This is the Third day

GE:

Not me ...

 

GE:

Please be patient; I'll be back DV on this last remark of yours ....
or you could look up my REPEATED statements on the matter here on BB, yourself.

Not the time at present .....

 

GE:,

re: "Not me ..."


?????????????????

 

From another conversation of mine with a Church of God fundi ...


COG:
MARK 8:31 (Jesus) 31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Note 1: The words translated “after three days” in both of these scriptures are the Greek words meta treij hmeraj (Gtr. meta treis hemeras) which are in the accusative case. As far as time is concerned, the accusative case deals with “duration over a whole period” (D.F. Hudson p105; Ward Powers p106; H.P.V. Nunn p40), not “duration within a period”, that would be genitive case (See #2.23 Note). As the preposition “meta” literally means “after”, these statements make it clear that Jesus could not rise within this three day period specified, it had to be some time after it.”

GE:
For all practical purposes there is no difference between “duration over a whole period” and “duration within a period”. Even your English, Cog, taking “duration over a whole period” for duration beyond a whole period, is pathetic.

This then after all is your whole argument upon which you build your proposition, “As the preposition “meta” literally means “after”, these statements make it clear that Jesus could not rise within this three day period specified, it had to be some time after it.” After all, it’s not used “literally” and like other words of any language, may be used idiomatically instead.

You must be aware of the best principles of interpreting the word of God in a case such as this, but obviously safely ignore them. Because you fully realise you wrongly ‘interpret’ ‘the words translated “after three days”’, “literally”, knowing full well when used IDIOMATICALLY AS IN THE PHRASE, “after three days”, the preposition “meta”-”after” — or better, the phrase intact as a whole — means precisely the same as had the Dative or Genitive – without the Preposition ‘meta’ – been used.

Having in each case of the Dative and Genitive argued it means “IN three days” / “ON the third day”, you now only create contradictions and irreconcilabilities, arguing, “As the preposition “meta” literally means “after”, these statements make it clear that Jesus could not rise within this three day period specified, it had to be some time after it.”

Dana and Mantey, ‘A Manual Grammar of the NT’ defines the
“ROOT meaning” of ‘meta’ as “in the midst of”!
“In composition: three clearly defined meanings.
(1) With.
(2) After .... “Send after / for Simon”, ‘metapempsai Simohna’ Acts 10:5.
(3) ....change....
Resultant meaning [as Preposition]
Mk1:13, “with the wild animals”, ‘meta tohn thehri-ohn’.
Lk5:27, “after these things”, ‘meta tauta’.”

The syntactical or contextual meaning of the Preposition ‘meta’ is very simply when used for relation it means ‘after’, when used for association it means ‘with’, and when used idiomatically like in “after three days”-‘meta trehis hehmeras’ (Acc.) in Mt27:63b, it means “within three days”.

The idiomatic use in Greek of ‘meta’ is just like the idiomatic use of ‘after’ in English, even in the same phrase, ‘after three days’. ‘He set the trap and when he returned after three days, he found the culprit ensnared.’ If the story were told with the names of the days of the week, it would go, ‘He set the trap on Thursday and when he returned on Saturday, he found the culprit ensnared.’

 

Cog:
“Note 2: We cannot take this to be a period of three separate complete days, because that would mean that he rose after the 17th day, at least on the 18th, and it would contradict many other scriptures (See #2.21). So in accordance with the best principles of translating scripture (See RP 301 #4.08 “Make Sense of the Apparent Contradictions”), we can count this as a period of three whole days in length, that is 72 hours. If we take it to start from the time of his death, around 3 p.m. on the 14th day, then he must have risen at some time after 3 p.m. on the 17th day, but before 6 p.m. which would be the start of the 18th day for the Jews.”

GE:
We cannot take the “three days” to be a period of three separate complete days, because that would mean that Jesus rose after the “three days”, on “the 17th day”, and it would contradict all the Scriptures.

