Irrelevant? How? You say you have posted Scripture that supports the universal church theory.
I said I haven't seen any Scripture posted that supports the universal church theory. The little I have seen has either been taken out of context (Heb.12:22,23 is a heavenly scene), or else it is easily refuted. So you simply call my statement "irrelevant."
so for the church. He never mentioned their church, but said church, singular. He died for the entire church, not just the one in Ephesians.
He never mentioned their church? Wrong! he did.
Yes the church was mentioned by name, singular because it was the church at Ephesus, and the teaching was applied specifically to the church at Ephesus. There is no such thing as "the entire church." You are reading into the passage your own theory instead of allowing the Scripture to speak for itself.
And from Miletus, having sent to
Ephesus, he called for the elders of the assembly, (Acts 20:17)
`Take heed, therefore, to yourselves, and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit made you overseers, to feed
the assembly of God that He acquired through His own blood, (Acts 20:28)
--Now, how are these few elders from Ephesus going to feed a so-called universal church made up of all believers in the world. He is speaking only to the elders/pastors of the church at Ephesus. The verses between vs. 17-35 is Paul's speech to the Ephesian elders. He is not directing his words to anyone else but them.
God shed his blood for that assembly, the one at Ephesus. That is what it says. It goes directly contrary to what you want to believe, but that is what the Scripture says. You can't read into the Scriptures your own beliefs. Christ shed his blood for the Ephesian assembly. That is what Paul said and taught them. How else were the Ephesian elders to take Paul's words?
That's your argument against mine. Otherwise you are misrepresenting me. I didn't say that you said it either. Learn to read. I asked a question based on what you said, not that you said it.
Your exact quote:
Oh, so believers will never assemble together?
I don't know where you came up with that or why you said it.
But that is why I gave you the conclusions that I did.
dig ding ding, the church will assemble in heaven!
End of discussion. Universal church. all believers.
Someday the Antichrist and false prophet will enter onto the stage of the earth. So do you also conclude that we are now in the Tribulation. A future event does not cause a present event. Again, a logical breakdown.
There will be a universal church/assembly in heaven--when all believers will be able to assemble in one place together. That cannot happen now. It is not a present reality, it is a future event. In the present it should be evident that an unassembled assembly is an impossibility--the adjective contradicting the noun.
Stop it. read what I write. I have NEVER changed the meaning of the term. Do not accuse me of it again. Your church is still a church when they are not meeting. Just because the universal church will gather together in the end doesn't mean we cannot call it a church today.
Let's take your last statement and state it using proper terminology.
Just because the universal assembly which cannot assemble will gather together in the end, doesn't mean we cannot call it an assembly that cannot assemble today.
It doesn't make sense. Only God is omnipresent. Why are you trying to be. A church is local, visible, does things for the community around it, has its own pastor and deacons, cares for the people around it, and functions in a real existent way. You want to take this concept and turn into some mystical existential organism, not taught anywhere in the Bible, something that is totally non-functional, without purpose or design, and then say it is of God?? You try and give it Scriptural support but fail. You cannot change the meaning of words just to fit your own ideas.
assembly = congregation or assembly not universal.
universal assembly of believers. very well, doesn't matter to me. If you want to call your church a baptist assembly, that's all good too.
If you define it as universal you deliberately change the meaning of the word. Words have meanings. Just because you have a different theology does not give you the right to change the dictionary.
Not you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.
No. Your misunderstanding causes you to make a false accusation.
An assembly is an assembly. Right now "churches" can only assemble locally. There is no such thing as a universal assembly
in this present age!
After the rapture, or when we all get to heaven, then we will all be assembled together in heaven as it teaches in Heb.12:22,23. There will be a grand meeting or assembly of believers in heaven someday, but it is not now.
you said... Can't have it both ways.
Two different events. Two different assemblies.
no need for this comment. I've not been brainwashed and it's sad that you would make such a childish comment to me.
Then instead of constant arguing start looking at Scripture more objectively.
I never said anything of it. you said something about a company. do not mock my logic again. You have no business doing that to me.
No, I used a company for an illustration. Did you understand it?
you didn't address my arguments but looked foolish by attempting to mock my logic. There is a universal church(assembly if you want to call it) of all believers and we will all meet together one day.
When we all gather together one day then there will be a universal church/assembly. Until that happens God has ordained that there be local churches, and that is what he has seen fit to work through. He has given instruction through pastoral epistles, and other parts of the Scripture for this very reason.
our purpose right now to to build the church through spreading the gospel. (Christ said he will build his church. Wasn't speaking about a specific local church)We currently assembly locally at local assemblies, but will assemble together in the end.
No universal church can ever function that way. A universal church has no function. The Great Commission was given to the local church who alone can properly carry out the Great Commission. When Jesus spoke those words in Mat.16:18, note these facts:
1. The "church" age hadn't even started. It started on the day of Pentecost.
2. There was no such thing as a church that was in existence at that time.
3. Look at an accurate translation again:
`And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it; (Matthew 16:18)
--The assembly that he started out with was his 12 disciples.
Now go to the end of Matthew:
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Matthew 28:19-20)
--The Great Commission was given to the disciples which in turn was passed on to the local churches. The evangelization of the entire world was left in the hands of 12 men. Then Jesus ascended into heaven. What if they failed? Christ had no back up plan. They were to go, teach, (make disciples), baptize, keep on teaching. In that process would be the establishment of many churches as was evident in the work of Paul.
That first assembly was 12 men.
The next one was over 3,000 and growing daily.
I've given you 3 passages that speak of the church as a whole and not one specific church. you chose to address one of them(and failed) and ignored the rest. you admitted that all believers will assembly together one day. you say that church means assembly. so either you are talking about of both sides of your mouth or...well, that's exactly what you are doing.
I have addressed as many as I remember you giving me.
If you don't accept what I give you that can't be helped.
