Paul’s Response to the Thessalonians Tells us the Nature & Timing of the 2nd Coming

[lastday]

Rapture occurs "after" the GT

I am in agreement with you Mel.
Its just that I am not as skilled as you are in putting all the pieces together in a coherent way.

My quote was poorly worded on my part and it is a little confusing at the minute detail level.

I know that there will be a one day "day of wrath" and that it happens after Rev 6:9:

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain (past tense) for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:​

Then comes the day of wrath in verse 6:17​

Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?​

By the way, are these these two verses (Rev 6:17 and Rev 18:10) pointing to that same "day of wrath"?​

Revelation 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.​

If so, where does the Book of Revelation reflex backwards in time and repeat the account of events?

HankD​

Hank,
As you wrote, we agree the Day of Wrath occurs "after" the 42-month Great Tribulation...after the last believer who must be killed has been killed!
Rev.6:9-11,17.

But the Rapture occurs on the Last Day because ALL the "dead in Christ will FIRST be caught up to meet the Lord in the air"!! I Thess.4:13,16.

"Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up to meet the dead in Christ and be gathered together to the Lord Himself in the air...
at the last trump"...at the 7th Trumpet's "appointed time to judge and reward the saints, both small and great, and to destroy those who are
destroying the earth". On that Day the Lord avenges the blood of the martyrs!!! I Thess.4:17; I Cor.15:52; Rev.11:18.

The first fall of Babylon, described in Rev.18:10, occurs at midpoint of the
70th "7" of Daniel...to begin the 42-month Endtime of Great Tribulation!

"God will remember her sins" a second time by history's greatest quake, not only as a City, but with earthquakes and their aftershocks that
destroy the total global system. The Ten Kings "destroy the City by fire" to begin the Great Tribulation; but God destroys the City and its Global
System on the Day He comes with all the Saints. "Double Destruction" !! Rev.18:8.

The destruction by Ten Kings launches the Endtime of 42 months or 1260 days. They will "give their power and authority to the Beast" after they
infiltrate and confiscate the System and destroy the City which rules over
the kings of earth during the first part of Daniel's 70 "7". Rev.17:16-18. But
God Himself will destroy the City and System on the Day of His Wrath!!!
Rev.16:18-21 (Rev.17:2 and Rev.18:3 reveal it is one and the same City).
Mel
www.lastday.net

 

[lastday]

Pre-Mil, Post-Trib Rapture

Not exactly clear where you get the Pre-Mil dispensational view. The Church is gathered out Pre-Tribulation those who have died in the church age and those who are living at the time of His coming in the air to meet his bride the church.

We see a type of that in Isaac and Rebecca in that Issac meets her in the field and they turn and go into his mother the tent toghether, Issac is type of Christ and Rebecca a type of the church and they dwell together.

Upon the church being snatched away and the Tribulation begining. The saints in Revlation 6:9 -11 are Tribulation Saints and they must await their fellow Tribulation brethren being killed before they are avenged. Once the 7 year period is complete and Christ returns they will be avenged, and rule with Him in the millenial kingdom.

Hi Rev,
This present Dispensation ends on the Day Christ comes in glory with all the
Saints to redeem the Remnant of Israel and launch the Millennium under the reign of Christ over the Kingdom of David according to Jer.33!

Tribulation Saints, including the 144,000 "Firstfruit unto God and the Lamb", are included in the Bride of the Lamb and all of them take part in the
Court of Seal 7 (and Dan.7:9-27) before Christ descends to "gather the
elect from the earth and sends the angels to complete their gathering to
meet Him in the air"!! Mark 13:24-27; Matt.24:29-31; I Thess.4:13-17.

All of Matt.24:29-51 must be fulfilled before the Millennium begins. This
Dispensation will end on a Saturday, Tishri 15, and the Millennial Dispensation will begin on a Sunday...Tishri 16!!!
Mel
www.lastday.net

 

[Logos1]

I see now why you can't see scripture without seeing in your own view you state "Preterists own all the time statements of the new testament" that tells everyone where you stand. You think you own scripture but Paul said, 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Sounds a little bit to me like God owns scripture and 1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The Holy Spirit reveals His word to us by comparing spiritual with spiritaul, that would be the Holy Spirit guiding us from verse to verse to pull together scripture upon scripture to show how it is meant.
God owns time, when it was needed God rolled back time for Israel to win the battle, when Hezekiah was promised that he would live and have time added to his life God rolled back the sun.