So in accordance with the best principles of translating Scripture, we can count and must count the “three days” and “the third day” and “after three days” as the three days “according to the Scriptures”, the passover-days of the fourteenth, fifteenth and sixteenth days of the First Month and respectively the days of the Crucifixion, of the Burial, and of the Resurrection.

These will have been three ordinary calendar days on the Hebrew calendar, together, 72 hours long on anybody’s watch, yes. But that’s not the point; the point is they were THESE days and NO other of passover!

If we take it to start from the time of Jesus’ death, ‘3 p.m.’ or “the ninth hour” on the 14th day of the First Month, then he must have risen ‘3 p.m.’ or “mid-afternoon” on the 16th day of the First Month, First Sheaf Wave Offering for the Jews on passover, and three hours before 6 p.m. sunset which would be the start of the day after, and no longer would be the “three days” or “the third day according to the Scriptures” of passover.

 

Cog:
“2.25 He was raised after three days and three nights
JONAH 1:17
17 Now the LORD had prepared a great whale to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the whale three days and three nights.
MATTHEW 12:40 (Jesus)
40 For as Jonah was three day and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Note 1: The sequence of events following Jonah's three days and three nights in the belly of the fish are as follows:
(Jonah 2:1) “Then Jonah prayed to the LORD his God”,
(Jonah 2:10) “And the Lord spoke to the fish,”
(Jonah 2:10) “and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.”

In each case here the underlined words “Then”, “And”, and “and”, are the same conjunction (Hb. ?? , Htr. va) which can mean “and”, or “but” or “or”, depending upon the context (J. Weingreen p40), and it can also mean “then”. It doesn't mean “prior to this”, or “before this”, or “during which time”. We can see that it is being used here to join a sequence of events which follow one another, from which we can conclude that Jonah spent three whole days and three whole nights in the belly of the fish (Jonah 1:17), that is, at least 72 hours of time. After this the Lord spoke to the fish, and the fish vomited Jonah out on the dry land.”

GE:
Now just say it was not written that the fish spew Jonas out after three days, it would not have been possible to deduce that Jonas was in the fish for three days, no matter how many times the word or concept ‘when’ occurred in the narrative. Jonas did these things as soon as he got into the fish; not day by day one thing at a time. It’s silly; and so is your whole argument.

Jonas prayed to the LORD, and the Lord spoke to the fish, and the fish vomited Jonah out, but it’s impossible to see that these things are here being used “to join a sequence .... from which we can conclude that Jonah spent three whole days and three whole nights in the belly of the fish”— it’s sheer speculation. Even less is it possible that this could show “at least 72 hours of time”.

As soon as the fish swallowed Jonas, Jonas prayed to the LORD. The fish didn’t swallow Jonas on day one “then” Jonas only on day two began to pray; “then” the Lord spoke to the fish on day three; “then” the fish vomited Jonas out on day four.... only to prove your stupid lie, “at least 72 hours of time .... the fish vomited Jonah out .... after” the “literal” ‘third day’! What absolute rubbish! Not the book of Jonah or Jesus spoke of “72 hours of time” or of ““at least 72 hours of time”. They both spoke of “three days and three nights”— no single hour MORE, literally or figuratively.

You persistently ignore that these “three days and three nights” indicated the “time during which” Jonas as well as Jesus, experienced dying, death, and hell – the ‘breaking down of the temple’ – ALIVE. You insistently deny that exactly the very day and event of PRIMER importance — the FOURTEENTH day of the First Month and his Death on the fourteenth day of the First Month —, are of the essence of the prophecy. You deliberate mute the fact that “that period of time” throughout its whole, literal duration of “three days and three nights” – and hence the Accusative – was meant and destined unto this passover-end-and-purpose of Christ, and that “the prophet Jonas” of THIS, was “given as a sign”. You make the entire case of “three days and three nights” a grave-situation, which is utterly short-sighted, meaningless and to the dead and bare bones as dry.

