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Does God always get what he ultimately wants?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, Jul 13, 2011.

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  1. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    FWIW, 'God the Son' is speaking from the standpoint of 'centuries' of dealing with Jerusalem, not just those three years of His earthly mission, just as 'God the Spirit' was speaking through Stephen in Acts 7.
     
    #61 kyredneck, Jul 14, 2011
  2. humblethinker

    humblethinker Active Member

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
    #62 humblethinker, Jul 14, 2011
  3. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Again...

    One CANNOT actually atribute to god as being the direct cause/forcing determining that Nazi tried to exterminate Jews, Stalin and Mao killing their Millions...
    That IS Satanic, and God permitting all of that, and he wa/is at work redeeming goodness out of all that evil, but he is NOT doing all of that directly, and He knows that one day he WILL direct rule on Earth, his Kingdom will indeed come, burt NOT in its fulness until Second Coming of jesus Christ!
     
    #63 JesusFan, Jul 14, 2011
  4. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    God has directly determined the state of those whom will be the saved by His grace. the ELECT of God..

    Those whom are NOT found to be saved by god in Jesus Christ will be going to hell, and the Lord HAS determined that all those who are NOT found to be inChrist will go there as punishment for sins

    BUT God does not cause/force the sinners into hell, he permits/a;;ows them to go there based on their choices made...

    God directs/determines his redeemed, decreed what willbe the end of the lost, is NOT though Allah, directly causing them to go there

    NOT beliver of Double predestination being found in Bible!
     
    #64 JesusFan, Jul 14, 2011
  5. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Please refrain from personally demeaning comments. It is not necessary in a conversation with a fellow brother to call him a coward and a liar.

    I never said it was. I merely explained that the phraseology you chose can be taken to mean many different things, while my phraseology leaves no room for misunderstanding. Saying "God wills that people go to hell," is not a clear intent, while saying "God permits people to go to hell, but doesn't take pleasure in that," is very clear.
    Once again, your phrasing carries much ambiguity. I'd say, "God permitted for a vast number to perish in hell, but did not take pleasure in the perishing of the wicked." Those two phrases may mean the same thing to the author, but they are not both clear to the readers. I believe this is a common error you have made in our discussions.

    I doubt they disagree with me as much as you think they do. As explained above, I think your choice of words is less than clear than it could be leading to much confusion.

    Yet, that doesn't mean you wouldn't have the cognitive ability to understand and correctly represent a view if it was presented. In the same manner, I am capable to hear and understand your view despite your endless and baseless charges to the contrary.

    I KNOW you don't believe "God does EVIL," which is why I have included the statement "but God when God does 'IT' it is not called 'evil,' because he does it with a pure motive."

    Luke, 'IT' represents the subject at hand, which is and was 'EVIL.' (the word in the brackets). You say Satan does IT and God does IT. The qualifier is that IT is not evil when God does IT, but is when someone else does IT. We all understand IT, but now we are moving on to try and discover why you appeal to mystery regarding the origin of IT on the one hand, but on the other say IT isn't EVIL when God does IT.

    Nothing can come from nothing? Really?
    Dahmer's intent to eat, molest and kill is "NOTHING?" Really?
    Satan's intent to "become like God," is "NOTHING?" Really?

    You mean it doesn't exist? Please expound.

    Can you point me to a scholar who teaches these things? I listened to the video and I never heard these things being taught.
     
    #65 Skandelon, Jul 14, 2011
  6. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Luke said:

    God hasn't failed, men have. If a man refuses to submit to God and trust in Jesus, the man has failed, not God. God has provided that man everything he needs to be saved. He does not require of men what they cannot do, but simply that they trust or depend upon Jesus to save them.

    Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

    What do the scriptures say? Do they say God fails? No. They say man fails.
     
    #66 Winman, Jul 14, 2011
  7. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    Would someone please let me know what the "acceptable" "Systems of Theology are around here. I have been continually getting the picture if I don't have one of the pre approved "systems" then I am just "ridiculous" foolish, ignorant and uneducated. I REALLY don't like feeling this way.
     
    #67 quantumfaith, Jul 14, 2011
  8. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Thats cause your rediculously foolish, ignorant & an uneducated "Redneck" (errr....I mean yokel) ! LOL (Just being a smart alec) :thumbs::laugh:

    Who loves ya baby!:thumbs:
     
    #68 Earth Wind and Fire, Jul 14, 2011
  9. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    I will have you know, not all of us in Alabama marry our cousins and live in trailers, but we do eat grits. :)
     
    #69 quantumfaith, Jul 14, 2011
  10. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Luke said people attribute failure to God, not that the Scriptures say this. You seem to often be fighting against the wrong argument. I see this quite often in your responses.
     
