An articulate well balanced approach. What say you?

He chose us in Him is a much debated phrase from Ephesians 1:4. Nobody argues that the one doing the choosing is God and those being chosen are those who are presently “in Christ.”

One of the questions is:: How did God chose us in Him? Individually or corporately?

Certainly anyone who is “in Christ” was put there individually. So either God chose “us” twice, once corporately and once individually, or He chose us twice individually, which is absurd.

Individually we are members of Christ’s body, but collectively, corporately we are His body. Therefore Christ’s election in effect corporately elected His body, the bride of Christ, the church. The construction, us in Him puts Christ as the foundation of our election, hence the Redeemer/those redeemed as parallel elections.

He chose is in the middle voice indicating God chose Himself or chose something for His benefit. Thus we are chosen for His own possession.

Calvinists deny individual election during our lifetime. They say James 2:5 does not mean God chose folks who were rich in faith, keeping His promise to those who love Him. But that is exactly what it means. 1 Corinthians 1:26-31 also addresses temporal election. Ditto for 2 Thessalonians 2:13 where we were chosen through faith in the truth.

Now the “us” is a plural pronoun, so Paul’s use of the plural pronoun points to a corporate rather than an individual election.

Some argue that the election cannot be corporate because no communities exist. But neither do we exist as individuals before creation. So that argument is simply absurd

The choice was with reference to Christ, but opinions differ as to exactly what is being said. Some say, before the foundation of the world, we were chosen individually and put into Christ. But if we were “in Christ” before we were conceived, then we would not have been “children of wrath” (Ephesians 2:3). So that dog will not hunt.

We do know that Christ was chosen to be God’s lamb before the foundation of the world, because 1 Peter 1:20 says Christ was foreknown as the Lamb before the foundation of the world. Therefore when Christ was chosen to be God’s Redeemer, those Christ would redeem were chosen corporately. You do not choose a Redeemer without a plan of redemption. Hence the reference appears to be He chose us [corporately as the group to be redeemed – the target group of His redemption plan] in Him” - meaning when He was chosen as Redeemer.

This is the only view of Election that is consistent with all scripture.

 

Yes, and not one Calvinist responded to Rom 16:7.

Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

No one is "in Christ" until they believe. Andronicus and Junia believed on Jesus and were "in Christ" BEFORE Paul was.

The Calvinists ignored this scripture because they cannot refute it.

 

I would imagine none have responded because the question itself is quite inane.

Paul is simply saying that Andronicus and Junia were Christians before Paul himself became a Christian.

Of course you are lifting something from its context and trying to make it disprove something else--your typical modus operandi.

Is Paul's point in Romans 16:7 to discuss election? No, of course not. Therefore, the passage, as well as the phrase "in Christ" are not referring to election.

Context, authorial intent...these things are vitally important to interpreting the Bible. In this case, you are breaking context and trying to make Paul say something that is not even on his mind in this passage.

The Archangel

 

Well said! :thumbsup:

 

Now, just so you don't get your panties all in a twist, I'll tell you that I may not be addressing every point. Some don't need to be addressed, some I just don't feel like addressing at this time--as the family and I are about to go out for the day.

Ephesians 1:4 does not address the mechanism of God's choice. The text simply states we were chosen "in Christ." It doesn't say when we were chosen--except to say we were chosen before the foundation of the world. It does not say we were chosen when Christ was chosen.

You are missing the point that a group (in this case the Universal Church) is made up of individuals. So, the "us" can be the church and it can be individuals. The pronoun makes no distinction. It is much more likely that the "us" is referring to individuals--since Paul includes himself using "us" rather than the plural "you."

The construction "us in him" does not exist. This is the direct object and the indirect object of the sentence. For there to be a construction here you must reference the sentence. No matter how you want to do violence to the text to make your point, you simply cannot do it. This passage will never refer to Christ being chosen. This passage refers to the "us" being chosen.

The middle does not and cannot mean that God chose Himself. If there is a direct object, which in Ephesians 1:4 there is, it means that God has chosen the direct object for Himself. In this case, God has chosen "us" for Himself.

You really ought not to mess with something you are ignorant of (Greek, in this case).

Of course we deny election in our lifetime. What does Ephesians 1:4 say? When were we chosen? Before the foundation of the world.

Not to mention, but the Greek for "He chose" is an aorist verb, meaning that the choice happened at an undefined time in the past.

So, the notion that God's choice happens in our lifetime is in direct opposition to the text of Ephesians 1:4

And, none of the other verses mention election in our lifetime. You are reading that into the text as well.

You can argue that Christ was chosen from 1 Peter 1:20. But, you cannot read 1 Peter 1:20 into Ephesians 1:4.

