suits you.

Ahhh.... there it is again. You've popped that word out there three times in a thirty minute span. See my question to you concerning this problem of yours in the other thread.

I am aware of what the greek term is there for world but it seems that you people don't care about that.

You people try to argue that "kosmos" in John 3:16 must mean "every single person". And since it does not- I didn't figure you cared much what Greek words mean.

Your whole position seems to rest on your ability to demand that terms mean one thing when it suits you and another when it does not.

Since "kosmos" means to you people when it suits you "every single person" I figured the god of this age" should also mean "every single person in this age".

But who knows how you people will use a term in any given place?

 

IF this one-time event happened during the course of normal human affairs
IF this one-time event were the mere will of humans
And IF this one-time event were something other than God FINALLY making clear in a way that ALL will know, you could have a point.

But, of course, none of the "IFs" above are true. What God does before He makes final His utter and absolute sovereignty as King is His will and His choice (and by default, not ours). Once He sets all things (finally) into His divine order, there will be no room for free expression, nor will there have to be. As I have argued before, once in the presence of God, all people WILL be believers -- alas, not in a salvific way, that happening only during the times allotted by God -- which seems to cause great harm to your doctrine of human belief.

 

I disagree with Robertson and probably everyone else. World in 2C4:4 is age and every reference he made to the world was kosmos. If this is Satan blinding people, it is the only place in scripture that states he blinds people.
Whereas many times in scripture it is said God blinds and I believe that to be the case here. Through google of blinded by the devil I see also Adam Clarke sees this the same way.

As a matter of fact Verse 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost (perishing): covers all, dying thou shall surly die, And you who were dead in trespasses and sins;
It is through the gospel by election that the scales have fallen.

And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

I believe that Paul did not begin to be a believer but he was made a believer.
He was given the faith of not in Christ. Scripture: Interesting it would come from the same chapter, did not realize it until was going to copy. 2 Cor. 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

Read from whence that was written and tell me that as in Acts 2 where Peter said David was speaking as a prophet of Christ and not himself wasn't also from whence that was written speaking of Christ and not himself.

Please respond esp. to the last part. Thanks in advance.

O yes, Psalms 116.

 

The issue then, is whether one's "saying" something equals salvific faith. I would suggest that it is not, but you may disagree. I've always thought that "salvation" was a supernatural act that only God could do, so what we say really plays a very small part in the process, and what even that small part is is up for debate.

 

Skan,
I think what you're attempting here is to draw a line from what is clearly an eschatological confession due to recognition of the truth clearly revealed at that moment - namely that the Christ people have rejected is indeed Christus Victor - to a place where Reformed soteriology is defeated. I think that's a stretch here since those who are more Calvinistic and those who are less Calvinistic agree that this is not a salvific confession.

 

Well said! I agree.

To that, I would add (what I've added SO many times before), why the huge effort to defeat Calvinism? In so doing, brothers and sisters are becoming alienated from fellowship with each other. Discuss the points, sure, but to use every rhetorical trick in the book to try to trip up a person who holds a Reformed point of view just to win an argument seems beneath the efforts of a man of God.

 

Yea I point out to you the silliness of this argument in another thread.

It works like this- "You don't agree with John Calvin about one verse of SCripture- HA!!!!!! Se there!!!! You are a hypercalvinist!!!"

There is very little I disagree with Calvin about- but he is not infallible.

Many Calvinists have noted that "kosmos" has nothing to do with every single person on earth in John 3:16.

Are ALL OF THEM hypers?

Because that is what you are saying I am. You are saying I "out Calvin, Calvin" and your ridiculous justification for that is that I don't agree with him on ONE VERSE OF SCRIPTURE!"

Can you not see how absurd an argument that is????