Paul told the Thessalonicans in his first epistle chapter 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

He said you know perfectly the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. Notice what else he said, "3...when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

Seems as if the world will say they have a time of Peace and Safety, that definitely is not 70 A.D. then sudden destruction shall come, they (the unbelievers of the world) will not escape, but we (believers of this age) will not be overtaken by the time of sudden destruction, sounds like we just might be snatched out like Paul had told them in chapter 4 verses 16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

Again and again God reveals that He owns time not man and not the preterist as you say. God tells us He is Longsuffering, He tells us one day to Him as a Thousand years and a Thousand years as one day, seems clear God's concept of time and man's are not the same. When God says quickly or shortly it is based on HIS concept of TIME not man's and not the preterist, God owns time no mankind and certaily not the preterist.

2 Peter 3: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

If anyone doesn’t know where I stand I have to apologize for not making it clear as a bell—but let me repeat. I started life as a full premil-dispy and spent most of my days there. It was a confusing place where bible prophecy has so many contradictions, dead ends, and rumors of future events that couldn’t be found in the bible that I never felt comfortable with any of it. One day I started reading about Preterism and although the first few days it seemed hard to imagine, but soon the straight forward logic of it was too much to refuse. All the bible made sense and all prophecy fell into place when read from that perspective. When I realized the apostles were full preterists that sold me. I became a full preterist and have been comfortable with it ever since. Praise God!

Well rev I see in your post that you didn’t find any scripture that backs up your futurist position. Not a single verse in the NT that says Christ comes back in a different generation, thousands of years in the future, or that it won’t be soon. A normal fellow might reconsider the possibility of barking up the wrong tree, but...well I don't have the heart to point out the obvious.

I think if you keep looking for ways to twist the soon coming statements into meaning something different than they mean you will get wonderful mental exercise out of it and it will help keep you young for the eternal wait you are in for. So I see some great benefits for the scripture twisting logic you strive so hard for. Keep up the good work.

Besides wouldn’t these boards be a boring place if we all agreed on everything.

I’ll leave you with a few thoughts for your mental exercises tonight.

If God does not speak to man in terms that man can understand then what purpose would it serve God to give man inspired scriptures since man wouldn’t know what to believe and what to ignore. If the reason you gave held any water then we can’t be sure of saved by faith, the resurrection, the existence of heaven or anything else. In your universe words, concepts, and prophecy are all devoid of coherent or consistent meaning.

You have been hoisted on your own petard rev—how can you possibly believe that a thousand years to us is like a day to the Lord—by your own logic these methods for counting time are devoid of reference and any literal meaning that can be counted.

 

[Logos1]

When someone sets this pretty a table for me it seems like a sin to waste it

Yes and no doubt since you have such a fantastic grip on truth and reality compared to most of today's youth I'm predicting that you're going to pursue some post secondary school education/seminary training in the reformed tradition? Have any kind of summer employment lined up or will you limit your vacation to posting on the internet?

Greetings Sir Thomas of Nottingham,

Actually when the Dean of the seminary offered me a summer internship posting online he said that I was their special student and if I worked hard it could lead to a full-time position managing bulletin boards.

He also said I shouldn’t say anything about the pay, benefits package, and afternoons off so how did you find out about it—did someone tell you or was it divine inspiration?

Any way I know you are in our friends of Preterism Seniors Club so be sure to pick up your online discount coupons, keep up with your reading assignments, and I bet you will score big on the end of chapter quiz and get another gold star.

P.S. if the print is not large enough for you just call our help line and they will be glad to help you adjust your browser settings. I have to go now it’s time for my ice cream break.

 

[Logos1]

So good to have you back and to think I predicted it just makes it all the sweeter

Mel you are my main man even when I don't know what you are saying.

My mind just doesn’t function on the existential planes of reality that you think and write in. I can’t say for sure whether I agree with you or disagree with you most of the time. I think we agree on the merits of full Preterism, but sometimes you can blaze a trail that is shall we say unique. All I can say is preach on brother. Can I get an Amen!