I'll grant that this is your view of election. But it bears no resemblance to Scripture.

Over all, the problem with trying to teach you these things is that you simply will not learn.

A wise man would heed instruction. You, on the other hand, are going around writing post after post accusing me (me?!) of putting words into your mouth, etc. when I have posted your own words for you and everyone else to see.

At this point, I can't imagine anyone taking you seriously because rather than rest in simple scriptural fact, you are trying to convince everyone of something that simply is not there. You're like the man that believes 2+2=5. Though you are simply wrong, you cannot rest until the rest of the world agrees with you so you take to the air waives, the ballot box, the courtroom, etc. trying to prove yourself right rather than admit your error--and all this while no one gives any credence to your argument. A foolish course of action indeed.

The Archangel

PS. if I choose not to answer your upcoming post(s)...it is not because you've won the argument. It is simply because I tire of watching you bloody your head against a brick wall. At some point, the decent must turn his or her head to avoid the carnage. I have much more important things to do than to spend my time writing the same things over and over again to someone who will not listen. If you choose to remain unteachable, that's up to you.

 

Reply to Archangel

This is a typical rebuttal from Calvinism. It does not address how God put everyone "in Christ" in Ephesians 1:4 and yet Andronicus and Junia we "in Christ" before Paul. So first we have a change of words, Christians rather than "in Christ." Thus an evasion of the actual argument. Then we get the usual ad hominem, addressing the behavior of the opponent rather than the view. Then we get scripture nullification, since the main point of the verse was not election, but praise of workers, what Paul said can be ignored. Fiddlesticks. We are to live by every word of God. This verse is just another of the more than a dozen verses which show that Ephesians 1:4 does not mean God put foreseen individuals in Him before creation. And finally we get the "context dust" sprinkled over the false position of Calvinism, as it that assertion justifies a non-contextual misrepresentation of the verse.

"Modus Operandi"indeed!

 

Folks, amazing as it is, here is an actual effort to rebut my position rather than disparge me and misrepresent my position. Will wonders never cease!

"You are missing the point that a group (in this case the Universal Church) is made up of individuals. So, the "us" can be the church and it can be individuals. The pronoun makes no distinction. It is much more likely that the "us" is referring to individuals--since Paul includes himself using "us" rather than the plural "you." "

1) The "us" can be either the church or individuals! That is true and reflects the actual meaning of the Greek.

2) It is more likely to be referring to individuals because Paul includes himself in the group. This is also true. But here is what the passage actually is addressing, we, made of individuals, who are now, at the time of hearing Paul's letter, have received a package of spiritual blessings from the heavenly. The first of those Paul mentioned in this passage (Ephesians 1:3-12) is that "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world." So Paul addressing individuals who had been put in Him, says He chose us in Him. We are in Christ and therefore part of the corporately elected body of Christ, chosen before the foundation of the world. Therefore the fact that Paul is addressing existing individuals does not in the slightest suggest the pre-temporal election was not corporate.

But again, thanks for at least trying to defend your actual view.

 

But the behavior did not last. Next we get this:

"The construction "us in him" does not exist. This is the direct object and the indirect object of the sentence. For there to be a construction here you must reference the sentence. No matter how you want to do violence to the text to make your point, you simply cannot do it. This passage will never refer to Christ being chosen. This passage refers to the "us" being chosen."

The word construction when used to describe Greek words arranged according to their grammatical interaction is common. So "us in Him" refers to the construction of the prepositional phrase in Him modifying "us."

Then we get the misrepresentation that my point was this refers to Christ being chosen after I have posted time and time again that it refers to us being chosen corporately when Christ was chosen before the foundation of the world. But you do need to be able to read.

Next Archangel agrees with my position, God chose us for His own possession, and then indicates my position was wrong. Again, there appears to be a reading problem. Go figure.

Next Archangel, again demonstrates he cannot even understand English, when he says Ephesians 1:4 cannot refer to our lifetime. Of course it doesn't!!! Not to put too fine a point on it, when a corporate group is elected, then you must have a mechanism to put individuals into that group, and that mechanism is our individual election during our lifetime. Duh

And now we get another actual attempt to rebut my actual position, praise God:

Here is what Archangel managed to post: You can argue that Christ was chosen from 1 Peter 1:20. But, you cannot read 1 Peter 1:20 into Ephesians 1:4.

He says you cannot read Christ's election before the foundation of the world into Paul's mentioning of "He chose us in Him" before the foundation of the world. My response is of course you can, it is necessary. Christ was chosen as Redeemer. Therefore those He would redeem were chosen corporately also before creation. Two parallel elections, as indicated by the construction He chose us in Him.

