How Do baptists See/Define the Church of God?

Repetition of an unsubstantiated statement does not substantiate it.

I haven't seen any.

Since an assembly can only be local and not universal the point is moot. There is no such thing as a universal church. Try family of God. The ordinances were never given to the family of God.

His what?? The family of God is growing numerically.
Christ is growing his assembly?? The statement doesn't even make sense unless you put "assembly" in the plural. Each Biblical assembly should be growing but sadly that is not the case. It never has been. True Christianity has always been in the minority suffering for the sake of Christ. Christ laid down his life for us all. If you want to debate Acts 20:28, Paul speaking to the assembly at Ephesus, particularly the elders who came from Miletus, I will get into it with you.

The family of God is made of all believers.
There is no such thing as a universal assembly.
You live in a house with your family.
Where is your universal house?
Words have meaning. We are not at liberty to change the meaning of words just to hold on to pet theologies, sentimental ideas. That is wrong and does injustice to the Word of God.

 

Where do you work?
Does your company make you work 24 hours a day. Is it still a company when business hours are over? Or does it cease being a company until the next time it meets when it opens its doors on the next business day? When you are not present at your company does that mean you are no longer an employee of your company? Do they take you off the payroll when you have a sick day?
Your company works (as far as you are concerned) in one place in one city. You can only be there when the doors are open for business. The company is not universal.

 

Sorry, you had just quoted Jesus Fan in your own post, which said:

That is what I was referring to, not reading carefully that it was an actual quote from someone else.

 

It is truly a nice, sentimental, traditional, wishy-washy feel-good idea about Biblical ecclesiology. But that is where it ends. Note--No scripture, no appeal to the Bible whatsoever, but only opinion. It is not a scriptural view and cannot be substantiated by the Bible. So why do you keep repeating this unbiblical mantra?

 

No problem.

I've made that same mistake before. :wavey:

 

that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Repetition of an unsubstantiated statement does not substantiate it.

Yes, he was speaking to a local church, but about the universal church.

Oh, so believers will never assemble together?

Not the same, nice try

Just cool your self off. Obviously I hit a nerve with you. There is a universal church. You can say there isn't, but that doesn't make it so. It's all the believers. Read Acts 28:28(forgot about that one before), Ephesians 5, Matthew 16:18. They are not speaking about one specific local church but about the Church, all believers.

Yes, words have meanings and we are using the meaning just fine. Just as I pointed out and you ignored, just because we are not assembled together at the very moment doesn't mean we are not a church.

You didn't get it at all did you. sorry if my illustration when over your head, or rather you chose to mock it because you know I'm correct.

My point was that your church, your local church, is still a church when you are there and whether the people are there or not. You said the universal church cannot be a church because we are not right not all assembled together. I countered that your church is still a church when you are not assembled together.

 

Look, please stop statements like this. It's uncalled for. I've quoted Scripture already so to say that we are not using Scripture is false. You sound like you are having a bad day.

 

CONTEXT:
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, (Hebrews 12:22-23)
--It is a heavenly scene.
Yes there will be an assembly (the word for church) in heaven. That is the only place where we are all assembled together, and it is the only place big enough!!

I will guarantee, that as you read our statement of faith and our constitution it will not be ONE and the same as yours. This was addressed to church at Ephesus, not any one-world-wide universal church. There is no such thing. However, every local church ought to be so unified. Every local church is a body; has one faith, has only one baptism. It is not that way all over the world, and you know it. Do you have the same baptism as believing Presbyterians?

Your philosophy. You don't have any scripture to back it up.

Demonstrate it through Scripture.

That is ironic.
Paul went on three missionaries journeys and established over 100 churches. Was he out of the will of God?
Every epistle is written to a local church or to a pastor of a local church? (local church still not important)?
Jesus himself addressed seven local churches in Revelation chapters two and three? I suppose Jesus was out of God's will too? Don't you believe Jesus is God? But God doesn't see local assemblies you say??

No, that is your flawed interpretation of the Bible.

 

I haven't seen any Scripture that supports the universal church theory, and when I have it usually refers to something else and I point it out.

First, the word "church" never existed, much less the concept of "universal church." They spoke Greek, remember? The word is ekklesia, "assembly." He was not teaching them about a universal anything. As Christ died and shed his blood for them at Ephesus so he did for every local assembly (that is founded on the Bible), just as Christ, by the power of his Holy Spirit dwells in every believer though there be but one Christ.