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

Why thank you Mel!

 

[lastday]

Sarcasm Misunderstood by Logos1

Mel you are my main man even when I don't know what you are saying.

My mind just doesn’t function on the existential planes of reality that you think and write in. I can’t say for sure whether I agree with you or disagree with you most of the time. I think we agree on the merits of full Preterism, but sometimes you can blaze a trail that is shall we say unique. All I can say is preach on brother. Can I get an Amen!

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

Why thank you Mel!

My Response to Logos1:
Here no comment should be expected since the remark on his "understanding of Scripture" was a satirical and ironic expression of sarcasm and mockery.
Mel
www.lastday.net

 

[revmwc]

Well rev I see in your post that you didn’t find any scripture that backs up your futurist position. Not a single verse in the NT that says Christ comes back in a different generation, thousands of years in the future, or that it won’t be soon. A normal fellow might reconsider the possibility of barking up the wrong tree, but...well I don't have the heart to point out the obvious.

I think if you keep looking for ways to twist the soon coming statements into meaning something different than they mean you will get wonderful mental exercise out of it and it will help keep you young for the eternal wait you are in for. So I see some great benefits for the scripture twisting logic you strive so hard for. Keep up the good work.

Besides wouldn’t these boards be a boring place if we all agreed on everything.

I’ll leave you with a few thoughts for your mental exercises tonight.

If God does not speak to man in terms that man can understand then what purpose would it serve God to give man inspired scriptures since man wouldn’t know what to believe and what to ignore. If the reason you gave held any water then we can’t be sure of saved by faith, the resurrection, the existence of heaven or anything else. In your universe words, concepts, and prophecy are all devoid of coherent or consistent meaning.

You have been hoisted on your own petard rev—how can you possibly believe that a thousand years to us is like a day to the Lord—by your own logic these methods for counting time are devoid of reference and any literal meaning that can be counted.

Wow how you read the Bible and not see the N.T. verses that clearly shows what that generation is let me post them for you yet again,
Matthew 24: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mark 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Luke 21: 31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

The generation that will not pass away is the one who sees the fulfillment of ALL THESE THINGS, what things

Luke 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Well let see what of this occured in 70 A.D. the destruction of Jerusalem and it was compasssed about.
This was happening: they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.


This was not seen:

Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: rome had conquered the whole known world by them and had power over almost every nation. So this wasn't happening according to History

great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven, no record in scripture nor history of this event.

there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
No record in scripture nor in history of this.

Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. The powers of Heaven definitely weren't shaken now the people of Isarael heart's might have failed them in fear but not everywhere in 70 A.D. for only Jerusalem was being taken down.

then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Agin no record in scripture even in the book of Jude that people SAW Christ coming in the clouds, no church History records it. History says nothing about it.

And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
They would have seen Christ coming as the Redeeemer.


Some of this partially but not throughout the whole world.

15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.


Then we see verse 31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
Then Christ says 32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

The generation that sees the FULFILLMENT of ALL these things and that generation could be ours, but it is clear from scripture, early church History and History, that Christ was not seen coming in the Clouds and the other events listed were not ALL fulfilled in 70 A.D. therefore one must conclude ALL these things are yet in the FUTURE not the past.

Seems very clear we have many verses in the N.T. that show the opposite of your statement "Not a single verse in the NT that says Christ comes back in a different generation, thousands of years in the future, or that it won’t be soon."
The thousands of years in the future well let's see what God's timetable is:
2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance

Notice verse 8 God sees a day as a Thousand years and a Thousand years as a day, so the church has existed for approximately 1 3/4 days that is a very short time. The generation that will not pass away is the Generation that sees the Fulfillment of ALL the things Chrsit laid out in this passage not partial.

 

[HankD]

Hank,
As you wrote, we agree the Day of Wrath occurs "after" the 42-month Great Tribulation...after the last believer who must be killed has been killed!
Rev.6:9-11,17.

But the Rapture occurs on the Last Day because ALL the "dead in Christ will FIRST be caught up to meet the Lord in the air"!! I Thess.4:13,16.

"Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up to meet the dead in Christ and be gathered together to the Lord Himself in the air...
at the last trump"...at the 7th Trumpet's "appointed time to judge and reward the saints, both small and great, and to destroy those who are
destroying the earth". On that Day the Lord avenges the blood of the martyrs!!! I Thess.4:17; I Cor.15:52; Rev.11:18.

The first fall of Babylon, described in Rev.18:10, occurs at midpoint of the
70th "7" of Daniel...to begin the 42-month Endtime of Great Tribulation!

"God will remember her sins" a second time by history's greatest quake, not only as a City, but with earthquakes and their aftershocks that
destroy the total global system. The Ten Kings "destroy the City by fire" to begin the Great Tribulation; but God destroys the City and its Global
System on the Day He comes with all the Saints. "Double Destruction" !! Rev.18:8.

The destruction by Ten Kings launches the Endtime of 42 months or 1260 days. They will "give their power and authority to the Beast" after they
infiltrate and confiscate the System and destroy the City which rules over
the kings of earth during the first part of Daniel's 70 "7". Rev.17:16-18. But
God Himself will destroy the City and System on the Day of His Wrath!!!
Rev.16:18-21 (Rev.17:2 and Rev.18:3 reveal it is one and the same City).
Mel
www.lastday.net

Thanks Mel,

I still don't have full closure in my own mind concerning the church saints before the 3 1/2 year Great Tribulation and where exactly they are "geographically" in the 70th week (7 year schematic) of Daniel.

I have asked you before about this but it must have slipped through the cracks.

From Matthew 13 we have:

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.​

My presumption is that the wheat are NT saints, the tares - not.

The barn is an earthly structure not a heavenly structure unless perhaps it is metaphorical.

The wheat seemingly is gathered into the Lord's barn before the burning of the tares which seems to indicate that the wheat is removed from and protected from this conflagration before the harvest.

This is why the timing of these events are not completely settled in my own mind because the tares appear to be are bound in the field and burned before the wheat are gathered into His barn.

So, is this gathering of the wheat in matthew 13 synonomous with the "snatching away-harpazo" of 1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Can you advise me from scripture?

Thanks
HankD

 

[revmwc]

Thanks Mel,

I still don't have full closure in my own mind concerning the church saints before the 3 1/2 year Great Tribulation and where exactly they are "geographically" in the 70th week (7 year schematic) of Daniel.

I have asked you before about this but it must have slipped through the cracks.

From Matthew 13 we have:

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.​

My presumption is that the wheat are NT saints, the tares - not.

The barn is an earthly structure not a heavenly structure unless perhaps it is metaphorical.

The wheat seemingly is gathered into the Lord's barn before the burning of the tares which seems to indicate that the wheat is removed from and protected from this conflagration before the harvest.

This is why the timing of these events are not completely settled in my own mind because the tares appear to be are bound in the field and burned before the wheat are gathered into His barn.

So, is this gathering of the wheat in matthew 13 synonomous with the "snatching away-harpazo" of 1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Can you advise me from scripture?

Thanks
HankD

Matthew 13 and Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Go together for the Tribulation and it's end, Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. This is the fulffillment of the seperation of the wheat and tares and the Matthew 24 passage.

I did a thread on Revelation 4 and the 24 elders and received no response from 36 viewres, byt if you look at Revelation 4 you see the Church in Heaven with rewards and the events follow after the church is snatched away, that is how I see read it for yourself and decide.

Here is the link to the thread:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=72566

Look at it study Revelation 4 with the Thessalonians verse and The Corithians verses and see what you conclude. You may see it entirely different than I do but that is how I see it.

Revelation 19 is the fulfillment of Matthew 13 and 24 passages and in that I son't think you would fiind the church, especially from where you see the 3 1/2 years as something happening.

 

[HankD]

Matthew 13 and Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Go together for the Tribulation and it's end, Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. This is the fulffillment of the seperation of the wheat and tares and the Matthew 24 passage.

I did a thread on Revelation 4 and the 24 elders and received no response from 36 viewres, byt if you look at Revelation 4 you see the Church in Heaven with rewards and the events follow after the church is snatched away, that is how I see read it for yourself and decide.