Bottom line, Calvinism is defended with disparagement and misrepresentation. I have laid out how the doctrine of Election is presented in scripture. I have offered support for my position from scripture and shown why the Calvinist view is contrary to scripture.


1) How can we be individually in Christ before creation and by nature be children of wrath before God puts us in Christ?

2) How could Christians be in Christ before other Christians if God put everyone in Christ before anyone was created?

3) Why would God choose the poor in the eyes of the world, rich in faith, keeping His promise to those who love Him, if He had already chosen them individually before creation? James 2:5 only makes sense if Ephesians 1:4 refers to our corporate election before creation.

4) Why does 1 Corinthians 1:26-31 say God chose these kinds of people in the world, if He actually chose individuals before creating the world.

5) Why does 2 Thessalonians 2:13 say we were chosen through faith in the truth, if He chose us before we had faith in the truth.

6) If no charge can be brought against the elect, how can we be children of wrath, Ephesians 2:3?

 

According to the classic Arminian and Calvinist understanding of Ephesians 1:4 everyone that has been saved and everyone that will be saved was chosen as foreseen individuals before creation. My view is that God chose His Redeemer before creation and as a consequence chose corporately all those the Redeemer would redeem. Either view is completely consistent with Ephesians 1:4 with the two views differing on what it means to be chosen "in Him."

The way to resolve the issue of two views appearing to be a viable understandings of the text is to look at other verses and passages that impinge on the same issue to see if one view appears more consistent with the balance of scripture. When I say the verse is consistent with my view, the verse either does not say anything about being chosen before the person lived as a sinner, or does not imply election prior to the physical lifetime of the person.

In Matthew 22:14, at the end of the parable of the Marriage Feast, where the King looked over those called to the dinner, and chose to reject someone not wearing appropriate clothing, the text reads “For many are called but few are chosen.” I think the idea is that some who came were unwilling to trust in Christ, to so to speak, put on His protective propitiation. But no matter what, clearly those chosen were called, teaching election occurs during our lifetime.

In Matthew 24:22, we see that the Elect existed at the time they were referred to as the Elect, which is consistent with being chosen during their lifetime.

In Matthew 24:24, we see again that the Elect are folks living at the end times and it is not clear whether they could be deceived, but if they could the signs and wonders of the false teachers would deceived them. So this text again is consistent with being chosen during their lifetime.

In Matthew 24:31, we see the Elect gathered at the end of the age, again consistent with being chosen during their lifetime.

In Mark, the references are the same as in Matthew.

In Luke 18:7, the Elect cry out to God, indicating they are those who believe in God, again consistent with being chosen during their lifetime.

In Luke 23:35, we see Christ referred to as God’s Chosen One.

In Romans 8:33 we see that no one can lay a charge against God’s Elect, again consistent with being chosen during our lifetime unto salvation.

In Romans 16:13, we see that an existent person, Rufus is referred to as a choice man in the Lord, again consistent with being chosen and placed in the Lord.

In 1 Corinthians 1:26-28, we see that God chose us out of this world, clearly teaching we were chosen individually after creation, during our lifetime. Also those chosen, not many wise, not many mighty, not many well born, were chosen to shame those who value worldly treasures, folks that think others are ignorant, folks that think they are powerful, folks that think their birth circumstances places them above others.

In Ephesians 1:3-4, we see that God has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we would be holy and blameless before Him. The idea is that we have been the beneficiary of God’s blessings from before the foundation of the world, when God chose Christ to be His Redeemer, and as a consequence we were chosen corporately as the target group of believers who would be redeemed, then during our lifetime when we were placed in Christ we are covered with the grace granted those in Christ from all eternity, and so, at judgment we will be holy and blameless before Him because we are in Christ.

In Colossians 3:12, we see advice given to folks who are alive and referred to as chosen of God, again consistent with being chosen during our lifetime.

In 1 Timothy 5:21, we see angels referred to elect Angels because they are associated with Jesus. This establishes a possible pattern, entities associated with God’s Chosen One can be referred to as Elect as the consequence of the affiliation, such as being “in Christ.”

In 2 Timothy 1:9, Paul tells us that when we are “in Christ” we share in the purpose and grace granted those “in Christ” from all eternity.

In 2 Timothy 2:10, we have a very powerful verse in support of being chosen during our physical lifetime. Paul says, “For this reason [God’s work is not imprisoned] I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal life.” Paul is saying his work is for the sake of those who are chosen, or in other works for the sake of those God will choose. If they were already chosen, Paul’s work would not influence their salvation, it would be a done deal.

In Titus 1:1, we see Paul indicated his work as an apostle of Jesus Christ is for the faith of those chosen of God, again allowing the idea that his work is preparatory to being chosen.