“The prophet Jonas” — “that period of time” in its entirety as well as Jonas’ entire experience —, was “a sign”, one “figure / type / symbol” of Jesus’ LAST SUFFERING. The symbolism and figure and sign and type, was of Jesus’ passover, of his atoning DESCENT TO HELL. Not the “three days and three nights”-aspect isolated merely, and not of Jesus having been in the grave unconscious and dead exclusively, and least of all of the in-the-grave-state of Christ on days each one day PAST the prophesied and fulfilled days and dates of the Scriptures. You miss the whole point of Christ’s referring to “the prophet Jonah (as) a sign given to you”; a miss by one day and another one day and another one day is as bad as misconception could get.

 

Cog:
“Note 2: In the New Testament, the expression “three days and three nights” (Gr. treij hmeraj kai treij nuktaj, Gtr. treis hemeras kai treis nuktas) (Matthew 12:40) is in the accusative case, and as we have already seen (#2.24 Note 1), the accusative case denotes a complete period of time. It does not normally mean “a time during which”, that would be the genitive case, or “a point in that period of time”, that would have to be the dative case. So we can take this period of time to be at least 72 hours, counting 12 hours in each day (John 11:9), and 12 hours in each night. This was not the time between his death and resurrection, but the time that he was “in the heart of the earth”, that is, the time between his burial in the tomb, and his resurrection.”

GE:
“.... the accusative case denotes a complete period of time”, yes, “a
complete period”, in this case, “three days and three nights” of the passover’s “three days” of 14, 15 and 16 Abib or Crucifixion-day, Burial-day and Resurrection-day. Not something else (“72 hours”; “the 17th day”), and not something beyond or before (“at least”), the “complete period” of “three days and three nights”. And not something instead, “The first day would be the 15th” instead of Abib 14; “the second day would be the 16th” instead of Abib 15; and “the 17th day” instead of Abib16.
“The accusative case denotes a complete period of time” as little before as little beyond or past THE “three days and three nights” of Jesus’ Jonas’– or passover–experience! “So we can take this period of time to be at least 72 hours, counting 12 hours in each day (John 11:9), and 12 hours in each night”, not to be MORE than “72 hours”. Because this was the time between from and including his Suffering Death; including his Burial; and to and including his resurrection, the VERY time that He VERILY was “in the heart of the earth”, that is, the time SINCE AND between his entering in consciously into the Passover of Yahweh through the Sufferings of his Obedience in fullest of his Deity, and including his goings through the Tomb and out of death and from among the dead into his Resurrection. “The accusative case denotes a complete period of time” in its most absolute – that is, Divine completeness.

This Divine completeness was NOT “the time between his burial in the tomb, and his resurrection.” This was the complete period of time “that he was “in the heart of the earth”” in its completeness experienced Divinely, humanly incomprehensible, “in the heart of the earth”.


Cog:
“2.26 Conclusion concerning the time of the resurrection of Jesus
We have already shown that Jesus rose at some point in time on the 17th of the month Nisan (See #2.21; #2.22)....”

GE:
And we have already seen you have not.

 

GE:

Well, obviously there were NO guards at the tomb on Sunday morning!

It says in Matthew, "SOME of them" on Sunday morning entered into the city ... actually, no, it says there, they already were in the city in the private palace of the high priest(s).

So what's this got to do with the TRUTH --- AS IT IS WRITTEN --- Jesus rose from the dead, "WHEN suddenly in the Sabbath's fullness there was a great earthquake"?

 

The subject of on which day of the week Jesus rose from the dead WILL NEVER REACH CONCLUSION for as long as some BASIC preconditions are met.

First, "IT IS WRITTEN".

Two, "It is written" the same in BOTH Old and New Testaments.

Three, That one at least busy oneself with RELEVANT REALITY, the reality namely, of WHICH "three days" make out the "three days" CONCERNED. Does one simply try to prove three days and nights thrown / counted together so that 'something' about them ends up "on the third day since ...", or, "at least 72 hours" after? Or, Does one concern oneself with _THE_ "three days", "OF THE PROPHET / PROPHETS ... CONCERNING THE CHRIST"?

Four, That the fullness, wholeness and oneness of EACH of the "three days" AS of them TOGETHER shall be accounted for "according to the Scriptures".