    #70 preacher4truth, Jul 14, 2011
  11. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Surprised that no one sat you down at conversion and have you take the "purely Baptist Theology" quiz!

    basically, it depends which Moderator addresses your post!

    (just kidding!)
     
    #71 JesusFan, Jul 14, 2011
  12. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Yes, this is Calvinism.

    The Westminster Confession says this very thing.
    The London Baptist Confession affirms this very thing as well.

    Spurgeon said it EXQUISITELY (as he is known to do):

    I believe that every particle of dust that dances in the sunbeam does not move an atom more or less than God wishes – that every particle of spray that dashes against the steamboat has its orbit, as well as the sun in the heavens – that the chaff from the hand of the winnower is steered as the stars in their courses. The creeping of an aphid over the rosebud is as much fixed as the march of the devastating pestilence – the fall of . . . leaves from a poplar is as fully ordained as the tumbling of an avalanche.

    Yes, and I love this point you are making. It is a VERY good argument!
    KUDOS!

    The only thing I would add for clarification is a distinction between what Calvin called "remote" and "proximate" causes.

    God is the REMOTE or ULTIMATE cause for everything- period.

    Skandelon, a devout Arminian, confirms this.

    But there are SECONDARY, or proximate causes- and when people are themselves those secondary causes they are accountable for what they have caused.



    This is correct. But he still holds you and I accountable for those things which we are the proximate cause of. He has ULTIMATELY caused it by willing that it should be and by ordering the universe so that with the passage of time and events these things will invincibly come to pass- but he is not the MORAL cause of the immoral which we do.

    Since it is wrong for you to embrace a belief that is not right concerning God you will still be held accountable. God did not DIRECTLY cause you to believe that- God simply backed off his moral influence and allowed you to believe what you will. You are accountable for what you believe.

    Keep in mind that even SATAN is in the ULTIMATE will of God- he will certainly be held accountable, nonetheless for what he causes proximately.
     
    #72 Luke2427, Jul 15, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 15, 2011
  13. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    No one is saying that he has a direct MORAL involvement in the evil of those deeds.

    But they could not happen had they not been ordained by God. NOT JUST THE OUTCOME- but the events THEMSELVES.

    Here is Piper on Calvin on the matter:
     
    #73 Luke2427, Jul 15, 2011
  14. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    You lead the way by representing me honestly and by DIRECTLY addressing the subject matter at hand rather than deflecting.

    No. This intentionally skirts the issue at hand.

    What you say here is not specific enough to even ADDRESS the subject matter in discussion.

    Do you believe that God purposed in eternity past that men go to hell or not?

    I know you do because you HAVE a theology and NO ONE with any REAL theology can deny this.

    You can skirt it by saying this "permit" mess which is so ambiguous that NO ONE disagrees with it- not me, not Arminians, not Catholics, not Mormons, not Muslims, not ANYBODY.

    This PERMIT statement is worthless and meaningless because it is so VAGUE that it does not answer ANYTHING.

    Of COURSE God permits men to go to hell.

    That is not the question.

    The question which I am considering you to be cowardly for skirting and avoiding and purposefully refusing to specifically answer is this:

    Do you believe that God purposed in eternity past that men go to hell or not?



    Whether God is happy about it or not is not even an issue here.

    I do not believe God is happy that men go to hell. I don't KNOW anyone who believes that!

    This clarification is no clarification at all on your part. It is a smokescreen that you have thrown up for months now to keep from revealing what you REALLY believe to these who have no theology.

    Do you believe that (whether happy about it or terribly sad about it) God purposed for men to go to hell in eternity past or not?

    When God planned to build the universe did his plan and intention include that men go to hell or do men go to hell AGAINST the eternal purposes of God?

    Let me be more specific:
    Joe goes to hell. Did God purpose that in eternity past?
    Is Joe's presence in hell a perfect fulfillment of God's eternal purposes?

    Enter a skandelon deflection.

    Then let's see. Answer clearly:

    When God planned to build the universe did his plan and intention include that men go to hell or do men go to hell AGAINST the eternal purposes of God?

    You know your REAL answer is YES. You know this is so because you KNOW that not ONE of God's eternal purposes can be thwarted.

    You know this because you HAVE a REAL theology.

    You know if you say YES that those who do NOT have a real theology will reject you on this issue as much as they reject Calvinists.

    Then show it.

    IT refers to DEEDS- not evil. In EVERY instance of our exchanges that has been the case.

