ANY here hold to/teach 'Lordship salvation?"

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
Yes if they are living like the lost, they are lost according to scripture.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

 

The level of talking past each other in this thread is very unfortunate. Almost everyone is protecting some turf that is not even being encroached upon by others.

Now, to deal with the matter at hand...

Lordship salvation does not preach/teach sinless perfection. Lordship salvation (which, for the record, requires that Jesus be both "Savior and Lord") is the only true, biblical option for those who wish to be believers. After all, are we not commanded to "make disciples" not "converts?"

The issue is important because there are some out there (not sure if there are some here) who preach/teach that you only need believe in Christ for salvation and you don't have to show evidence of a changed life. So, in other words, there are some who would say you can live life like you want--sinning all you want, doing every thing which is in contradiction to God's word, living in rebellion against God Himself--and, as long as you claim Jesus as Savior, you'll be fine. This is a lie straight from the pit of hell.

There simply must be evidence of a changed life. But, it isn't that kind of "must." We do not say there must be evidence to gain salvation (that would be works-salvation). We say there must be evidence of salvation because of what God has already done.

Now, in 1 Corinthians, Paul is crystal clear on the matter:

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV)
​

Paul is saying that those who do these things--sexual immorality, idolatry, adultery...--will not enter the kingdom of heaven, even if they claim Jesus as Savior. Notice v. 11 "And such were some of you. But you have been washed, you were sanctified,..."

Paul is obviously talking to believers here saying that some of them were idolaters and adulterers (among other things). But, now, since coming to Christ they have been changed--obviously stopping their previously sinful ways. Now, perhaps they didn't perfectly stop their sinful ways, but something is noticeably different--there has been a transformation.

Pastor and author Mark Dever gives us a good way to think about this. I will quote him at length:

I often tell my congregation that when it comes to battling sin in our lives, the difference between Christians and non-Christians is not that non-Christians sin whereas Christians don't. The difference is found in which sides we take in the battle. Christians take God's side against sin, whereas non-Christians take sin's side against God. In other words, a Christian will sin, but then he will turn to God and his Word and say, "Help me fight against sin." A non-Christian, even if he recognizes his sin, effectively responds, "I want my sin more than God." (emphasis original) [1]
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As Dever helps us see--the Lordship of Christ must be present in our lives if we are to be considered Christians by ourselves or by others.

The Archangel


[1] Mark Dever, What Is A Healthy Church?, (Wheaton, IL: Crossway, 2007), 40

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

I never said David had the indwelling Spirit, I said he had the Spirit upon him. One of my arguments against Calvinism is that people believe before they are regenerated, that OT saints believed without the indwelling Spirit.

 

The argument against Mark's definition (though in general terms it is good), is, it gives no timeline and it can't. Therein lies the fault. If the "Christian doesn't repent right away" is he still a Christian? If he battles against his sin for a week, and then gets the victory was he considered by those around him a Christian for that week? What about a month, or a year? Only God knows the heart and the struggles a believer goes through. Mark is judging the heart. He is putting himself in the place of God and judging others; only God can do that. He will look at a person after a month of struggling and conclude that that person is not truly saved because Christ is not "Lord of his life." That may be a totally false statement, for only God knows the heart, not Mark.

 

I am not a Calvinist, however that is exactly what the scripture says. I believed before I was saved. I just did not have faith before I was saved. At the moment of faith I was saved and that faith incluided repentance accepting Jesuse as Lord. Today the Sprit indwells a person where he did not in the OT times.
So to be saved a person has to accept Jesus as Lord. They are surrendered to Him being their personal Master or they are not saved. So yes Lordship salvation is the only way to be saved.

 

The problem with your view FAL is that you would have judged many persons who were truly saved as unsaved. You would probably have judged Lot as unsaved, and most certainly judged Samson as unsaved. You would have likely judged David as unsaved for committing adultery and having Uriah killed. You would probably have judged Solomon unsaved for having many wives and concubines and allowing groves to be built for idols. Yet we know from the scriptures all these men were saved. So, be careful how you judge.

No one is saying we have a license to sin. I do not believe DHK believes that whatsoever. All I am saying is that works do not save us or keep us, else those men I mentioned would have lost their salvation. We are saved by trusting Jesus to take away our sins, and then obey him in love and gratitude, not to keep ourselves.

 

Apparently you don't read carefully and don't know my argument. Don't post until you do.

If you read the rest of Scripture, it says, "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." (1 Corinthians 6:11)

Since you didn't read my post carefully you don't know what I believe. I never said repentance is not necessary. What you say is slander. What you say is against BB rules.

What is total error? The total error is that you don't seem to know what the gospel is? If you don't know what the gospel is then you tell me, what is the consequence of that?