Here is the link to the thread:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=72566

Look at it study Revelation 4 with the Thessalonians verse and The Corithians verses and see what you conclude. You may see it entirely different than I do but that is how I see it.

Revelation 19 is the fulfillment of Matthew 13 and 24 passages and in that I son't think you would fiind the church, especially from where you see the 3 1/2 years as something happening.

Thanks Rev,

Yes, I'll look it over and do some thinking.

I am generally but not a dyed-in-the-wool dispensationalist with a few things I am still looking into.

HankD

 

[revmwc]

Thanks Rev,

Yes, I'll look it over and do some thinking.

I am generally but not a dyed-in-the-wool dispensationalist with a few things I am still looking into.

HankD

I am not asking you to see it a specific way but to let the Spirit guide you as you prayerful look things over. There are sooooooooo many views out there not everyone is right, we all believe we are but the Spirit will guide you to see the Truth in it all.

Hank if you don't want to ask something in an open forum you can send me a private message. Sometimes folks will hit you with all types of responses that you might not want so feel free to send me any questions you have.

 

[HankD]

I am not asking you to see it a specific way but to let the Spirit guide you as you prayerful look things over. There are sooooooooo many views out there not everyone is right, we all believe we are but the Spirit will guide you to see the Truth in it all.

Hank if you don't want to ask something in an open forum you can send me a private message. Sometimes folks will hit you with all types of responses that you might not want so feel free to send me any questions you have.

Yes rev, I know very well that folk do that and not only that but heap insults upon someone with whom they disagree.
Someone perhaps who may very well be a true seeker of truth.

Sometimes the risk is worth it.

I have answered the post (of sorts) concerning the 24 elders.

As a postscipt I hope no one out there is ever quenched in spirit to cease pouring over and studying the scriptures
in order to be approved of God by the insensitivity and boorishness of the few.

Thanks
HankD

 

[thomas15]

....Actually when the Dean of the seminary offered me a summer internship posting online he said that I was their special student and if I worked hard it could lead to a full-time position managing bulletin boards.....

Dear Special Student Logos1,

The very least you can do is tell us what seminary you perform your advanced studies at. And you never know, we just might have a mutual friend or two.

And to put your mind at ease, I received my undergrad at Salem College WV class of 1981.

 

[Logos1]

Dear Special Student Logos1,

The very least you can do is tell us what seminary you perform your advanced studies at. And you never know, we just might have a mutual friend or two.

And to put your mind at ease, I received my undergrad at Salem College WV class of 1981.

Salem College 1981

Now isn’t that just special

 

[Logos1]

Wow how you read the Bible and not see the N.T. verses that clearly shows what that generation is let me post them for you yet again,
Matthew 24: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mark 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Luke 21: 31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

The generation that will not pass away is the one who sees the fulfillment of ALL THESE THINGS, what things

Luke 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Well let see what of this occured in 70 A.D. the destruction of Jerusalem and it was compasssed about.
This was happening: they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.


This was not seen:

Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: rome had conquered the whole known world by them and had power over almost every nation. So this wasn't happening according to History

great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven, no record in scripture nor history of this event.

there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
No record in scripture nor in history of this.

Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. The powers of Heaven definitely weren't shaken now the people of Isarael heart's might have failed them in fear but not everywhere in 70 A.D. for only Jerusalem was being taken down.

then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Agin no record in scripture even in the book of Jude that people SAW Christ coming in the clouds, no church History records it. History says nothing about it.

And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
They would have seen Christ coming as the Redeeemer.


Some of this partially but not throughout the whole world.

15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.


Then we see verse 31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
Then Christ says 32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

The generation that sees the FULFILLMENT of ALL these things and that generation could be ours, but it is clear from scripture, early church History and History, that Christ was not seen coming in the Clouds and the other events listed were not ALL fulfilled in 70 A.D. therefore one must conclude ALL these things are yet in the FUTURE not the past.

Seems very clear we have many verses in the N.T. that show the opposite of your statement "Not a single verse in the NT that says Christ comes back in a different generation, thousands of years in the future, or that it won’t be soon."
The thousands of years in the future well let's see what God's timetable is:
2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance

Notice verse 8 God sees a day as a Thousand years and a Thousand years as a day, so the church has existed for approximately 1 3/4 days that is a very short time. The generation that will not pass away is the Generation that sees the Fulfillment of ALL the things Chrsit laid out in this passage not partial.

