Paul’s Response to the Thessalonians Tells us the Nature & Timing of the 2nd Coming

Rapture occurs "after" the GT

Hank,
As you wrote, we agree the Day of Wrath occurs "after" the 42-month Great Tribulation...after the last believer who must be killed has been killed!
Rev.6:9-11,17.

But the Rapture occurs on the Last Day because ALL the "dead in Christ will FIRST be caught up to meet the Lord in the air"!! I Thess.4:13,16.

"Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up to meet the dead in Christ and be gathered together to the Lord Himself in the air...
at the last trump"...at the 7th Trumpet's "appointed time to judge and reward the saints, both small and great, and to destroy those who are
destroying the earth". On that Day the Lord avenges the blood of the martyrs!!! I Thess.4:17; I Cor.15:52; Rev.11:18.

The first fall of Babylon, described in Rev.18:10, occurs at midpoint of the
70th "7" of Daniel...to begin the 42-month Endtime of Great Tribulation!

"God will remember her sins" a second time by history's greatest quake, not only as a City, but with earthquakes and their aftershocks that
destroy the total global system. The Ten Kings "destroy the City by fire" to begin the Great Tribulation; but God destroys the City and its Global
System on the Day He comes with all the Saints. "Double Destruction" !! Rev.18:8.

The destruction by Ten Kings launches the Endtime of 42 months or 1260 days. They will "give their power and authority to the Beast" after they
infiltrate and confiscate the System and destroy the City which rules over
the kings of earth during the first part of Daniel's 70 "7". Rev.17:16-18. But
God Himself will destroy the City and System on the Day of His Wrath!!!
Rev.16:18-21 (Rev.17:2 and Rev.18:3 reveal it is one and the same City).
Mel
www.lastday.net

 

Pre-Mil, Post-Trib Rapture

Hi Rev,
This present Dispensation ends on the Day Christ comes in glory with all the
Saints to redeem the Remnant of Israel and launch the Millennium under the reign of Christ over the Kingdom of David according to Jer.33!

Tribulation Saints, including the 144,000 "Firstfruit unto God and the Lamb", are included in the Bride of the Lamb and all of them take part in the
Court of Seal 7 (and Dan.7:9-27) before Christ descends to "gather the
elect from the earth and sends the angels to complete their gathering to
meet Him in the air"!! Mark 13:24-27; Matt.24:29-31; I Thess.4:13-17.

All of Matt.24:29-51 must be fulfilled before the Millennium begins. This
Dispensation will end on a Saturday, Tishri 15, and the Millennial Dispensation will begin on a Sunday...Tishri 16!!!
Mel
www.lastday.net

 

Sarcasm Misunderstood by Logos1

My Response to Logos1:
Here no comment should be expected since the remark on his "understanding of Scripture" was a satirical and ironic expression of sarcasm and mockery.
Mel
www.lastday.net

 

Wow how you read the Bible and not see the N.T. verses that clearly shows what that generation is let me post them for you yet again,
Matthew 24: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mark 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Luke 21: 31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

The generation that will not pass away is the one who sees the fulfillment of ALL THESE THINGS, what things

Luke 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Well let see what of this occured in 70 A.D. the destruction of Jerusalem and it was compasssed about.
This was happening: they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.


This was not seen:

Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: rome had conquered the whole known world by them and had power over almost every nation. So this wasn't happening according to History

great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven, no record in scripture nor history of this event.

there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
No record in scripture nor in history of this.

Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. The powers of Heaven definitely weren't shaken now the people of Isarael heart's might have failed them in fear but not everywhere in 70 A.D. for only Jerusalem was being taken down.

then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Agin no record in scripture even in the book of Jude that people SAW Christ coming in the clouds, no church History records it. History says nothing about it.

And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
They would have seen Christ coming as the Redeeemer.


Some of this partially but not throughout the whole world.

15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.


Then we see verse 31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
Then Christ says 32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

The generation that sees the FULFILLMENT of ALL these things and that generation could be ours, but it is clear from scripture, early church History and History, that Christ was not seen coming in the Clouds and the other events listed were not ALL fulfilled in 70 A.D. therefore one must conclude ALL these things are yet in the FUTURE not the past.