Did I say that? Don't put words in my mouth.
1. All believers will never assemble on this earth.
2. All believers will assemble in heaven.
3. Groups of believers will assemble as the Lord commands us in various assemblies, local assemblies that we call today "churches."

Repeating this rant won't make it true. You can assert it as much as you want but like I said, you can't change the meaning of words. Words have meanings, and we have no right to change their meanings. An assembly is an assembly and cannot be made universal no matter how hard you try.

I have read them all, and there is no reason why not a single one of them cannot be translated "assembly" as Young's literal and Darby's translation do. Assemblies are not universal and do not contain all believers. If you would study the subject out with a more open mind you might come to a different conclusion, but you have been brainwashed ever since you have become a Christian that this is the way it must be.

Yes, and just because you are not at work at this very moment does not mean your company doesn't exist. Your logic makes no sense.

Your illustration makes sense only for a local church.
My illustration makes sense only for a local church.
The company will exist whether you are present or not. It doesn't disappear if you are not present, and you don't cease to be an employee if you are absent for a day or two. But the company assembles; it is local; it can be seen with the visible eye; it is not invisible.

You cannot apply those characteristics to an invisible universal church that cannot be seen, has no function, cannot gather, cannot assemble, has no purpose, and simply is a figment of people's imagination.
It contradicts the very meaning of the word "assembly," a word in which you have to oppose and then change the meaning to make it fit your concept. What is the function of the universal church? It has none.

 

Irrelevant to my point.

so for the church. He never mentioned their church, but said church, singular. He died for the entire church, not just the one in Ephesians.

That's your argument against mine. Otherwise you are misrepresenting me. I didn't say that you said it either. Learn to read. I asked a question based on what you said, not that you said it.

true

dig ding ding, the church will assemble in heaven!
End of discussion. Universal church. all believers.

true

Stop it. read what I write. I have NEVER changed the meaning of the term. Do not accuse me of it again. Your church is still a church when they are not meeting. Just because the universal church will gather together in the end doesn't mean we cannot call it a church today.

universal assembly of believers. very well, doesn't matter to me. If you want to call your church a baptist assembly, that's all good too.

Not you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

you said...

Can't have it both ways.

no need for this comment. I've not been brainwashed and it's sad that you would make such a childish comment to me.

I never said anything of it. you said something about a company. do not mock my logic again. You have no business doing that to me.

no, it makes sense for a universal church as well.

you have no business being a mod. you have a very bad attitude. you didn't address my arguments but looked foolish by attempting to mock my logic. There is a universal church(assembly if you want to call it) of all believers and we will all meet together one day. our purpose right now to to build the church through spreading the gospel. (Christ said he will build his church. Wasn't speaking about a specific local church)We currently assembly locally at local assemblies, but will assemble together in the end.

I've given you 3 passages that speak of the church as a whole and not one specific church. you chose to address one of them(and failed) and ignored the rest. you admitted that all believers will assembly together one day. you say that church means assembly. so either you are talking about of both sides of your mouth or...well, that's exactly what you are doing.

 

David,

 

:applause::applause::thumbs:

 

You are somewhat confused again AIC. Have you done any study on the church? The Kingdom? Do you think they are identical?
Do you have one verse that demonstrates what you say?:type:
A mark of a true church is church discipline...who oversees and carries out "universal church discipline?

 

God does NOT see local assemblies, he sees The Body/Bride of Christ!

That is per the Bible![/QUOTE]

JF...quite to the contrary,Jesus knows exactly what takes place or does not take place in the local churches....read the letters to the SEVEN churches.
It is not a letter to the universal church, but he wrote to local churches naming particular members....I know your works


JBH....
you said;

we hear you say.....your assembly is still an assembly,when they are not assembled.

 

Irrelevant? How? You say you have posted Scripture that supports the universal church theory.
I said I haven't seen any Scripture posted that supports the universal church theory. The little I have seen has either been taken out of context (Heb.12:22,23 is a heavenly scene), or else it is easily refuted. So you simply call my statement "irrelevant."

He never mentioned their church? Wrong! he did.
Yes the church was mentioned by name, singular because it was the church at Ephesus, and the teaching was applied specifically to the church at Ephesus. There is no such thing as "the entire church." You are reading into the passage your own theory instead of allowing the Scripture to speak for itself.