You prove my point rev—look at all the rigmarole you go through to twist a simple term like “this generation” away from the generation he is talking to and try to warp it into the future.

Really, many verses—ok then find just one verse which says he is coming back in the distant future, future generation, thousands of years into the future—should be easy since you have so many to choose from. Instead of claiming you have so many why don’t you just post one of them.

The church has existed for 1.75 days—since you claimed God’s concept of time and man’s are not the same—you don’t have any basis to try to convert a thousand years into a day. A conversion ratio is useless when the underlying concepts are not the same. And, why doesn’t the term longsuffering only reach to 70AD—based on your logic no reason it shouldn’t since the two concepts of time are different. To reach for this just shows your desperation in not having any verses that support the futurist view. You have painted yourself into a logic corner where you don’t have toe let alone a leg to stand on.

 

[Logos1]

What no Date?

My Response to Logos1:
Here no comment should be expected since the remark on his "understanding of Scripture" was a satirical and ironic expression of sarcasm and mockery.
Mel
www.lastday.net

Mel--I thought it was standard policy to give us at least one date per day to hang our hat on--I feel cheated out of my date. You got to cowboy up and get out the calculator even on the tough days and keep up your reputation.

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

Why thank you Mel!

 

[revmwc]

You prove my point rev—look at all the rigmarole you go through to twist a simple term like “this generation” away from the generation he is talking to and try to warp it into the future.

Really, many verses—ok then find just one verse which says he is coming back in the distant future, future generation, thousands of years into the future—should be easy since you have so many to choose from. Instead of claiming you have so many why don’t you just post one of them.

The church has existed for 1.75 days—since you claimed God’s concept of time and man’s are not the same—you don’t have any basis to try to convert a thousand years into a day. A conversion ratio is useless when the underlying concepts are not the same. And, why doesn’t the term longsuffering only reach to 70AD—based on your logic no reason it shouldn’t since the two concepts of time are different. To reach for this just shows your desperation in not having any verses that support the futurist view. You have painted yourself into a logic corner where you don’t have toe let alone a leg to stand on.

God's Longsuffering is with everyone who trust Christ today, God is patient for them to COME to REPENTENCE during this time of the Church. Why has He delayed HIS coming to allow HIS will to be accomplished. So One Day to the Lord is as a Thousand years and a Thousand years as one day, think about that, interesting how the scoffing you do about it's been alomst 2000 years and yet in that verse in Peter we see exactly 2000 years. Why is time like that because God is Longsuffereing toward us not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentence. Why has He delayed because HE is LONGSUFFERING to those who will be saved.

Back to the generation let's do it yet again. To spare space Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

This generation will not pass away until all these things have come to pass or have been fulfilled. The generation of 70 A.D. did not see them fulfilled, not literally, and there are still many portions to be fulfilled today. When ye "followers of Christ" shall see these things come to pass then know the Kingdom is near. Your belief limits God to the people he was talking to but to do that would mean that any verse you take would just be for those spoken too. Yet the "ye" was not just for those Christ spoke it to but it was taken by those who read it when the epistle was written to mean possibly them, it was also believed by those in the periods that followed and it applies to us today, the generation that sees the fulfillment will not pass away.


But let's look at the disciples generation, John saw it fulfilled in his vision on Patmos, Paul evidently saw it when he was called into the third heaven, Peter saw it too as he tells us that this earth will be consumed with fervent heat and a New Heaven and Earth are coming. I am sure others saw it in visions, so if the way you believe it as the generatio that was alive when Jesus spoke saw it they saw it in a vision and passed away so that generation of Christ time saw it fulfilled in visions.
Doesn't change the fact that scripture says He is coming to set up a literal physical Kingdom on the earth and Jesus will reign on Davids throne. Doesn't change the fact that Paul said we who are alive and remain will not prevent the dead from rising first and we meet Him in the air. Doesn't change scripture that says we will return with Him at the end of the tribulation when He comes as conquring King and set's up His Kingdom at His physical second coming.