Seems very clear we have many verses in the N.T. that show the opposite of your statement "Not a single verse in the NT that says Christ comes back in a different generation, thousands of years in the future, or that it won’t be soon."
The thousands of years in the future well let's see what God's timetable is:
2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance

Notice verse 8 God sees a day as a Thousand years and a Thousand years as a day, so the church has existed for approximately 1 3/4 days that is a very short time. The generation that will not pass away is the Generation that sees the Fulfillment of ALL the things Chrsit laid out in this passage not partial.

 

Thanks Mel,

I still don't have full closure in my own mind concerning the church saints before the 3 1/2 year Great Tribulation and where exactly they are "geographically" in the 70th week (7 year schematic) of Daniel.

I have asked you before about this but it must have slipped through the cracks.

From Matthew 13 we have:

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.​

My presumption is that the wheat are NT saints, the tares - not.

The barn is an earthly structure not a heavenly structure unless perhaps it is metaphorical.

The wheat seemingly is gathered into the Lord's barn before the burning of the tares which seems to indicate that the wheat is removed from and protected from this conflagration before the harvest.

This is why the timing of these events are not completely settled in my own mind because the tares appear to be are bound in the field and burned before the wheat are gathered into His barn.

So, is this gathering of the wheat in matthew 13 synonomous with the "snatching away-harpazo" of 1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Can you advise me from scripture?

Thanks
HankD

 

Matthew 13 and Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Go together for the Tribulation and it's end, Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. This is the fulffillment of the seperation of the wheat and tares and the Matthew 24 passage.

I did a thread on Revelation 4 and the 24 elders and received no response from 36 viewres, byt if you look at Revelation 4 you see the Church in Heaven with rewards and the events follow after the church is snatched away, that is how I see read it for yourself and decide.

Here is the link to the thread:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=72566

Look at it study Revelation 4 with the Thessalonians verse and The Corithians verses and see what you conclude. You may see it entirely different than I do but that is how I see it.

Revelation 19 is the fulfillment of Matthew 13 and 24 passages and in that I son't think you would fiind the church, especially from where you see the 3 1/2 years as something happening.

 

Thanks Rev,

Yes, I'll look it over and do some thinking.

I am generally but not a dyed-in-the-wool dispensationalist with a few things I am still looking into.

HankD

 

I am not asking you to see it a specific way but to let the Spirit guide you as you prayerful look things over. There are sooooooooo many views out there not everyone is right, we all believe we are but the Spirit will guide you to see the Truth in it all.

Hank if you don't want to ask something in an open forum you can send me a private message. Sometimes folks will hit you with all types of responses that you might not want so feel free to send me any questions you have.

 

Yes rev, I know very well that folk do that and not only that but heap insults upon someone with whom they disagree.
Someone perhaps who may very well be a true seeker of truth.

Sometimes the risk is worth it.

I have answered the post (of sorts) concerning the 24 elders.

As a postscipt I hope no one out there is ever quenched in spirit to cease pouring over and studying the scriptures
in order to be approved of God by the insensitivity and boorishness of the few.

Thanks
HankD

 

Dear Special Student Logos1,

The very least you can do is tell us what seminary you perform your advanced studies at. And you never know, we just might have a mutual friend or two.

And to put your mind at ease, I received my undergrad at Salem College WV class of 1981.

 

God's Longsuffering is with everyone who trust Christ today, God is patient for them to COME to REPENTENCE during this time of the Church. Why has He delayed HIS coming to allow HIS will to be accomplished. So One Day to the Lord is as a Thousand years and a Thousand years as one day, think about that, interesting how the scoffing you do about it's been alomst 2000 years and yet in that verse in Peter we see exactly 2000 years. Why is time like that because God is Longsuffereing toward us not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentence. Why has He delayed because HE is LONGSUFFERING to those who will be saved.

