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Why did Peter begin to sink?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Winman, Jul 16, 2011.

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  1. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Receiving is used as a synonym for believeing many times in the scriptures.

    Jn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    Does this verse say God gave power to men so that they might receive him, even to believe on his name?

    NO. It says that as many as RECEIVED HIM to them gave he POWER to BECOME the sons of God. And then it explains that this receiving is believeing on his name.

    Receiving or believeing COMES FIRST. Only after receiving or believeing does God give you the POWER to BECOME a son of God.

    This verse is very direct and simple, I do not see how you could misconstrue it. It absolutely shows a person must first receive and believe on Jesus before God gives you the power to become a son of God.

    It is like my avatar. Jesus knocks on your door. He has the POWER to save you. But you must RECEIVE HIM. You must open the door and invite him in. If you do open the door, he has promised to come in to you. If you do not open the door, he will not save you.
     
    #101 Winman, Jul 19, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 19, 2011
  2. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    #102 JesusFan, Jul 19, 2011
  3. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    so is faith ever a gift of God. you seem to be arguing that faith is never a gift.
     
    #103 jbh28, Jul 19, 2011
  4. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Faith was a supernatural gift in someway in the first century.
    How it is a gift today? I don't know how it could be.

    Let's examine it. What is faith?
    Faith is confidence in the word of another--particularly the promises of God (Romans 4:20,21)
    Where does faith come from?
    Romans 10:17: Faith comes by hearing and hearing from the Word of God.

    Therefore, the more I read, study, memorize, and am familiar with God's Word the more faith I will have. Having said that, faith is also closely tied with relationship. The closer my relationship with God, the more I can and will trust him. That relationship develops over time as I spend both time in prayer and in His word.

    I use the same illustration with my wife. When we were engaged I trusted here some. After a couple years of marriage we knew each other better, and I had a great deal more confidence in her. We have been married now for over 25 years. I know her well enough that when she says she will do something she will do it unless she is sick. I can predict many things because I know her well. Our relationship has developed. I have a great deal of faith/confidence in her. Why? Because of the time spent with her.

    The more time a believer spends with God the more his faith in God will increase. God doesn't increase faith; he allows faith to increase in direct proportion to the amount of time spent with him in prayer and in His Word. He has no magical hypodermic needle. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. It comes by having a relationship with Christ.
     
    #104 DHK, Jul 19, 2011
  5. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Faith increases as we believe. You might believe God for something small, and it comes to pass as you requested of God. This will increase your confidence and faith. This is why Jesus compared faith to a tiny mustard seed. As we exercise faith and God answers our prayers, it will grow into a huge plant.

    Mk 4:31 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:
    32 But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.

    I can honestly say God has answered my prayers many hundreds of times. I have become very confident concerning prayer. It is not because of anything good in me, but simply that I believed God's word and asked for things in prayer. When I received my request, it gave me more confidence.

    And this has not given me a swelled ego, quite the contrary. When God answers my prayers, I am amazed that he is so good and merciful to me. I feel all the more ashamed when I am not a good Christian and do not do the things he wants me to do when he has been so good to me. Nevertheless, I know for a fact that God answers my prayers on a regular basis.
     
    #105 Winman, Jul 19, 2011
  6. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    The word of God indeed has "power" in it , especially the Gospel, but it is limited to being able to produce saving faith in those able to hear and respond to it...

    NOT ALL who hear/read/taught it will respond and believe, it does it intended work to have the Elect receive Jesus Christ and be saved!
     
    #106 JesusFan, Jul 19, 2011
  7. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I never said it did. I also don't believe the same way you do on election.
    But that is another subject.
    If a fire breaks out in your apartment (you live on the 10th floor supposing). You go to the balcony and yell for help. A fireman is coming up the ladder. He tells you if you take my hand I will rescue you. You have a choice. You can put your confidence in him/have faith in his words or promise, or you can say--nah your a phony, I'll do it myself; I always do everything myself. If you choose the latter you will perish. If you choose to put your faith in the word of another, you will live. The fireman will get you to safety.

    We exercise faith everyday. Faith is confidence in the word of another. You can choose to believe God and his promises or you can choose not to. That is up to you. Even Peter chose to deny Christ three times. Christ may have prophesied it; but he didn't force Peter into doing it.

    I don't take anything away from the Word of God. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation.
    But one still has the choice to believe it. Faith comes by hearing...
     
    #107 DHK, Jul 19, 2011
  8. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    You still haven't learned your mistaken premise in the Thessalonian Epistle, no need to move on with this until then.
     
    #108 preacher4truth, Jul 19, 2011
  9. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Faith has been, and always will be a Supernatural gift, no matter the date on the calendar.

    :)
     
    #109 preacher4truth, Jul 19, 2011
  10. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    So what hypodermic needle did God inject you with?
    And when did he perform this operation?
    This is very interesting.
    Why do you say it is supernatural?
    What makes faith supernatural.
    An infant has faith in their parents. Is that also supernatural?
     