 

Glfredrick wrote:

I think many of our Calvinistic brothers and sisters need to give account for themselves here, too. Far too many on both "sides" believe it's their calling and purpose to uplift their view while demolishing anything and anyone in disagreement. To uphold Biblical teaching is a Biblical mandate. To destroy another person or simply engage in argumentative rancor is unChrist-like and foreign to Scripture. We may well win an argument (I've always wondered who decides the wins and losses) but what we lose may be far more critical.
Skandelon wrote:

I don't think it's particularly helpful to say that one side or the other is more vitrioloic. There are good and bad examples of all sides of all issues. Check your PM.

No, and I overstated it a bit. Let me rephrase it: to say this verse in any way contributes to a supposed silver bullet against Calvinism or somehow is a lynchpin argument for the other "side" is a stretch in my mind since both "sides" seem to agree.

Following this line of reasoning, you would seem to argue that there will be no eschatological confessions that are susbtantively different from those that precede the coming of the Lord. So, if every knee confesses, then those confessions must by default be salvific. That's where I (and numerous others on here of all theological stripe) disagree. See above.

I think the line from Princess Bride says it best: "I do not think this means what you think it means." :tongue3:

Thanks, friend.

 

It does. I still maintain that, because it's too late to be salvific, this doesn't speak one whit to Calvinism or Arminianism, pro or con, and this seems to be borne out on the consensus by both sides.

 

THE OP:

1. Every believer has already confessed Christ as Lord.
2. The rest of the world (all unbelievers) will confess Christ as Lord (whether they want to or not), at the Great White Throne Judgment, before that last sentence when they are thrown into the Lake of Fire. They will indeed recognize the ONE who is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and they will not be able to deny him any longer. It will be a confession, but at this point it is too late. It cannot save.

 

I have drawn a distinction. Apparently that is a waste of time when debating you.

Yes, it WAS about one verse- because that is ALL YOU BROUGHT UP.

NOBODY agrees with ANYBODY about everything.

It is a meaningless argument you employed here.

I'd be utterly THRILLED to label them as Arminians. Utterly THRILLED. What a blessing it would be to be able to label them Arminians- which is what they really are.

But they won't accept it.

So give me a name for their theology- and I will start calling them that.

But so long as their theology remains nameless- that is what I am going to call it- nameless.

 

I think this has already been explained to you, so forgive me if I appear to be repeating what someone else has already posted, but I'll try to put some extra flesh on it.

Let's try an analogy. When the Bible says, 'No one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit' (1Cor 12:3), I should have thought it was obvious that it does not mean that the words are literally impossible to say unless the Holy Spirit permits. It means, in context, that no one can say and mean that Jesus is Lord. If you put a gun to the head of the average atheist and tell him to say Jesus is Lord or you'll blow his brains out, the chances are that he will say the words to save his life. So 1Cor 12:3 is not to be taken absolutely literally.

Are you with me so far?

When the Lord Jesus returns in glory, 'Every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him, and all the nations of the earth will mourn because of Him' (Rev 1:7). They will not see our Lord as He is depicted in Isaiah 53:2-3, but as He will be in Rev 19:11ff. There will be no faith required to know that Jesus is Lord; it will be breathtakingly obvious. It will be the worst nightmare come true for those who have not believed, which is why they will 'mourn.'

They will not require the Holy Spirit to say, and mean, Jesus is Lord, because they will have the evidence of their own eyes.

'Every eye shall now behold Him
Robed in dreadful majesty;
Those who set at nought and sold Him,
Pierced and nailed Him to the tree,
Deeply wailing,
Shall the true Messiah see.

Every island, sea and mountain,
Heaven and earth, shall flee away;
All who hate Him must, confounded,
Hear the trump proclaim the day;
Come to judgement!
Come to judgement! Come away!'
John Cennick & Charles Wesley

I'm sorry if this is pathetically obvious, but you appear from your posts not to understand it.

Steve

 

Why is this so important to you? Nowhere in the Bible are we required to label our theology. In fact Paul rebuked certain ones for doing just that. The only label that should matter is the one of Christian, a follower of Christ. I don't care what you call me. I belong to Jesus and I uphold His theology.