Back to the generation let's do it yet again. To spare space Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

This generation will not pass away until all these things have come to pass or have been fulfilled. The generation of 70 A.D. did not see them fulfilled, not literally, and there are still many portions to be fulfilled today. When ye "followers of Christ" shall see these things come to pass then know the Kingdom is near. Your belief limits God to the people he was talking to but to do that would mean that any verse you take would just be for those spoken too. Yet the "ye" was not just for those Christ spoke it to but it was taken by those who read it when the epistle was written to mean possibly them, it was also believed by those in the periods that followed and it applies to us today, the generation that sees the fulfillment will not pass away.


But let's look at the disciples generation, John saw it fulfilled in his vision on Patmos, Paul evidently saw it when he was called into the third heaven, Peter saw it too as he tells us that this earth will be consumed with fervent heat and a New Heaven and Earth are coming. I am sure others saw it in visions, so if the way you believe it as the generatio that was alive when Jesus spoke saw it they saw it in a vision and passed away so that generation of Christ time saw it fulfilled in visions.
Doesn't change the fact that scripture says He is coming to set up a literal physical Kingdom on the earth and Jesus will reign on Davids throne. Doesn't change the fact that Paul said we who are alive and remain will not prevent the dead from rising first and we meet Him in the air. Doesn't change scripture that says we will return with Him at the end of the tribulation when He comes as conquring King and set's up His Kingdom at His physical second coming.

Doesn't change the fact that as true Christians we will be taken with Christ and see all fulfilled IN GOD'S TIME, not man's time.

 

Yes the Holy Spirit was very quick through Paul to correct those who were wrong, He quickly through Paul corrected those who said Christ had come "metaphorically" or "spiritually" in:
2 Thessaloninas 1: 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

They had been troubled by those who believed Christ would come in the "spiritual" or "metaphorical" verse 7 Paul told them to rest with Paul and the rest that this wouldn't happen.
Notice He says Jesus would be "revealed" so let's look at the Greek for revealed the word is "Apokalupsis":

Strong's Number: 602 a)poka/luyiv
Original Word Word Origin
a)poka/luyiv from (601)
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Apokalupsis ap-ok-al'-oop-sis
Parts of Speech TDNT
Noun Feminine 3:563,405
Definition
1 laying bear, making naked
2 a disclosure of truth, instruction
a. concerning things before unknown
b. used of events by which things or states or persons hitherto withdrawn from view are made visible to all
3 manifestation, appearance

Now we can see that definition 1 would not fit here at all, so we must look at the next, 2 fits it is a disclosure of truth, but it is speaking of Christ being revealed, sub point a. this doesn't fit the Thessalonians knew that He would be revealed, so sub point b. this fits the dispie veiw that Christ is currently out of view but will be made visible with His angels as verse 7 tells us. Of course the word used that way doesn't fit the Preterist view that he came "metaphorically" or "Spiritually" unseen. So then number 3 a manisfestation or appearance,

It says "revealed from heaven" so what does the greek from shows us, it is "Apo":
Strong's Number: 575 a)po/
Original Word Word Origin
a)po/ a primary particle
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Apo apo'
Parts of Speech TDNT
preposition None
Definition
1 of separation
a. of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing, ...
b. of separation of a part from the whole
1.where of a whole some part is taken
c. of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed
d. of a state of separation, that is of distance
1. physical, of distance of place
2. temporal, of distance of time
2 of origin
a. of the place whence anything is, comes, befalls, is taken
b. of origin of a cause
So again let's see what fits, He was not seen but will be seen "from (Apo)", number 1. seperation either a. from a place or b. apart from the whole, well 1.a. would seem to fit Christ will be appear seperated from Heaven fits the dispie view but not the Preterist view.
1. b. seperation of a part from the whole, and 1. under that where of a whole some part was taken, well that would be Christ in the whole heaven sperated from it, that again fits the dispie view of a return in the air and a literal second coming too, virtually this whole word means seperated from heaven.

Verse 7 can be seen with these two Greek words as saying, Christ and the Angels who were "hitherto withdrawn from view are made visible to all" and that they will be seperated out of Heaven. Very clear He will be seen upon His return the Holy Spirit very quickly dispelled that error of a "metaphorical" or "spiritual" only return.

 

God's view of a long or short time is different than ours:

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.​

Accordingly then the Lord has been gone for two days.

Will you accept this scripture as written?

Acts 1

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.​

Or​

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

HankD​