    #110 DHK, Jul 19, 2011
  11. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Faith comes via the Word of God. Literally from it. Romans 10:17.

    His Word? Life. All things come from Christ. Think about it, all things.

    He has given to us all things 1 Peter 1:1-3. We have nothing that He didn't give to us, see 1 Cor. 4:7, so why boast as if we didn't receive it?

    There is no reason to boast except in Him. Romans 15:17.

    - Peace
     
    #111 preacher4truth, Jul 19, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 19, 2011
  12. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    You say this over and over again, post after post. Doesn't make it true. You will not find one verse in scripture that says God has to regenerate a person to have the ability to believe. Your view is based on man's doctrine, not scripture, and if you repeat it a thousand times it will still be man's doctrine and not scripture.

    Jn 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

    Here, Jesus challenged the scribes and Pharisees. He challenged them to show when and where he had committed sin. Of course, they could not, because Jesus never sinned.

    That was sufficient evidence for them to believe. They should have been thoroughly convinced by Jesus's sinless behavior that he was the Son of God and therefore should have believed his words.

    But notice Jesus asked them why do they not believe him. Does that make sense if God gives faith to a person? Wouldn't Jesus know for an absolute fact that faith was not given to these unbelievers? Why would he ask a question of them he already knows the answer to?

    So you see, your doctrine does not line up with scripture at all. These persons could have believed, but simply refused to. They had all the evidence they needed to believe in Jesus's sinless life.

    Jn 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

    Here is another example. Jesus said they should have believed because of his words and his sinless behavior, but if that was not enough evidence, believe because of the works he did. He healed the blind, the lame, lepers, deaf and dumb, devil-possessed, all sorts of ailments. He turned water to wine, made a tree wither in one day, spoke and calmed a storm, walked on water. What more evidence do they need? I mean, if you don't believe after seeing all this evidence, you have a hard heart indeed.

    But why would Jesus tell anyone to believe if they did not have the ability? Did Jesus forget that a person must be regenerated to have the ability to believe?

    If your doctrine is true, most of the scriptures is non-sensical.
     
    #112 Winman, Jul 19, 2011
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  13. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Why do you omit things from the Scripture making the Bible say what it doesn't say? Do you have a purpose in doing this?

    So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10:17)

    It doesn't say what you said. It says faith comes by hearing.
    Then it says "hearing by the word of God."

    So you are wrong in your post by deliberately misquoting Scripture.
     
    #113 DHK, Jul 19, 2011
  14. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    To whom will the Gospel message save though?
    To them who has "ears to hear"
    Something about the Lord granting to His own "Godly repentance leading to eternal life" and " revealing to them the truth/openinng up their minds?"

    One dead in sins and transgressions cannot hear until the HS grants that ability unto him!
     
    #114 JesusFan, Jul 19, 2011
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  15. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Those with ears to hear are those who will listen. You are a perfect example, you are being shown numerous scriptures that refute your view, but you refuse to listen, you do not have ears to hear.

    The scriptures do not show man unable to believe, they show him unwilling. They are not the same.

    You have the ability to hear and understand everything DHK and I have told you. You are not unable to hear it, you are UNWILLING.
     
    #115 Winman, Jul 19, 2011
  16. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Interesting that both of you also 'refuse' to hear what I have to say from the Bible though, isn't it?
     
    #116 JesusFan, Jul 19, 2011
  17. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    What have you shown from the scriptures? Show me one verse in all of scripture that says a man must be regenerated to have the ability to believe.

    Please be patient with me and show me this scripture.
     
    #117 Winman, Jul 19, 2011
  18. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    I omitted nothing, since I didn't quote it.

    It's from the Word, just like from it all life comes. You're saying life comes from your ability to hear. Incorrect.

    You're misunderstanding the passage. That, and the rest of the Scripture I give, you haven't commented on.

    Note: FROM the Word of Christ. Not you.

    I'm not deliberatley wrong, or omitting a thing. No need for that from you. OK?
     
    #118 preacher4truth, Jul 19, 2011
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  19. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    1. In reality you have given very little from the Bible.
    2. You have failed in all attempts to demonstrate that faith is a gift from God.
    3. In all our discussions I have noticed that, though I have defined faith numerous times, I have never had any definition of faith from you.

    It seems to me that you believe that faith is some mystical intangible new age existential substance that God somehow supernaturally gives a person. You can't explain how. You can't demonstrate it from Scripture. You just believe it by blind faith because it is a Calvinistic belief. Right?
     
    #119 DHK, Jul 19, 2011
  20. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    OK!
    "The natural man receives NOT the things from/of the Spirit, for they ARE spiritually discerned!"
     
    #120 JesusFan, Jul 19, 2011
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