Doesn't change the fact that as true Christians we will be taken with Christ and see all fulfilled IN GOD'S TIME, not man's time.

 

[Logos1]

Our rev more inspired than the Holy Spirit

God's Longsuffering is with everyone who trust Christ today, God is patient for them to COME to REPENTENCE during this time of the Church. Why has He delayed HIS coming to allow HIS will to be accomplished. So One Day to the Lord is as a Thousand years and a Thousand years as one day, think about that, interesting how the scoffing you do about it's been alomst 2000 years and yet in that verse in Peter we see exactly 2000 years. Why is time like that because God is Longsuffereing toward us not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentence. Why has He delayed because HE is LONGSUFFERING to those who will be saved.

Back to the generation let's do it yet again. To spare space Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

This generation will not pass away until all these things have come to pass or have been fulfilled. The generation of 70 A.D. did not see them fulfilled, not literally, and there are still many portions to be fulfilled today. When ye "followers of Christ" shall see these things come to pass then know the Kingdom is near. Your belief limits God to the people he was talking to but to do that would mean that any verse you take would just be for those spoken too. Yet the "ye" was not just for those Christ spoke it to but it was taken by those who read it when the epistle was written to mean possibly them, it was also believed by those in the periods that followed and it applies to us today, the generation that sees the fulfillment will not pass away.


But let's look at the disciples generation, John saw it fulfilled in his vision on Patmos, Paul evidently saw it when he was called into the third heaven, Peter saw it too as he tells us that this earth will be consumed with fervent heat and a New Heaven and Earth are coming. I am sure others saw it in visions, so if the way you believe it as the generatio that was alive when Jesus spoke saw it they saw it in a vision and passed away so that generation of Christ time saw it fulfilled in visions.
Doesn't change the fact that scripture says He is coming to set up a literal physical Kingdom on the earth and Jesus will reign on Davids throne. Doesn't change the fact that Paul said we who are alive and remain will not prevent the dead from rising first and we meet Him in the air. Doesn't change scripture that says we will return with Him at the end of the tribulation when He comes as conquring King and set's up His Kingdom at His physical second coming.

Doesn't change the fact that as true Christians we will be taken with Christ and see all fulfilled IN GOD'S TIME, not man's time.

Rev,

I guess since you can’t find any verses that say God is coming back in a long time, a future generation a long time into the future, nor any other verses that place his coming long into the future you are reduced to distorting the term longsuffering as well.

Pity that you are so hamstrung on a defeated, unsupported notion that you can’t realize that every verse in the NT that addresses the issue of time places Christ’s coming back soon. A pity that you can’t accept the inspired scripture as they were written and need to monkey around with them support a desperate and hopeless view of prophecy.

Even the word “ye” you are slaughtering in a desperate and laughable manner. Anybody can do a little bit of research and find out that it is used to mean the plural of you that it is applies to people in general not just one person so ye means those people collectively of Jesus’ generation. It never ever means future generation-LOL. That some of those multitudes listening to him would see all things fulfilled. That means ALL prophecy would be fulfilled in the lifetime of some in that generation. I’ve seen futurists wax desperately and pitifully trying to distort verses before, but never frail about in the laughable way you have in this post rev.

Your last paragraph is just an odd collection of denials which is as delusional as it is desperate. I’ll let you stew in your own universe there instead of rehash them tonight.

The Holy Spirit speaking through Paul has always been quick to correct people when they were wrong about something so we can bank on the fact that he knew Christ was returning soon since the Holy Spirit didn’t correct the Thessalonians about their expectation of a return in their life time.

I suppose you would like to suggest the Holy Spirit was wrong too rev.

 

[revmwc]

Rev,

I guess since you can’t find any verses that say God is coming back in a long time, a future generation a long time into the future, nor any other verses that place his coming long into the future you are reduced to distorting the term longsuffering as well.

Pity that you are so hamstrung on a defeated, unsupported notion that you can’t realize that every verse in the NT that addresses the issue of time places Christ’s coming back soon. A pity that you can’t accept the inspired scripture as they were written and need to monkey around with them support a desperate and hopeless view of prophecy.