In James 2:5, James teaches the same thing Paul teaches, that God chooses folks of faith, folks who do not value worldly treasures, who are the poor of this world, but rich in faith, folks who see their treasure in heaven, folks who are heirs to the kingdom which God promised to those who love him.

In 1 Peter 1:2, we again have a very important verse in support of being chosen during our lifetime. Folks alive at the time, are chosen according to God’s foreknowledge, or in other words according to God’s planned method of selection, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, the Holy Spirit sets us apart when He spiritually baptizes us into Christ, to obey Jesus – once in Christ we have the power to obey Jesus, not perfectly but faithfully – and be sprinkled with His blood – we are justified in Christ – may grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure – referring to process sanctification in Christ. This verse tells us how we are chosen and it applies to those living and in need of justification.

In 1 Peter 2:4, we see that when we are saved, newborns in Christ, we come to Christ, rejected by men but choice and precious in the sight of God. This is consistent with being altered by our conversion in Christ, such that in Christ no charge can be brought against us.

In 1 Peter 2:6, we see that Christ was precious and choice when chosen. Amen.

In 1 Peter 2:9-10, we see another power passage in support of being chosen during our lifetime. Verse 9 says that we are a chosen race, a people for God’s own possession, so we may proclaim the excellencies of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light, (verse 10) “for you once were not were not a people but now you are the people of God, you had not received mercy but now you have received mercy. This says that we were alive and not part of God’s chosen people, and then we received mercy and became part of God’s chosen people.

In 2 John 1:1, 13, we see John refer to existent ladies as Elect, again consistent with being chosen during our lifetime.

In Revelation 17:14, we see a nice summary verse of my Soteriology, those that are with the Lord are those who are the called and chosen and faithful. When we hear the gospel, we hear the call, when we receive or affirmatively respond to the gospel with all our heart, we are the called, and then when God accepts our faith as sufficient for His purpose and spiritually baptizes us into Christ we are the chosen, and during our spiritual baptism God converts us and protects our faith and gives us the Holy Spirit to help us walk humbly with our Lord, and therefore we are faithful.

 

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: fiddlesticks

 

Nice Van....you missed it on every verse.....very consistently wrong...sort of the result of reading someone like clark pinnock...open theist.
Your explanations once again deny the God of scripture.:thumbs::thumbs:

Hey Van...have you noticed the "folks" do not seem to be following with you on this?:1_grouphug:

 

Except that your view would seem to be foreign to what the HS meant and inspired paul to record for/to us!

 

Iconoclast, Jesusfan...right on target concerning van and his error in interpretation here.

- Peace

 

Yes...P4T.....he tried to run his ideas out here again.Archangel methodically dismantled each and every false idea...but he was unable to welcome this correction as of yet:thumbs::thumbs:

there is a kids toy they call whack a mole.....they moles pop up and get hammered back down.....He is popping up with the same error .over and over, like that game.

 

...and ya gotta love poundin' dem dare moles back in dem dare holes!

Rampant error needs to be pounded.

- Peace

 

LOL folks, did you see the gang's rebuttal. Fiddlesticks, you missed the meaning, referring to disparagement as if it was inspired, and on and on. They cannot defend their errant view of Ephesians 1:4.

When one does venture an opinion, the us is said to refer to individuals when it is plural. That dog will not hunt.

Calvinism rests on shoddy bible study from the 16th century. It is a relic from the dark ages. It is defended with ad hominems because it cannot be defended biblically. QED

 

Well...

The Apostles john and paul would disagree with you on this, were they part of 'shoddy" scholership?

 

You keep using this "QED" thing. In an earlier post you correctly defined it as "thus it is proven."

As I'm sure you know, placing "QED" at the end of a post doesn't actually prove anything.

No, quite the contrary, QED is reserved for a logical, systematic, or mathematical proof and the "QED" is added to emphasize the proof of some idea through the aforementioned logical, systematic, or mathematical process.

You have offered no proof. You have only offered opinion. QED does not refer to opinion. Had you offered a logical argument from the Greek as to the meaning of Ephesians 1:4 (and the surrounding text), then--and only then--could the QED statement apply. As it is you have not, nor can you offer said defense of your statements. Therefore, the only thing you have demonstrated by the use of "QED" is your own vast ignorance.

The Archangel

 

Think at this time...

van and his "evidence" has been found wanting, did NOT prove his made points, so would be seen as being in the court of Biblical opinion, "case closed, due to lack of sufficient evidence!"

 

LOL, now we get argumets about QED, rather than Ephesians 1:4, and claims that the Apostles held to Calvinism.

Anything and everything other than a defense of Calvinism.