And from Miletus, having sent to Ephesus, he called for the elders of the assembly, (Acts 20:17)
`Take heed, therefore, to yourselves, and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit made you overseers, to feed the assembly of God that He acquired through His own blood, (Acts 20:28)
--Now, how are these few elders from Ephesus going to feed a so-called universal church made up of all believers in the world. He is speaking only to the elders/pastors of the church at Ephesus. The verses between vs. 17-35 is Paul's speech to the Ephesian elders. He is not directing his words to anyone else but them.
God shed his blood for that assembly, the one at Ephesus. That is what it says. It goes directly contrary to what you want to believe, but that is what the Scripture says. You can't read into the Scriptures your own beliefs. Christ shed his blood for the Ephesian assembly. That is what Paul said and taught them. How else were the Ephesian elders to take Paul's words?

Your exact quote:

I don't know where you came up with that or why you said it.
But that is why I gave you the conclusions that I did.

Someday the Antichrist and false prophet will enter onto the stage of the earth. So do you also conclude that we are now in the Tribulation. A future event does not cause a present event. Again, a logical breakdown.
There will be a universal church/assembly in heaven--when all believers will be able to assemble in one place together. That cannot happen now. It is not a present reality, it is a future event. In the present it should be evident that an unassembled assembly is an impossibility--the adjective contradicting the noun.

Let's take your last statement and state it using proper terminology.
Just because the universal assembly which cannot assemble will gather together in the end, doesn't mean we cannot call it an assembly that cannot assemble today.
It doesn't make sense. Only God is omnipresent. Why are you trying to be. A church is local, visible, does things for the community around it, has its own pastor and deacons, cares for the people around it, and functions in a real existent way. You want to take this concept and turn into some mystical existential organism, not taught anywhere in the Bible, something that is totally non-functional, without purpose or design, and then say it is of God?? You try and give it Scriptural support but fail. You cannot change the meaning of words just to fit your own ideas.
assembly = congregation or assembly not universal.

If you define it as universal you deliberately change the meaning of the word. Words have meanings. Just because you have a different theology does not give you the right to change the dictionary.

No. Your misunderstanding causes you to make a false accusation.
An assembly is an assembly. Right now "churches" can only assemble locally. There is no such thing as a universal assembly in this present age!
After the rapture, or when we all get to heaven, then we will all be assembled together in heaven as it teaches in Heb.12:22,23. There will be a grand meeting or assembly of believers in heaven someday, but it is not now.

Two different events. Two different assemblies.

Then instead of constant arguing start looking at Scripture more objectively.

No, I used a company for an illustration. Did you understand it?

When we all gather together one day then there will be a universal church/assembly. Until that happens God has ordained that there be local churches, and that is what he has seen fit to work through. He has given instruction through pastoral epistles, and other parts of the Scripture for this very reason.

No universal church can ever function that way. A universal church has no function. The Great Commission was given to the local church who alone can properly carry out the Great Commission. When Jesus spoke those words in Mat.16:18, note these facts:
1. The "church" age hadn't even started. It started on the day of Pentecost.
2. There was no such thing as a church that was in existence at that time.
3. Look at an accurate translation again:
`And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it; (Matthew 16:18)
--The assembly that he started out with was his 12 disciples.

Now go to the end of Matthew:
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Matthew 28:19-20)
--The Great Commission was given to the disciples which in turn was passed on to the local churches. The evangelization of the entire world was left in the hands of 12 men. Then Jesus ascended into heaven. What if they failed? Christ had no back up plan. They were to go, teach, (make disciples), baptize, keep on teaching. In that process would be the establishment of many churches as was evident in the work of Paul.

That first assembly was 12 men.
The next one was over 3,000 and growing daily.

I have addressed as many as I remember you giving me.
If you don't accept what I give you that can't be helped.

 

and-I moreover unto-thee I-forth to-which-a-one thou thou-be a-Petros, and upon unto-the-one-this unto-the-one unto-a-rockiness I-shall-house-build-unto of-me to-the-one to-a-calling-out-unto, and gates of-a-hades not they-shall-force-hold-down of-it;

From Westcott & Hort GNT - Literal Translation


Where is assembly found in this verse.

ἐκκλησία Does it mean assembly or out called

 

The meaning is assembly.
The etymology is "called out." Often the etymology gives us insight into the word and the history but it is not necessary the meaning. One might gather that it is a "called-out assembly." But the fact is that the word simply means "assembly" or "congregation.'

An example to help.
The word "Sunday" simply means "first day of the week" to most of us.
The etymology of the word: sun + day = the day we worship the sun. That gives us some indication of the history of the word, how it came to be. But that is certainly not the meaning now. We don't define words according to it etymology.