Even the word “ye” you are slaughtering in a desperate and laughable manner. Anybody can do a little bit of research and find out that it is used to mean the plural of you that it is applies to people in general not just one person so ye means those people collectively of Jesus’ generation. It never ever means future generation-LOL. That some of those multitudes listening to him would see all things fulfilled. That means ALL prophecy would be fulfilled in the lifetime of some in that generation. I’ve seen futurists wax desperately and pitifully trying to distort verses before, but never frail about in the laughable way you have in this post rev.

Your last paragraph is just an odd collection of denials which is as delusional as it is desperate. I’ll let you stew in your own universe there instead of rehash them tonight.

The Holy Spirit speaking through Paul has always been quick to correct people when they were wrong about something so we can bank on the fact that he knew Christ was returning soon since the Holy Spirit didn’t correct the Thessalonians about their expectation of a return in their life time.

I suppose you would like to suggest the Holy Spirit was wrong too rev.

Yes the Holy Spirit was very quick through Paul to correct those who were wrong, He quickly through Paul corrected those who said Christ had come "metaphorically" or "spiritually" in:
2 Thessaloninas 1: 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

They had been troubled by those who believed Christ would come in the "spiritual" or "metaphorical" verse 7 Paul told them to rest with Paul and the rest that this wouldn't happen.
Notice He says Jesus would be "revealed" so let's look at the Greek for revealed the word is "Apokalupsis":

Strong's Number: 602 a)poka/luyiv
Original Word Word Origin
a)poka/luyiv from (601)
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Apokalupsis ap-ok-al'-oop-sis
Parts of Speech TDNT
Noun Feminine 3:563,405
Definition
1 laying bear, making naked
2 a disclosure of truth, instruction
a. concerning things before unknown
b. used of events by which things or states or persons hitherto withdrawn from view are made visible to all
3 manifestation, appearance

Now we can see that definition 1 would not fit here at all, so we must look at the next, 2 fits it is a disclosure of truth, but it is speaking of Christ being revealed, sub point a. this doesn't fit the Thessalonians knew that He would be revealed, so sub point b. this fits the dispie veiw that Christ is currently out of view but will be made visible with His angels as verse 7 tells us. Of course the word used that way doesn't fit the Preterist view that he came "metaphorically" or "Spiritually" unseen. So then number 3 a manisfestation or appearance,

It says "revealed from heaven" so what does the greek from shows us, it is "Apo":
Strong's Number: 575 a)po/
Original Word Word Origin
a)po/ a primary particle
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Apo apo'
Parts of Speech TDNT
preposition None
Definition
1 of separation
a. of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing, ...
b. of separation of a part from the whole
1.where of a whole some part is taken
c. of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed
d. of a state of separation, that is of distance
1. physical, of distance of place
2. temporal, of distance of time
2 of origin
a. of the place whence anything is, comes, befalls, is taken
b. of origin of a cause
So again let's see what fits, He was not seen but will be seen "from (Apo)", number 1. seperation either a. from a place or b. apart from the whole, well 1.a. would seem to fit Christ will be appear seperated from Heaven fits the dispie view but not the Preterist view.
1. b. seperation of a part from the whole, and 1. under that where of a whole some part was taken, well that would be Christ in the whole heaven sperated from it, that again fits the dispie view of a return in the air and a literal second coming too, virtually this whole word means seperated from heaven.

Verse 7 can be seen with these two Greek words as saying, Christ and the Angels who were "hitherto withdrawn from view are made visible to all" and that they will be seperated out of Heaven. Very clear He will be seen upon His return the Holy Spirit very quickly dispelled that error of a "metaphorical" or "spiritual" only return.

 

[HankD]

Rev,
I guess since you can’t find any verses that say God is coming back in a long time, a future generation a long time into the future, nor any other verses that place his coming long into the future you are reduced to distorting the term longsuffering as well

God's view of a long or short time is different than ours:

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.​

Accordingly then the Lord has been gone for two days.

Pity that you are so hamstrung on a defeated, unsupported notion that you can’t realize that every verse in the NT that addresses the issue of time places Christ’s coming back soon. A pity that you can’t accept the inspired scripture as they were written and need to monkey around with them support a desperate and hopeless view of prophecy.

Will you accept this scripture as written?

Acts 1

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.​

Or​

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

HankD​