 

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

We all can know the heart by how one lives.
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
DHK I am not trying to be smart here but I see why you cannot accept that repentance is needed for salvation. It is because you do not understand repentance. It is that simple. If you understood what repentance means you would stop denying what the Lord says in His word. Every person has to repent to be saved. If they do not they are not saved according to scripture and if they continue in sinning or at some point return to sin (some call it backsliding) that is the evidence they have not been born again (saved).

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.

 

You've preached repentance is not necessary for one to be saved. You argue it is no longer needed for salvation, as you wrongly state the NT epistles leave it out, thus unecessary.

This isn't the first time you've taught this on BB.

No slander here whatsoever. But it's all good when you say "shut up" "stop posting" and other prattle. Correct? I mean, it only matters who it is coming from, right?

I know what you teach, it's plain to see.

Here is some of it:

Spare me with your "not reading clearly" condescension.

Unbelievers are to repent to be saved. You say otherwise.

Also, I know clearly and concisely what the Gospel is.

 

DHK please stop trying to bully people with your status as moderator. No one is slandering you. Every time someone disagrees with you and proves their point with the word of God you accuse them by claiming they are violating the BB rules.

 

Exactly.

This is clearly what is going on here.

Thank you freeatlast.

 

First off, it's obvious you don't know Mark. I do. I have seen (with my own eyes) Capitol Hill Baptist Church and its elders in action from the inside. I have intimate, though sometimes second-hand knowledge of how this church and its pastor work. You could not be more off in your comments.

Second, you are trying to impose a timeline understanding that is not scriptural. There is no timeline and there shouldn't be. It is not as if all growth is steady and it isn't as if there are not set-backs in a Christian's life.

As Mark would argue--we do not want to take a snapshot of people's lives. We want to view their lives in large chunks. Having said that, it is possible for someone to have great fruits of repentance and faith and live as a Christian, a Pastor, an Elder, etc. for, say, 20 years and sin in such a way that it does call one's salvation into question--because of unrepentant sin (taking sin's side against God, desiring your sin more than God).

In this case, your timeline assumption falls apart completely. It is also painfully obvious that you do not know of Mark's ecclesiology.

The issue is--at any point in someone's walk--were are you on sin? Do you take God's side against sin or sin's side against God? At any point, a true Christian--who might be sinning--is open to correction, repentance, etc. A non-Christian will not be open to any of that, desiring sin more than God.

You are incorrect, Mark is not "judging the heart." Mark is evaluating the heart based on the actions that proceed from the heart. In other words, he is inspecting the "fruit" of Christians and determining what kind of person this fruit is coming from--Christian or non-Christian. This is one of the things Pastors are required to do with those of their own churches and this is one thing that we as Christians are called to do with other believers.

The issue is not the "struggle," as you put it. The issue is what is going on during the struggle. A true Christian will struggle well and long and hard--maybe even life-long. And, the true Christian will struggle against these things (sin) because of taking God's side against sin and that war will rage for the entirety of his or her life.

The Archangel

 

No you cannot. You would have judged Lot as one of the most ungodly people on the face of the earth because of the acts that he did, but God declared him just and righteous. You don't know the heart.

I recently heard the testimony of a man who said he was saved 20 years ago. For 20 years he lived in sin. He lived a miserable life. He got into drugs and all kinds of sin, though he knew he was saved. Just now he got his life right with God. Now he is holding regular Bible studies with others. Are you going to judge him to? I know you are. You think you can take the place of God. You are arrogant and think you are omniscient and can know the hearts of man.

Did I really say that? Go back and read my post.

You never understood my post or read it carefully did you?

Go find out what the verse means.

 

I think it is you that does not understand repentance. The scriptures say God repented, is God a sinner? The scriptures say Judas repented, was he saved? No. Judas repented in that he realized he had sinned, but he never turned to Jesus for salvation.

In Luke 13 Jesus shows what repentance is. It is turning from self-righteousness. It is admitting and confessing we are sinners and not worthy of earning salvation. It is turning to Jesus only as the person who can save you.

Jesus alone saves you, and Jesus alone keeps you. Yes, he commands us to "sin no more", but in reality we all fail at times. Nevertheless, he is faithful to save all those who come to him, not one shall be lost

 

DHK, Jesus said we can know and I believe that. A repentant new heart does not practice sin. That is all there is to it. We shall know them by their fruit. We can know.

 

This is what man can not always discern. Only God knows what is happening here. The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it. Certainly not man.

 

Where does Jesus say you can know?

 

Like I said it is clear that some do not understand repentance. God repented. He changed His mind. The bible does not say Judas repented towards God. He did not have faith.

 

You usually make reasonable arguments. This is one not however, Repentance is dependent on context as is most everything else. Your comparison is apples and oranges.