Now neither the Friday crucifixion Sunday resurrection nor the Wednesday crucifixion Saturday-Sunday resurrection theories obey these basics. They seem to be not even AWARE of them; or to ingeniously IGNORE them very effectively. In fact CORRUPTION has become the ART in which the rejectors of the “Sabbath’s”-Resurrection of Christ excel.

Most conspicuous transgression by these artists of these first principles of proper Bible understanding are,

One, How NO Scripture/s can be presented in support of their detestableness except AFTER SCRIPTURE HAS BEEN CORRUPTED SO AS TO SUIT THE THEORY. E.g., Mark 15:42 Matthew 28:1 Deuteronomy 21:23

Two, How especially the "middle" and second of the "three days" are carefully, and masterly, OBLITERATED so that it conveniently becomes of NO ACCOUNT.

Scarcely a violation of these fearless propagandists of their own version of the "three days", does not sort under these two gross offences.

 

re: "GE: Well, obviously there were NO guards at the tomb on Sunday morning!"


What about Matthew 28: 1 and 4?

 

Noticed this dialogue of interpretations.

 

GE:

WHEN, do you read, was the great earthquake, and WHEN do you read did the angel of the Lord descend IN MATTHEW 28:1-4?

I'll tell you. You will read TWO conflicting times of day and days.

In any and all English Bibles of BEFORE the 20th century you will read : "IN THE end of / late SABBATH / ON THE SABBATH / SABBATH .... TOWARDS / BEFORE the First Day".

They are all, true translation of the Greek manuscripts, no matter which because they are all exactly the same.

Then,
In most English Bibles of SINCE the 20th century, you will read : "AFTER THE SABBATH .... early ON the First Day".

They are all, COPIES (more or less) of Justin Martyr's CORRUPTION of Matthew 28:1, no matter how they may differ, they basically are the same FRAUD.

 

My post #66 disproves what you say as to His arising from "the heart of the earth" on the Saturday Sabbath. There was a return on the Sabbath of His Spirit to His Body. I also see you may not understand what most Christians believe happens to our Spirit and soul at death. You must believe they stay in the Body for a while. If so, can you show scripture to confirm? Scripture says at 3pm He gave up His Spirit.

This is the same day that He was crucified, and it did occur on Nisan 14, that day of preparation of Passover, Wednesday to be exact.

Scripture provides us the time when the Body expired, and His Spirit left to enter Paradise. For what purpose, or finding in scripture do you discount the clear words in this matter? He says three days, and three nights. That means 72 hours, and nothing less. I am not talking about His Body resurrection, but His Spirit returning to His Body. This will satisfy Scripture as to the "heart of the earth" and the Three Days.

The resurrection of His Body occurred on Sat/Sun at 6on, 72 hours after the stone was rolled into place at 5:999pm Wednesday going intoThursday. I've posted these views before in the threads, and this satisfies scripture of AFTER THREE DAYS.

And it also answers Luke, about the Three Days.

 

GE:

As far as I am concerned, believing with a clear conscience before God Almighty the judge of the heart and mind of man, to the best of both my knowledge and understanding "ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES" of the matter of the meaning of the "three days" of "three days' and three nights'" fullness, wholeness and oneness, "on the third day" of which Christ rose from the dead, I herewith confess and admit, I do not understand ANYTHING of what you are talking or writing, cannot accept ANY of it, and will not waste most precious God-given time, energy or LIFE for one moment on it, in the past, now, and for as long as I shall live by the grace of God.

BECAUSE, I AM A CHRISTIAN, A PROTESTANT CHRISTIAN, A REFORMED PROTESTANT CHRISTIAN with a Christian DUTY, that in every moment of my life, must and will keep me from paying attention to such horrific nonsensical heresy as this of yours, my dear Ituttut, to my regret, but at the same time to my utter relief and joy.

 

Well! I don't really know how to respond to you GE. I'll take the High Road with the remark "I see you leaving, not understanding what I have said." I'll leave it as is, and continue on happily in the Body of Christ. I know there are others in other places in His Body, and may not have as clear a view as where I am. You had some good points.