    A deed is not in and of itself EVIL because a DEED is not a PERSON. A deed has no PERSONALITY. EVIL as a moral force exists only in the motives of men.

    Is stabbing a man to death EVIL?

    NO. NEITHER is it good.

    The only thing that can MAKE a deed evil or good is the heart of the one DOING the deed.

    WHY is he stabbing the man to death? What is his MOTIVE?

    That is the ONLY thing that determines whether something is good or evil.

    You name a deed you consider evil and I will show you how it could be NON-evil if no evil intent is involved.

    God KILLED JESUS. The Bible says so in no uncertain terms.

    Herod and Pilate killed Jesus. The Bible says so clearly.

    God did IT (the deed) with a RIGHTEOUS motive.
    Herod and Pilate did it with a wicked motive.

    The deed on Herod and Pilate's part was evil.
    The deed on God's part was righteous.


    No. See above.

    IT refers to the DEED- not the EVIL.



    Yes. Really.

    Just exactly the same way that darkness is nothing.
    Can nothing be a bad thing- philosophically yes.

    Tell me- what is darkness?

    Cold, I am told is nothing but the ABSENCE of heat.

    Can cold be a bad thing? Certainly. But define cold. Cold is not SOMETHING. It is only the ABSENCE of that which is SOEMTHING- heat.

    HEAT IS SOMETHING. It is energy.

    Cold is not energy. It is not matter. It is not emotion. It is not thought. It is nothing.

    In exactly the same way, Augustine declares, evil is NOTHING but the absence of good.



    The video was on compatabalism. That addressed another part of your argument and proved that I am not on the fringe of Calvinism as you once ignorantly declared when I say that God DID the DEED.

    Are you not familiar with Augustine's theodicy?
     
    #74 Luke2427, Jul 15, 2011
  15. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    I always hold to accountability, but because of free will not because of Devine predestination. Using your assumption, God backed off His moral influence and He has also allowed you to believe as you do. In either case I see no judgment as neither belief has any substance in the salvation process or in the sanctification of the individual. It is merely an acknowledgement of what one or the other understands about the God they serve and in the end most likely both hold inconsistencies about the truth of the character of the God of creation.
     
    #75 freeatlast, Jul 15, 2011
  16. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    It is the very HEART of the matter of salvation.

    Is salvation all of God (monergistic) or is it a cooperative effort on the part of God and the sinner (synergistic)?

    And to say that it is not a matter of substance is to do as Erasmus did against Martin Luther to which Luther responded:

    “BUT this is still more intolerable,—Your enumerating this subject of "Free-will" among those things that are "useless, and not necessary;" and drawing up for us, instead of it, a "Form" of those things which you consider "necessary unto Christian piety...
    “If, as you say, it be "irreligious," if it be "curious," if it be "superfluous," to know, whether or not God foreknows any thing by contingency; whether our own will does any thing in those things which pertain unto eternal salvation, or is only passive under the work of grace; whether or not we do, what we do of good or evil, from necessity, or rather from being passive; what then, I ask, is religious; what is grave; what is useful to be known?”

    Bondage of the Will- Section 5.
     
    #76 Luke2427, Jul 15, 2011
  17. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    My mother in law lives in a trailer in Florida, I have family who married cousins...but grits are a Southen thang...we have Mothers oats. Now, do you have a still?:smilewinkgrin:
     
    #77 Earth Wind and Fire, Jul 15, 2011
  18. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Actually, BOTH cals and ARMS DO affirm that we are responsible to exercise 'saving faith" in jesus, and become saved by grace of God though!

    BOTH affirm that man CANNOT make that decision unles/until God permits him to be enabled to place faithin jesus, differ in that WE see God enabling JUST those elcted by Him and granted "irresestible Grace" while Arms see it as God enabling by prevelient grace ALL to have option to reject/accept Christ!

    Do you believe even placing personal faith in jesus and getting saved ia a work adding to grace than?
     
    #78 JesusFan, Jul 15, 2011
  19. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Just for clarity Luke, I think you mean, "Is regeneration all of God (monergistic)..." because as JesusFan pointed out, even Calvinistis affirm the cooperative effort of man AFTER the man has been regenerated. So, salvation is synergistic for both of us, its the work of regeneration that is monergistic for you.
     
    #79 Skandelon, Jul 15, 2011
  20. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    No part of salvation is TRULY synergistic because all of it is initiated and empowered and brought to pass by One- God.

    The regenerate heart believes- but only because God gives him faith to believe and enables him to believe and causes him to believe.

    That's monergistic salvation- not just regeneration.
     
    #80 Luke2427, Jul 15, 2011
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